Another responsible NRA member

“Violin sees letters.”

“so, i hate to side with the dittoheads, but where was the nra mentioned again?”

“Violin, I'm afraid you'll need to post the link to the art of trolling again. Many of these people didn't see it the first five times.”

“Violin

You usually put up some thoughtful stuff......this is nonsense.”

“I read both articles...no mention of NRA. Must be in between the lines.”

“Employee at Mississippi Plant Shoots Dead at Least Five People - is he or isn't he?”

“He isn't, he killed himself.

Or was your troll looking for something different than the zen of his existance ?

There are important considerations other than whether or not he was, or ever was a member of the NRA. Did he vote democrat, republican, communist or libertarian ?
Was he on the grassy knoll ?
How often did he vote on school board budgets ? did he vote to approve or not approve?
Did he have a criminal record ?, was he ever arrested and released on a plea bargain?

Did his mother smoke or drink while she was pregnant with him, maybe the recessive gene skipped a generation, did either of his grandmothers smoke or drink while pregnant with the parents?

Was he a victim of bullies at school ?
BTW it was interesting to note on the 3 NJ teens arrested yesterday before they managed to kill anyone. James Lovett was constantly tormented for a speech impediment caused by a cleft palate, according to schoolmates.
“They’d all make fun of the way he talked,” said Joe Oldham, a 14-year-old who had a class with the younger boy.

A quick knee jerk reaction is to blame the one organization that takes an active role in promoting the safe use of firearms, to join the media chant.

Why is the NRA perceived as such a threat ?
Because unlike other lobbies, it consists of 3 million ordinary folk who do go to the polls and vote. When compared with money lobbies the NRA has less than 1/2 the money of the leader, but when the votes come in politicians lose office.
The real drive against the NRA comes from the big money lobbies who can never get that grass roots support.
largest PAC's

The work to discredit the NRA comes from big money and has little to do with public safety.”

“So the active promotion of encouraging more guns, of bidding to remove the restrictions on gun ownership, and the fierce blocking of any moves to more sensible gun regulations, doesn't in any way contribute to the large number of spree killings?... oh wait, more children die in swimming pools... or is it - a walking stick could kill a person, should we ban walking sticks? or does more guns mean less spree killings?”

“"big money lobbies" - and that is the funniest thing I've ever hears, the NRA is a big money lobby.... duh ;op

"The work to discredit the NRA comes from big money and has little to do with public safety" - is this from a handout.... what big money????”

“Just couldn't help myself here. I am an NRA Life member since 1980, formerly nationally ranked in smallbore rifle, a CCW Permit holder, have 2 college degrees, and at last count hadn't killed anyone yet. I must be some rare exception by the left's estimation. I'm sure I'll go off any day now. Hope Violin's there at the time.”

“yes, because by challenging the crap the NRA comes out with we're obviously labelling everyone with a gun a killer. Anyone who would like to see a more responsible attitude to guns thinks every NRA member is a killer. you've found me out mtnman - or are you just making huge sweeping statements that have no basis in fact.”

“I believe the left side of that arguement is the one that has the tendency to make huge sweeping statements with no basis in fact, I refrain here from cutting and pasting an enormous amount of data to prove that point.”

“Take a look at the history of the last 10 years in the attached article.

MSNBC table

More people have been killed by Palestinian terrorists this year than 10 years of people going nuts in the US.
The death toll of the WTC was 50 times the number killed in the last 5 years.

Now take a look at automobile statistics, more people have been killed in the US over the last 10 years, than every war ever fought by the US. Do you see any serious lobby to reduce the size of vehicles on the road. Any effort to use rail instead of big trucks. Big truck comprise 12% of traffic and contribute 38% of road deaths.”

“I do a lot of railroad consulting, mostly environmental, there is starting to be a push to move more of the trucked goods via rail, it really needs to happen for congestion and safety. I believe one semi is equal in road design numbers to 6 cars. The rail industry, for obvoius reason, is pushing the issue.”

“ahhhh, back to the "cars kill people should we ban cars argument" - we couldn't see that one coming.

Cars take people to work, why don't we let guns do the same?

Lets all try and make two unrelated things seem comparable.
Guns aren't that bad really.

With vehicles, laws are passed, restrictions imposed - such as the speed limit - to make sure cars are safer and kill fewer people.

Maybe we should do that with guns. Electronic locks for example.

And aren't we trying to impsose restrictions on terrorists. Or are we saying that more terrorists will make the world a safer place?”

“Yet another tragedy .”

“That just proves it...Guns Don't Kill People...Crazy People Kill People.”

“crazy people..... with guns.”

“and only guns? You familiar with the incident in Irvine Ca last week?”

“I think I remember it... but guns make it a little easier I think you'll argree.”

“ynamiynami - you have your passionate viewpoint and total intolerance of those who disagree.

When all the guns are gone the problem dissapears, I think not.


NZ's bloody history of sword attacks

Other sword attacks in the past three years include:

2002 -

On December 29, four men with machetes and Samurai swords hacked a man who had evicted a tenant from an Auckland house. The man was struck twice and had surgery at Middlemore Hospital.

In November a Samurai sword, cleaver and knives were used in a fight in Newmarket, Auckland. One man had his hand partially severed.

On October 27, two men were seriously cut with a Samurai sword in a Hamilton fight. Both received large cuts but their injuries were not life-threatening.

On September 27, 17-year-old Lewis Robertson was jailed for five years for twice robbing a Christchurch service station while armed with a Samurai sword.

On September 23, Dunedin man Timothy Glenn Wallis was convicted of several charges, among them possession of a sword and intending to cause injury.

A 13-year-old boy robbed a Christchurch service station twice in June and July with a Samurai sword.

2001 -

In Invercargill on October 25, a youth was cut down by a sword in a confrontation between two groups. The youth suffered injuries to his hand.

On July 29, a softball bat, knife and sword were used in a midnight attack in a Christchurch carpark. Two men were injured, one seriously.

In Wellington a 16-year-old boy ran from his home armed with a sword and a knife. He was chased and arrested by police.

2000 -

On December 27, a Stewart Island man wielding a sword sparked an armed offenders callout. He was alleged to have broken into two properties and sexually assaulted three people.

- NZPA

reference NZ Herald

Swords are also used in the US there have been 2 separate incidents in the last month. Remove one weapon and criminals will use another.

You will argue that guns kill more people, true, but guns do exist, and over 20 countries manufacture small arms (handguns, rifles, shotguns). Your vaunted electronic gun does not exist, and if it did the other 19 gun producing countries would not make them because of manufacturing cost.


I am also an NRA Life member and have been giving free public firearm safety courses for over 10 years. That is multiple courses every year. I freely give my time and knowledge to do something to help. My help is to reduce firearm accidents, I cannot help crazy people or those they hurt.

I do not see you helping in any way.

The gun is like the atomic bomb, it cannot be uninvented unless you are prepared to kill every human on earth with that knowledge.
Given the fanaticism of your anti-gun stance, I suspect that you may find that a viable solution.
Therefore I find you to be a scary person.”

“I'm not intollerant of opposing views. You are very entitled to yours, I just disagree with them strongly.

In the present political climate, and for the foreseable future, gun restictions appear to be off the agenda, thanks in large part to the successful lobbying of the NRA and the refusal of any politicals to take them on.

So trying to paint NRA members as some sort of vicim of "big money lobbying" as you posted earlier is completely wrong. As is the reactionary "victim mentality" response of "liberals want to take your gun away."

What I do object to is the way the NRA has successfully moved the whole debate from the fact that there is a problem with gun crime (yes crimes involving guns are gun crimes and not just crimes that happen to involve guns), to a claim of there not being a problem at all.

It's a very smart move on the part of the NRA. It pushes the focus away from a sensible debate on the matter. Although I find it's thinly disguised allusions to race and crime to be a little sickening. You can find various statistics to try and prove how wonderful and safe guns are, but the fact remains that if you are gong to shoot and individual, rob a bank, rob a person, rape a person and many many other crimes, then a gun is the most effective tool to carry it out - that is why the argument that people need guns for self-defense is often a valid one. People can defend themselves and guns can be taken out of the hands of criminals.

There now needs to be a sensible debate on the issue on how you can allow responsible people to keep, own and use guns while keeping them out of the hands of criminals. It is presently too easy for criminals to get guns. I realize there is no chance of eliminating guns from American society, but the present situation can be improved.
You can post many many statistics on how many swords, knives, sticks, swimming pools, cars, buckets of water, dogs, cats, bears and many other things kill people, but denying that guns are, by their very nature, designed to kill, is avoiding the truth.

What I'm in favor of is a reslistic debate on the issue, not the idiotic arguments put out by the NRA that no problem exists.”

“So what your saying is that if I don't accept that the arguments you put forward that claim guns are wonderfully safe and actually beneficial, then I apparently want to kill... what was it ... "you are prepared to kill every human on earth with that knowledge" ... that was it.
I must be a closed-minded fanatic.”

“And to post three times in a row - You'll notice the number of fatalities in 10 incidents over three years involving swords in New Zealand, none - compared to the number of fataliies in one incident in a few minutes in Mississippi - at least six.
Thanks for those statistics, you've made a clear, strong point.”

“CNN) -- A worker armed with a shotgun and a rifle went on a rampage at a Mississippi aircraft plant Tuesday morning, killing five co-workers and wounding eight others before killing himself, authorities said.

Lauderdale County Sheriff Billy Sollie said the gunman was Douglas Williams, 48, a worker at the Lockheed Martin plant on the northeastern outskirts of Meridian, about 200 miles north of New Orleans.

He said Williams opened fire during an employee meeting at about 10 a.m. Tuesday [11 a.m. EDT]. A company official said the gathering was a required annual business ethics course.

Officials said Williams left the 13-person meeting and went to his truck to arm himself. He then returned to the meeting and opened fire, shooting several in the room before proceeding through the rest of the plant, shooting employees apparently at random, Sollie said.

"At first I thought it was something falling on the ground," plant worker Booker Steverson told The Associated Press. "Then I walked to the aisle and saw him aiming his gun. I took off. Everybody took off."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/07/08/plant.shoot/index.html


This is the fruit of the NRA, protecting people like him. And probably the guy was a NRA member.”

“BAKERSFIELD, California (AP) -- Police searched Tuesday for the vice principal of an elementary school as a possible suspect in the shooting deaths of five people, including three children.

The five -- including a grandmother and a mother -- were found dead in their Bakersfield home Tuesday morning. Police said they apparently had been shot multiple times.

Detective Mary DeGeare said officers were looking for Vincent Brothers, 41, the vice principal at Fremont Elementary School. DeGeare said he is the estranged husband of the younger woman and father of at least two of the dead children, and had periodically lived in the house.

"He is a person of interest, a possible suspect," DeGeare said. "We'd like to find him to determine whether he was responsible or eliminate him as a suspect."

Police were called to the home early Tuesday by a family friend who had gone to check on the family.

Police didn't immediately release the names of the victims, but according to family, neighbors and court records, the slain women were Ernestine Harper and her daughter Joanie Harper. DeGeare said the infant was about 2 months old, and the children were 5 or 6.

The family lived in a tough neighborhood with a reputation for gang activity, but friends and family described them as active in the community and very religious. They attended both morning and afternoon services each Sunday at their local Church of Christ, but this Sunday, they didn't show up in the afternoon, said Darren Dixon, 22, Ernestine's nephew and Joanie's cousin.

"It's shocking. These people weren't the low-down type. No drugs. These were very religious people," Dixon said.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/07/08/bakersfield.shooting.ap/index.html

Very religious? Like conservatives?”

“"Guns don't kill people, people kill people? Well guns sure do make it a bloody hell of a lot easier don't they? Otherwise we'd just walk up to each other, stick our fingers out at them and say, 'BANG!' and they'd fall over dead!"
-Eddie Izard”

“ynamiynami doesn't care about deaths. "cars get people to work"
If he really cared about all the deaths he'd be for a ban on all vehicles. After all they kill more people than guns do.”

“Some nut in Mississippi kills five people with a shotgun and all the bleeding heart liberals come out of the woodwork and start their usual ban guns propaganda. Well guess what, shotguns are not assault weapons! I guess shotguns will be banned soon too if the liberals have their way. Shotguns kill people too will be their rallying call. In a country of 280 million people, one nut with a shotgun can cause so much emotion that it starts the call for more legislation, more laws restricting the freedoms of the other 279,999,999 of us.”

“There now needs to be a sensible debate on the issue on how you can allow responsible people to keep, own and use guns while keeping them out of the hands of criminals. It is presently too easy for criminals to get guns.

I don't know if anyone would disagree with you on this, yanami. Obviously the problem lies with the criminal element. However, in this country there is a rich history of useless legislation that has done just the opposite: make it harder for law-abiding citizens to enjoy the shooting sports while making it easier for criminals to have the upper hand in gun-crime. The AWB, for example.

So by your statement above, I take it you would support my right to carry my glock concealed. Afterall, I'm sure you wouldn't argue that people don't have the right to defend themselves. And you would support me buying NEW 17 round G17 mags for my G26? After all, I would just be enjoying the extra capacity of those magazines for perfectly legal target practice. And you wouldn't object to me buying the inappropriately labeled 'assault rifle', because it would be my SHTF home-defense weapon?”

“Well said ultrapecker.”

“AWB???

Average White Band”

“awb = assault weapons ban”

“ABA=Average Boring Argument”

“WTF? That's not the cartoon I posted!

Its supposed to be a guy labeled 'NRA' with guns strapped all over him reading the headline about the near attack by those kids. He's saying that they should ban those violent video games.”

“Mutt - I realize that guns are an integral part of American history and American life. People have grown up with guns, and guns make people feel secure in their homes when they might otherwise not.

But this is what I'm talking about with regaurd to a lack of sensible debate. Some complete ass comes along, the usual suspect, and starts talking about "bleeding heart liberals" and "ban guns proposal". That's because they can see the link between the spree killings and the easy availability of guns and get hysterical that someone may take their precious away. Ultra is a good example of this. He's like a five-year-old with a toy gun and a very good argument for tighter gun controls.

One person here suggested that everyone have the right to carry a concealed weapon in every state, but that they required to pass a competance test to hold it and keep it. That would seem to be one way of allowing the conscientious law-abiding citizen to have guns, while providing a few more hoops for the careless, criminal and even the insane to jump through before they get thier hands on a firearm.
This is just one idea, I'm sure there are many others out there.

I would argue strongly, and gun owners have stressed that point here, that a shotgun is the best weapon for home defence - so why would you need anything else?

I come from a country where guns are not widespread, nor have they ever been, and I think America would be a better place if there were far fewer guns, with the guns out there reserved for those that really need them. But despite that feeling I can see that it is just not going to happen. This doesn't mean that the present situation of spree killings, snipers, armed robberies, gang killings needs to be facilitated by making it so easy to get a gun.
Gun ownership is a right, it's in the constitution, I just feel that with those rights should come responsibilities to make sure they don't end up in the wrong hands.”

“That's a well-reasoned response, ynami.

I would argue strongly, and gun owners have stressed that point here, that a shotgun is the best weapon for home defence - so why would you need anything else?

Not necessarily. Just one example that I experimented with a while back. When I was lying in my bed, I was able to grab my pistol and acquire a target faster than with my shotgun.”

“July 9, 2003

Man on trial in shooting of best friend

By MADELAINE VITALE Staff Writer, Press of Atlantic City

MAYS LANDING - The trial opened Tuesday in a case of a man accused of murdering his best friend after the two had dinner at the alleged killer's Weymouth Township home.

In her opening statement, the prosecutor told the jury George Martin shot his friend George Harrington to death Jan. 10, 2001, because Martin was enraged over something the victim said.

The defense claims the defendant killed in self-defense. Harrington came over to Martin's house uninvited, was upset over money he believed Martin owed him and started a fight.

The two drank beers and martinis at Martin's home for seven-and-a-half hours, Assistant Prosecutor Janet Gravitz said.

At about 6:15 p.m., the friends of 30 years ate dinner. Then they had the deadly fight in which Martin killed his friend with three bullets to his chest, Gravitz said.

"This defendant murdered George Harrington. He took a 38 and aimed it at his chest. Boom. Boom. Boom," Gravitz said.”

“AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- Three people were found dead in a mobile home early Saturday after a man ended a six-hour standoff by walking out when law enforcement officers fired tear gas into the house.

Gary Swyck, 40, was jailed on charges of capital murder. Names of the victims were not released.

Authorities went to the home Friday night after receiving a report that shots had been fired. Michael Dunn, whose grandmother owns the residence, said he was talking with his parents and three housemates when Swyck burst from a bedroom, waving a gun and ordering everyone onto the floor.”

“so like, you knew this guy....so that's how you know he is an NRA member?”

“Manhunt ends; cops kill suspect in trooper death

Woodring dies 4 miles from shoot-out

By Amy Lee / The Detroit News

FREMONT -- The manhunt for suspected cop killer Scott A. Woodring ended early Sunday when state police shot him to death as he turned on them with an assault rifle in nearby Sheridan Township.

Woodring, 40, was wanted on a first-degree murder warrant for killing 33-year-old state Trooper Kevin Marshall during a raid on Woodring's Osborn Street home a week ago today.

The fugitive escaped a police barricade of his home after the shoot-out last Monday in which Marshall was killed, but he lingered in the Fremont area of Newaygo County.

Acting on a tip, state police at about 5 a.m. Sunday found Woodring in a car parked behind a home on Maple Island Road near 60th Street, about four miles southwest of his home. Eight members of the state police emergency support team surrounded the car and ordered Woodring to remain inside, said state police Inspector Barry Getzen.

Instead, Woodring stepped out of the car with an assault rifle and, as he turned toward the officers with the weapon, police opened fire, Getzen said. Woodring died at the scene, about four miles from where he allegedly killed Marshall.

"I think he was prepared to die, but he also was prepared to fight it out," Getzen said.

Woodring's death ends an intensive five-day manhunt in this small agricultural community about 30 miles northeast of Muskegon.

Woodring toted weapons, ammunition and food and possessed the survival skills needed to live in the woods. Local, state and federal authorities blanketed the small, tight-knit community while Woodring was on the loose.

Tom Leiter, 69, knew Woodring was nearby when his wife, Rene, woke him at about 5 a.m. Sunday to tell him she heard five gunshots.

"My first thought was him," said Leiter, who lives on Maple Island in Sheridan Township about a half-mile from the home where Woodring was killed.

"I went to the kitchen to get some coffee, and I saw probably 30 state police cars racing by from just about every direction. I knew it was big."

The woman who answered the phone at the brown two-story home that Woodring was discovered hiding behind declined comment. Police said they do not know if Woodring knew the homeowner.

Crime scene investigators collected evidence at the scene into Sunday evening. The state police and the Newaygo County prosecutor's office are conducting a review of the death and the events leading up to the shooting, state police Lt. Col. Robert Bertee said in a statement.

The police presence on Maple Island Road on Sunday morning alarmed Kathy Morrison, 42. Morrison and her husband run Morrison Orchards, just a few houses away from the home where police shot Woodring.

"My husband went down to talk to the police," who had blocked off Maple Island Road after the shooting, Morrison said. "We didn't know if it was safe. It's just been a very weird series of events this week."

Woodring, who associates said harbored a deep hatred of the government, barricaded himself in his home July 6 when police in the nearby village of Hesperia and Newaygo County sheriff's deputies tried to serve him with a warrant for soliciting sex from a teen-age girl in Hesperia. The state police were called in.

Police said Woodring fired two shots at officers last Monday afternoon, prompting state troopers to storm the home to arrest him. Marshall was shot four times.

Marshall, a native of Sterling Heights, died during surgery at Spectrum Butterworth Hospital in Grand Rapids. He leaves a wife, Angela, and two small children. The Marshall family in Sterling Heights declined to comment on Woodring's death.

Woodring learned defensive tactics and survivalist skills during his four-year stint in the Michigan Militia. The group forced him out in 1998 when Woodring began espousing the beliefs of the Christian Identity movement, a radical religious group that preaches racism, homophobia and anti-Semitism, according to Tom Wayne, former chief of staff and executive officer of the Michigan Militia Corps/Wolverines.

Fremont resident Bobbie Palmer, 34, said she expected Woodring to die when police caught up to him. Palmer and her family live across the street from the Fremont Police Station and said they would watch officers loading their guns during the search for Woodring.

"I think the cops were antsy and that they wanted him dead," she said. "They didn't want to take the chance that they'd get shot themselves."

Officials on Sunday continued to scour the burned-out hole where Woodring's home once stood. The home burned July 7, shortly after police shot a percussion grenade intended to stun Woodring in the home.

Officers have found a stockpile of weapons and ammunition, canned food, more than 200 pounds of silver coins and backpacks filled with food and clothing.

Several guns registered to Woodring and Marshall's gun, which he apparently dropped in Woodring's house when he was fatally shot, have not been located.”

“and backpacks filled with food and clothing.



uhhht oohhhh....he was a backpacker....another responsible backpacker......”

“
Biographical Info
Age: 33
Tour of Duty: 8 yr
Badge Number: Not available
Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Monday, July 7, 2003
Weapon Used: Gun; Unknown type
Suspect Info: Shot and killed
Trooper Marshall was shot and killed during an ERT operation at a barricade situation in Fremont involving a militia member. The standoff began the previous day when officers attempted to serve a solicitation of prostitution warrant on a male. The suspect indicated he had a gun and held officers at bay. The Michigan State Police Emergency Response Unit was called to assist at the scene and attempted an entry after deploying tear gas inside the home. As the team entered, the suspect opened fire, grazing one officer and striking Trooper Marshall in the side, in between the panels of his vest.

Although the house was surrounded by dozens of law enforcement officers, the suspect was able to escape undetected after the shooting and is at large. The suspect escaped with several of his own guns and Trooper Marshall's weapon. A cache of weapons and survival gear was found in the rubble of his house, which caught fire and burned during the raid. The suspect was shot and killed on week later after police received information on his whereabouts. The suspect was shot and killed when he pointed a gun at the officers during the arrest attempt.

Trooper Marshall had been with the Michigan State Police for 8 years and was assigned to the Newaygo Post. He is survived by wife and two children.”

“(CNN) -- Police in West Virginia say a school maintenance worker doused his supervisor with gasoline during a school board meeting Thursday, tried to light him on fire and then randomly fired four rounds from a rifle, injuring one woman.

The suspect, Richard Dean Bright, 58, was taken down by people at the meeting, before police arrived, Sgt. Brent Webster with the Charleston Police Dept. said.

"Had they not subdued him, it's hard to tell what would have happened," Webster said. "It could have been much worse."

Bright has been charged with malicious wounding and wanton endangerment, and is being held on $250,000 cash bond, Webster said.

The incident happened around 7 p.m. After the suspect threw gasoline on his supervisor, the victim "took off running and [Bright] never got a chance to light him," Webster said.

At that point, the suspect pulled out a rifle and began randomly shooting, hitting one woman in the leg.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/07/18/school.board.shooting/index.html”

“Ban gasoline!”

“Ban matches and lighters!”

“Ban school maintenance worker's.”

“Ban school boards!”

“Ban police! If we didn't have police, this guy would still be alive.”