Another responsible NRA member

“everyone can have and carry a handgun, but you need to pass a state competancy test every five years, or when you change guns. Make this licence tied to a particular gun, so that if you change guns you need to take a new test, and to make it slightly more difficult for a psycho to build up an armory. Those who want to arm themselves to the teeth would have to make regular visits to the local police station. They can still have whatever guns they want, but they'll have to do a little work for it.

So your solution is to make it harder for law-abiding citizens to own guns, while not addressing the roots of crime and violence or the number of illegal weapons out there. BRILLIANT!!!!!!! That'll work.”

“Y2, it is easier to get marijuana and cocaine on the streets of Chicago than guns. Even though handguns have been banned in Chicago since 1984, the Chicago police seize over 10,000 illegal firearms every year. It is impossible to get rid of firearms with a ban. And Professor Lott has found out that gun control only increased violent crime in England, Canada and Australia.”

“ shotguns and rifles can be exempt from this

But, but, but shotguns turn people into psycho killers like in that article USA posted!

You're not very intellectually consistent on this matter, y2. Tsk, tsk.”

“No, that's your warped interpretation Mutt.

We weren't talking about the roots of crime.

One of the reason it's so easy for an "outlaw" to get a gun so cheaply and easily is that there are so many out there. You're away backpacking, someone breaks into your house, how many guns do they get?

People like to use the Driving comparison. I need to pass a test to have a car - I need to renew it every five years, I lose that licence if I abuse the right (and get caught).”

“Professor Lott used an incidental comparison btw. It's debunked in the UK and in Australia for that matter.

Prosecutor - does the 'war on drugs' at least keep the street prices higher though?

Another interesting thing might be to make the last recognized owner responsible, somewhat, for what happens to a gun when it's sold if it's used for a crime. If the gun is sold, then you have to take reasonable care who it's sold to. If you don't take that care, then you're fined, say $500 - rising to $1,000 for a recognized gun store or seller.

I need to go have to have a bunch of things in place to own and drive a car. It doesn't stop law-abiding people driving though.”

“In the course of a lengthy Usenet debate over Lott's book, More Guns, Less Crime attention focused on what appeared to be a throwaway statement on page 3 of the book, that in 98 per cent of cases where a gun was used defensively, it was merely brandished, without being fired.

Challenged to give a source for this claim, Lott offered several seemingly contradictory accounts before saying that the number came from a survey he personally had conducted in 1997. However, he said, the data had been lost in a disk crash. Moreover, there were no original data records. The survey had been conducted by student volunteers, and Lott had forgotten their names.

At this point things became truly bizarre. As everyone is aware by now, 'on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog'. One of Lott's most vehement supporters had been a woman named Mary Rosh, a former student who wrote glowing testimonials to Lott's fairmindedness and econometric skills, not to mention a 5-star review of More Guns, Less Crime on Amazon.com, headed 'Save your Life: Buy this Book'.

By pure chance, a blogger named Julian Sanchez (a libertarian opponent of gun control, as it happens) noted the surprising fact that Mary Rosh and John Lott had identical IP addresses. After a little detective work eliminated some innocent explanations, Lott was confronted with the facts, and confessed that he and Mary Rosh were one and the same.”

“Professor David Mustard, the co-author of Lott's study, has conceded that there were serious flaws in their study - flaws that seriously undermine the conclusions. Mustard was deposed under oath in the Ohio concealed handgun case Klein v. Leis. Mustard admitted that: 1) the study "omitted variables" which could explain that changes in the crime rate are due to reasons other than changes in CCW laws, and 2) the study did not account for many of the major factors that Mustard believes affect crime including crack cocaine, wealth, drugs and alcohol use, and police practices such as community policing. These serious flaws completely undermine Lott's findings.

We and others find numerous errors in Lott and Mustard's study which bias their findings, and little support for their conclusions that RTC [Right To Carry] laws reduce violent crime."
(Daniel Webster, Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research)

One would have expected that, given the problems with Lott's model, it would have gone back to the drawing board.... [Lott] deserves failing marks for pressing policy makers to use his results despite the substantial questions that have been raised about his research. Lott's results do not provide credible evidence one way or the other."
(David Hemenway, Harvard School of Public Health in the New England Journal of Medicine)

"If somebody had to say which way is the evidence stronger, I'd say that it's probably stronger that the [CCW] laws are increasing crime, rather than decreasing crime" said Professor John Donohue of Stanford who described Lott's work as "deeply flawed" and "misguided."
(Professor John Donohue, Stanford, in the Los Angeles Times)

"Shall issue laws have resulted, if anything, in an increase in adult homicide rates."
(Professor Jens Ludwig, Georgetown University)

Some of Lotts other ideas

Even gun advocate Gary Kleck found Lott's concealed carry findings implausible, and said "More likely, the declines in crime coinciding with relaxation of carry laws were largely attributable to other factors not controlled in the Lott and Mustard analysis"

Arm Teachers to Stop School Shootings

In response to a wave of school shootings in the late 1990's, Lott proposed arming teachers - thereby putting loaded guns into many classrooms. While we have great respect for the nation's teachers, the inevitable consequence of Lott's proposal would be terrifying instances of lost or stolen guns circulating in our schools. Imagine a new "prank" in school, "lets steal the teacher's gun."

Adding Minorities and Women to Police Causes Crime to Increase

Lott claims that violent crime goes up when police departments increase diversity by adding women and African American men to the police force. Lott claims violent crime increases by seven percent for every one percent increase in African American police officers. Ironically, Lott believes crime goes down by seven percent if untrained private citizens, mostly white men, walk around with hidden handguns due to weak CCW laws.
("Subject to Debate," Police Executive Research Forum, May 1998)

Wealthy Criminals Deserve Preferential Legal Treatment

Lott has written that wealthy people should be able to "buy justice" and that enriching criminals can be good for the economy. "Preventing wealthy people from influencing the opinion of the court in their favor will lead to expected punishments that are too large for the wealthy..." writes Lott..."allowing wealthy people to do what on first glance may seem like 'subverting' the legal system can be efficient." Furthermore, Lott writes, "[The] nation's wealth [increases] if a crime is not deterred when the benefit to the criminal of a particular crime is greater than the total social cost of that crime."
("Should the Wealthy Be Able to Buy Justice?" Journal of Political Economy, December 1987.)”

“I love google :OD

So professor - what do you think of some of Lott's other conclusions, as part of the legal community?

Lott claims that violent crime goes up when police departments increase diversity by adding women and African American men to the police force. Lott claims violent crime increases by seven percent for every one percent increase in African American police officers. Ironically, Lott believes crime goes down by seven percent if untrained private citizens, mostly white men, walk around with hidden handguns due to weak CCW laws.
("Subject to Debate," Police Executive Research Forum, May 1998)”

“Seems like the stats about Murder rates dipping when freerer gun laws are in place are a little less clear and more up for debate than some would like you to think.”

“Am I the only one who saw Tango's FBI stats? LOL! It's so easy to ignore actual facts but opinions never slide by.

Good job Tango! :P”

“Mutt - I expected more from you that trotting out the same old right-wing lines for anyone who disagrees with you - show some imagination - and try dealing with the matter at hand.

I think the more important question is why you hate freedom so much? - as you seem to suggest that anyone who doesn't share your rightie views should get out. Doesn't sound like the ideas this country was built on to me.
last edited: 3/27/06 4:05:05 PM”

“You got a link to those sources Tango - are they just raw stats? or do they allow for other factors that have gone into play in the states involved.

See, I'm not staying the stats bandied about are necessarily rigged, I honestly don't know - but it does appear they are more questionable than those posting here would like to admit them to be.”

“I think stats from all sides are questionable.....in fact my stats show it to be around 85 percent questionable.”

“I agree 95% with that noncom.”

“Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm of Bentley College has verified that gun control increases violent crime.

Professor Kleck at Florida State University has verified that gun control increases violent crime.

Y2, "the 'war on drugs'" has keep the street prices of marijuana and cocaine at a level that makes it affordable to people on poverty as their first choice in recreation.”

“"the 'war on drugs'" has keep the street prices of marijuana and cocaine at a level that makes it affordable to people on poverty as their first choice in recreation.”

Not only that but the people who pay the highest price for gun control are the poor minorities. While the white progressives are trying to protect the white suburbs the inner city citizen is unarmed by their laws and are easy pray for the real criminal elements.”

“the inner city citizen is unarmed by their laws and are easy pray for the real criminal elements.”


My area is rapidly gentrifying. What we've noticed (just the other day) is the new condos and the renovated row houses do not have bars on the first floor windows or doors. They do have "security systems/alarms." The response time to these alarms can be crap in the inner city.

Methinks the newbies are gonna find themselves easy targets.”

“It is 120% true that pot grown legally in your closet would be safer than that from the street. Make that 1200%,12000%...when unemployment of drug dealers is 100% is that the end of the drug war?The war on drugs has kept the price affordable?? GIVE ME A BRAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

“I prosecuted over a thousand Chicagoans for possession of cocaine, and almost all were qualified by poverty for the services of the free public defender.”

“prosecutor, I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim that only outlaws will have guns when guns are outlawed.


"The shotgun and handgun have been tied to another criminal charge against Huff nearly six years ago in Whitefish, Mont.

The serial numbers on the weapons matched those of weapons used to vandalize a fiberglass moose -- part of an outdoor art exhibit -- in July 2000, said Mike Ferda, assistant police chief in Whitefish. Ferda said Kyle Huff was charged with felony criminal mischief in that case, but pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and got the weapons back."

http://www.kirotv.com/news/8300934/detail.html

That's the problem with the conservative states like Montana... they don't recognize irresponsible gun behavior.”

“Protect your freedom. Join today.


http://www.nra.org/”

“Army's 'lost' guns end up on streets
BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
DOZENS of lethal weapons have disappeared from Britain's high-security military bases and found their way on to the streets, it has emerged.

Defence chiefs admitted they have managed to lose almost a hundred weapons, including high-powered rifles, pistols and even a light machine-gun in recent years.”

“I have guns ,but the NRA makes me sick.”

“USA says, "prosecutor, I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim that only outlaws will have guns when guns are outlawed".


Okay wiseguy, how would this look on a bumper sticker:

"WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED
ONLY OUTLAWS* WILL HAVE GUNS

*and the U.S. military, Federal law
enforcement, National Guard Units,
State and Local Police Departments,
Museum displays, persons who find
lost or hidden guns, persons who can
disarm armed criminals and al Qaeda."”

“Mutt - I expected more from you that trotting out the same old right-wing lines for anyone who disagrees with you - show some imagination - and try dealing with the matter at hand. - Y2

Sorry - I'm rarely motivated anymore. My true thoughts on the subject are that 1) teasing out causality between guns/crime is largely frustrated by limitations in data; 2) this introduces the probability of type 1 errors in significance testing; 3) therefore the jury is still out in a scientific sense, and nobody really knows with any authority.

In light of this, as an American, I choose a default of personal freedom, instead of arbitrarily enacting a bunch of dubious schemes that either unnecessarily restrict law abiding citizens' freedom or fail to hit the core problem or leave holes big enough to drive a lorry through.

You see, I just don't buy your unsupported assertion that gun violence has a causal link with gun proliferation. There may indeed be a correlation, but I'm certainly not willing to infringe upon constitutionally defined personal freedoms to target a correlate rather than the source!

My opinion is that armed citizens deter criminals, and that proliferation is - at best - a tertiary factor in gun violence. This has irrefutable "face" validity, it promotes personal freedom, and it trumps Big Government interdiction every time. I know you can't fathom that - your "Big Government As Benign Problem Solver" mindset is distinctly euro-socialist, and why you prefer the Blue city liberals over us backward hick Red staters.

The bottom line is that your schemes are abitrary, based on a "that sounds good" feeling, and are probably completely unnecessary. Too much is at stake to for us to go down that path without hard evidence.

Okay, enough of my ramblings.”

“On the left. Big government, make every thing illegal and have more agencies and cops than citizens.
On the right. A guy with a bible in one hand and a six gun in the other yelling 'we don't need no damn laws'.

Where's the sanity wingers?”

“Where's the sanity wingers?”
salebored
10:44:29 AM
3/28/06

When you find them, let us all know.”

“I don't know, I think the NRA is part of the problem.It's a rich and powerful organization that buys influence in Washington.
They've run an effective campaign of propaganda that keeps anyone from even taking a serious look at the gun violence problem.
(Even the supporters of the NRA must realize there's a gun violence problem - or the whole self-defence argument for carrying a handgun flies out the window).

Continuing to hold their convention in Denver after the Columbine shooting was in appalling taste I thought. Dispespecting dead kids to further their own agenda. Of course they said it was too late to cancel, but it's never too late. A few people not getting the message and turning up wouldn't have been so bad compared to the insult to the families. It's not like the subject wasn't all over the tv screens at the time - they wouldn't have had any trouble getting the message out. They took a conscious decision to continue to hold this convention as not holding it would have been some sort of tacit admission that the easy availability of guns was at least part of the problem that led to the shootings.

That's what you pay for with your NRA membership - a group more interested in their own agenda than respecting the families of dead or injured teenagers. I mean, cancelling this event wouldn't have meant they couldn't have held it the following year.

The bottom line is that your schemes are abitrary, based on a "that sounds good" feeling, and are probably completely unnecessary. Too much is at stake to for us to go down that path without hard evidence. - I agree about them being arbitary, they were off the top of my head - I don't have some sort of master plan for this - but I think the work of the NRA effectively stops any rational thought-out plan being developed or even debated. The whole argument put out by the NRA - and you hear it trotted out by people here time and again - guns, there's no problem with guns.

Frankly I'd say that with a kid being able to buy a gun with $50 on a street corner, should he want to get revenge on his classmates or rob the local liquor store, there's a serious problem with the availability of guns.”

“LZ, I've got a couple sanities rolled up at this end.”

“"That's what you pay for with your NRA membership - a group more interested in their own agenda than respecting the families of dead or injured teenagers...Y2"

That's exactly what I'm paying for, someone to defend the rights my ancestors fought and died for, without compromise.

The weapons used in Columbine were already illegal, correct?”

“"there's a serious problem with the availability of guns.”

Right. It is getting too hard for honest citizens to obtain firearms to defend themselves against the already armed criminals.”

“How's it hard Prosecutor? It's certainly not getting any harder?”

“In Chicago and Washington, all handguns are illegal.

In Illinois, it takes up to two months to obtain a legal firearm.

Four states make it a crime for honest citizens to carry concealed firearms solely to protect themselves.”

“It's getting too hard for honest citizens to pass a driving test and to renew their license.
When you outlaw driving, only outlaws will drive.”

“You seem somewhat familiar. Have I threatened you before?”

“That two-month wait must be a nightmare for you huh? Can't go out and buy a gun the same day. Imagine having to put some thought, patience and responsibility into gun ownership.

So you're saying Chicago and Washington don't have the right to decide if they want guns to be illigal in their cities. Maybe a vote in the Senate should decide that for them?”

“Yes. And I would appreciate it if everyone wrote there Legislative reps to tell them to keep there hands off our laws and respect our wishes.

Thank you.”

“Even the supporters of the NRA must realize there's a gun violence problem - or the whole self-defence argument for carrying a handgun flies out the window - Y3

Wow, I had no idea that the only thing I was protecting myself against was a gun wielding criminal.”

“I mean seriously, why not license each gun to it's owner. Allow a limited number of the most responsible gun shops to be state license agents, able to handle the licencing and competancy tests for a fee of say $20-$50. You can normally take the test on the day you buy the gun. (this also will make the more responsible gun stores the ones where people go as they'll be able to issue the licence - a spate of crimes committed using guns from a particular store, then it no longer gets to issue a license). Make the test a short but effective one on handling the weapon. Require a re-test every five years (I imagine your average gun owner will be needing to go to the gun store more than once every five years.)
If unlicenced guns are found, then they are taken and destroyed - taking at least one gun that someone might have sold on illegally and cheaply out of the system. You may find people selling illegal guns on initially, but over ten or more years it becomes more difficult for your average criminal or kid to buy a gun for $50 on the corner - While your average law-abiding gun owner can have a gun for whatever reason he chooses, with no more trouble than a visit to his fully approved gun store once every five years?

Once you have the gun and the licence you are free to conceal-carry should you wish to.
Also if someone is arming themselves like a Somalian warlord, attention is easily drawn to him.

I mean even if you have five handguns, and three AK-47s, it'll only cost you a day every five years to renew the licence.”

“I say we deport one limey for every gun we destroy.
last edited: 3/28/06 11:42:36 AM”

“Who's next, the micks??”

“Awww, packer is worried he'll crumble under pressure and won't past the test? Poor little guy.
last edited: 3/28/06 12:12:16 PM”

“I think gun violance has been a problem since well guns were invented. And if we have to have a waiting period for guns lets have it for cars, dishwashers, stoves, and backpacking gear. That way we have a good month or so to really think about that next sleeping bag purchase.

I don't even own a gun and have no ambition to own one. But the government needs to keep their hands off our guns and our right to bear them.”

“I think that piece of paper in Washington DC that says we have the right to bear arms wasn't talking about my right and left one.”

“Which test would that be, Y2?

The test I was thinking of was the revolutionary war. We passed.”

“Deport all but american natives and chosen white skinned females. Making guns illegal is stupid ,but so is the NRA.”

“Revolutionary War??
You must be ancient, Ultra.

"Deport all but american natives and chosen white skinned females."

I guess my sisters can stay but I'll have to go.

Nobody was talking about making guns illegal, just not so easy to obtain......by crackpots and dirtbags.
last edited: 3/28/06 12:53:51 PM”

“In this country the NRA is unnecessary.If guns are made illegal they will be more available, but maybe a little more expensive.
Remember you don't need a prescription to get marijuana-some is usually available within one block of your house.It's amazing how efficient illegal drugs are marketed and so will it be with any thing that's given to the criminals to handle.That's a horrible editoral about our system, but the brains of this civilization are attacked to the higher margin business.”

““USA says, "prosecutor, I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim that only outlaws will have guns when guns are outlawed".


Okay wiseguy, how would this look on a bumper sticker:

"WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED
ONLY OUTLAWS* WILL HAVE GUNS

*and the U.S. military, Federal law
enforcement, National Guard Units,
State and Local Police Departments,
Museum displays, persons who find
lost or hidden guns, persons who can
disarm armed criminals and al Qaeda."”
prosecutor
6:18:29 AM
3/28/06


LOL @ prosecuter!

USA is still my favorite troll-in-denial.


My apologies for just skimming over most of this, but I see no solution at all in the registering, waiting, testing, etc. It will do nothing to stop someone determined to break the law. We already see that in many different avenues of society. Who would run such a program? And how does the registering, waiting, testing, and limiting my ability to own 3 guns instead of 10 prevent Joe Thug from stealing one of them?

Enforce the laws we already have. Do the crime, do the time.”

“I think that piece of paper in Washington DC that says we have the right to bear arms wasn't talking about my right and left one.”
flasher
1:16:08 PM
3/28/06

Since the right can be taken away it seems to me that it is more a privilege than an absolute right.

Is that what you're all afraid of?”