Another responsible NRA member

“The statistics are kinda flawed when you say there are over 30,000 gun deaths in this country every year. I once did a paper and analyzed those numbers. The year was 98 or 99 and the total gun deaths reported for that year were around 38,000. I broke that number down and found that that number included all firearms deaths. Accidents were right around 2500 for that year, and they also included justifiable homicide and police killing people into the grand total. The suicides with gun were also included, at around 18,000 that year. That number seems high, but then I did a comparison to countries that had absolute gun bans such as Scotland, Japan and Ireland, just to name a few. The per capita suicide rates in those countries were much higher than in the US. Even though they had a ban on guns, their citizens killed themselves using more inventive means at a higher ratio. Statistics can generally be made to reflect whatever you like, however you like to present it.

Those numbers were rounded, I did the research once a long time ago and I am not doing it again. Feel free to do the research yourself if you would like to find out for yourself.”

“Not sure where you got your stats from SB.
World Health Organization suicide rates. Well I guess if you look to Isolate Scotland from the UK to prove your point.

UNITED KINGDOM 99 11.8 3.3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 99 17.6 4.1

Yes, and just keep peddling the line about cars kill people. Right out of the NRA propaganda handbook.

And as for crime, I'm sure Prosecutor will soon mention that flawed comparison between the UK and America. They just keep trotting out the same stuff and kids keep getting shot.”

“Hey Y2, any responses for the "only outlaws will have knives" thread LOL.

Your country is a living laboratory proving the NRA case that without guns another tool will be used.”

“y2 made a great point. Make statistics make your point. I broke down the united kingdom into it's smaller countries to make my point. He used the entire kingdom to disprove my numbers. Both ways are accepted, they just have different outcomes. Statistics really shouldn't be believed. Or should they?????”

“i love how every time this thread gets brought up people yell,"hey, don't blame the NRA for that"

and then those same people will post on a "liberals suck thread" when some idiot does/says something dumb.

and the same people who post articles on this thread will say, "hey, don't blame all liberals for that"”

“Studies show that a load of BS can be made to look authoritative by prefacing it with the phrase 'studies show'.”

“Canadian Gun Registration Program; costed the tax payers $1 billion...some studies say it's more like $1.5 billion, and that it will top $2 billion by 2007.

Real criminals still haven't registered their guns.....and legitimate gun owners who refused, or rebel against this law will be labelled as criminals. Confiscation is in the air!!!”

“To be honest I do blame the NRA for this partially. The effective campaigning and lobbying they do. The way they go after any anti-gun politician in and marginal area, means they are actively campaigning for fewer restrictions on guns, and indirectly more guns. YOu have more guns and you're going to get more shootings.

Manuka. Come on now, you're a smart guy. A) There are restrictions on carrying knives in the UK too.
b) yes people will always find ways to hurt each other.
c) but why make it simple for them to get the most effective tool to commit crime.

Given the choice of a kid running around school with a knife of an automatic firearm, which is the easier situation to deal with.”

“Well Y2 (sarcasm font ON) with the automatic firearm the kid will run out of ammo pretty quickly and then be much less dangerous than a kid with a knife. (Sarcasm font OFF)

Also you require a Federal permit to have possession of an automatic firearm, something no kid in the country has. Perhaps you are confusing this with a semi automatic or self loading firearm.

There are already laws to prevent this, so what you are proposing is prohibition. But then the exceptions start, and the problem is who should still be permitted firearms?
Not police, plenty of examples where police have misused firearms, not National Guard, at least one National Guard small arms instructor killed everyone at work and the anti gun faction always cite the "one is too many". Not the Military, lots of examples of servicemen killing spouses with issued firearms.
In locations that do have total prohibitions such as Washington DC, New York City, and New Jersey (for carry) the extremely wealthy and/or politically well connected have proved that they can be exempted and these laws only apply to the 'little people'.

So unless you are able to make a prohibition that affects everyone, and prepared to make punishment for possession so drastic that it is not worthwhile for anyone to try this, it is a losing proposition.

In NYC it is illegal to carry a knife, so the young thugs carry sharpened screwdrivers.
Where is the solution to that ? How about carrying a large wrench or hammer ? people bent on evil can make anything a weapon. The NRA argument is to accept that as truth and allow the honest people to carry the means of defending themselves.

There was a huge fuss in NJ when a senator proposed amending to a 'shall carry' law. Opponents said it would be turning NJ into a wild west like Miami (which is South, not West). Pennsylvania and Connecticut two states in the same area have Always had 'shall carry' laws, apparently without the mayhem cited in Miami.

Basically the 'shall carry' restoring the constitutional right to 'bear' arms to the law abiding does not cause a problem. Increased restriction has worked about as well as alcohol prohibition in the 1920's making criminals of the law abiding, and shifting the profit from taxable business to untaxable criminals.”

“Why is it that people can never accept the fact that accidents happen? Most accidents happen because someone does something stupid, or someone doesn't pay attention when they should. When does the often heard cry of "One is too many" apply to other legal activities? In 2000 there were 774 accidental shootings in america. There were also 3482 drownings, 1314 were children. When is one too many where drownings are concerned? A far greater number of people shoot resposibly every year. While it is unfortunate that a 4 year old was killed because the adults weren't careful enough it was still an accident. I can recall quite a few other accidents from this area that involed ATVs or other non child friendly activities. In one instance the parents allowed their 9 year old daughter and her little friend to ride a 600cc 4 wheeler and they got hit on the road by a car and both died. Where is the outrage there? I learned how to handle guns safely even before I can remember. I began shooting at about 6. I can't even count the thousands upon thousands of rounds I have fired for work or recreation and never had a close call. The vast majority of gun owners have had the same experience I have had. Accidents do happen, they are unfortunate and most are preventable. To roast an entire group of people by the action of a few makes no sense at all.
last edited: 5/31/05 12:56:19 PM”

“Why do people never accept that life can be dangerous. Why make it more dangerous? You sure you're not with the NRA SB. This is exactly the same rubbish they spout.”

“i wonder how many people each year are killed by flamethrowers.

betcha not too many.

as far as i know, the consitution doesn't specify what types of bullets or guns are legit.

i want a flamethrower dammit, it's my god given right.
last edited: 5/31/05 1:03:48 PM”

“I can't believe you people get so worked up over a typical Vile Man thread. ;-)”

“It passes the time stovie, sheesh...

Sacco, no flamethrower!!!!!”

“Awww… lookit Stovie – he’s jealous.”

“Sacco, no flamethrower!!!!!”
squirrelbait
2:36:50 PM


sounds like someones got an irrational fear of fire.

typical liberal thinking.”

“Here in Ohio we just celebrated one year of freedom to carry concealed weapons. Crime is down and there were ZERO mishaps.”

“do you ohio-ins allow flamethrowers?”

“No, we are a state of responsability. Not extremes like Kalifornia.”

“The death penalty has been proven not to be a deterrant to crime. What makes you think that people, who commit crimes without fear of consequences, are all of a sudden "scared straight "because of the possibility that you may be carrying a gun?


BTW, Nigal. New York City has the toughest gun laws in the country and we are the safest large city in America. I don't want to say that all of you folks' reasoning ios flawed, but, at the very least, you are assuming that the reason for a drop in crime is because of loosening up of gun laws. You may just not be taking other factors into account...
last edited: 5/31/05 1:51:35 PM”

“whatever.

i'm so sick of you liberal fearmongers blocking my constitutional right to carry a flamethrower.

you all make me sick.”

“Well,

death penalty = 20+ years of free food and board and there's always a possibilty for getting off death row.

Failure Drill = two in the chest and one in the head with no chance of appeal.”

“Anyone get the blood alcohol level of the shooter?”

“Sacco, let's leave the guns home for the Harriman trip. We can have a good, old fashioned rock fight!”

“"i'm so sick of you liberal fearmongers blocking my constitutional right to carry a flamethrower.

you all make me sick.”

As long as youi're licensed and tested flame away. I don't care. We can own automatic weapons too.”

“And you can guarantee that the "good guys" will win all those confrontations?”

“No, but if the bad guy is armed and the good guy is not it will be guantanteed that the good guy will lose.

Their only hope is the bad guy is not really that bad, but some of them are.

Time to cite that "one is too many" LOL”

“Flamethrowers are cool!”

“licensing? testing? sounds like registration to me.

registration is one small step from confiscation.

it all sounds like typical liberal duplicitous, underhanded political manuvering to me.”

“Yes, there's many criminals out there thinking, "I'm not going to kill this person as I'll only spend the rest of my days behind bars."”

““And you can guarantee that the "good guys" will win all those confrontations?”

Now you’re just being silly Treebeard.

“Well, we can’t guarantee that bad things won’t happen so why even try? “, doesn’t work on me. A properly trained, tested and licensed gun carrier does have a distinct advantage over the common criminal. Can I guarantee the good guys will win every time? Hell no. Then again I can’t guarantee you won’t shlt in your pants before the close of the day. This doesn’t mean you should wear a diaper 24/7 though.
:)”

“sacco, did you just call me a liberal???”

“treebeard, as long as it's not a cock fight.

the liberal PETA freaks have already outlawed them.


-guess the movie:

"you mean you'll put down your rock, and i'll put down my sword and we'll kill each other like civilized people?"”

“Yes, Manuka. But, when you are walking down the street and you are taken by surprise, you are at an automatic disadvantage, right off the bat. Yes, there are incompetants. But, that goes for either side. And don't give me that sh_t about how well trained the general public is. I don't believe it for one second!”

“You boys are getting nasty now. Calling peeps Liberal, oh my. ;-)”

“sacco, did you just call me a liberal???”
squirrelbait
3:01:14 PM


yes. you've got an irrational fear of fire so you're blocking my constitutional right to own a flamethrower.

pinko-commie bassturd.”

“"And don't give me that sh_t about how well trained the general public is. I don't believe it for one second!”

That's just it. CCW carriers are not the general public. In most every state that allows CCW permits they have to be trained. Besides, as Manuka said, not having a gun won't save your bacon either.”

“I'm not being silly, Nigal. Geez man, is this that cut and dried in your mind? I will never walk down the street with a gun. It just ain't gonna happen. Guess what! I've been walking streets for 50 years! So have all my friends. Hey, get this! We've been unarmed all the freakin' time! Ain't that a kick in the ass? And wowie f_cking zowie! Here's another truth! We're alll still walking those streets, and we're all unscathed!


Holy sh_t balls, batman!!!!”

“That's not true!! I love fire, I love accellerants!!! I've even been blown up once... C'mon, take it back”

“I have never given you that sh1t treebeard, you are now getting just silly.

We will be in bad shape if all laws are based around your beliefs Tree.”

““I'm not being silly, Nigal. Geez man, is this that cut and dried in your mind?"

It is when you say things like this...

"I will never walk down the street with a gun."

No one wants you to or says you have to. Just don't stand in my way doing so. Ya gotta admit, wanting guarentees the good guys will win every time is a bit silly. Come on...you can admit it. :)”

“i'll take it back when you join in the fight to get me a flamethrower dammit!!!”

“I'm still going around unarmed. I respect what you do as long as you don't hurt anyone. If you do, then you take what the law gives you. But, don't belittle me for my beliefs...”

“Then you missed the point, Nigal. I was attacking your view of thinking that the Ohio law you spouted was solely responsible for your drop in crime. In context, it was all part of the same point.”

“Sacco, what movie was that? Tell me, or I will throw a rock at your head!”

“eeeek!

the princess bride, wesley says it to andre the giant.

please don't shoot!”

“bet treebeard wouldn't have been so brave with his rock if i had my flamethrower.”

“Ok! (putting the rock down)”

“Nigal/Manuka

Seriously, guys. I can see why you thought my point was silly. But, i think it was taken out of context. Really what I wanted to get across originally (before I went on a little tear) was the fact that I think there are other factors that help reduce crime. I'm nowhere near convinced that opening up more people to carry permits is a positive answer. But, this is just one of the many ways we differ on this issue. We've been down this road many times, right? I don't really think we need to rehash them, considering I know where you guys are at on it and vice-versa.
last edited: 5/31/05 2:21:21 PM”

““I'm still going around unarmed. I respect what you do as long as you don't hurt anyone. If you do, then you take what the law gives you. But, don't belittle me for my beliefs...”


I wasn’t belittling your beliefs. You asked an asinine question in order to prove your point and I called it silly.

“Then you missed the point, Nigal. I was attacking your view of thinking that the Ohio law you spouted was solely responsible for your drop in crime. In context, it was all part of the same point.”

Spouting? SPOUTING!? What am? A frickin’ tea pot now? LOL! I stated that we had one year with the new CCW laws and crime was down. Both are true. You do the math.”