Another responsible NRA member

“No of course - it all comes down to the ban on guns. Rather like the trotting out of the apparent link between the lack of guns and a rising crime rate in England

Recent example, my effeminate socialist opponent!”

“mutt, go back and read some of the rest of this thread, I'm not going to go through it all again Mutt just as you can't be bothered to go look.”

“Manuka. you are still telling me what I think.

Here:

No, you people who do not like firearms for yourself want 'reasonable controls' such as no one can have firearms, except who I think should have them, which translates to privelege.


Now, I already told you that this is not what i advocate. I understand that people like you will not rest without guns in your lives. Personally, I have no use for them and haven't in all my 49 years with the exception of some target shooting with some gun owners that I know. But, that's me and that's all I want for myself. I never said word 1 on this forum or any otheer place that said that you can't exercise your rights to own them. Hell, you and Mutt can blow each other's balls off, for all I care! However, I do staunchly say that if a waiting period or some reasonable controls are in place that may just weed out some knuclehead that has no business owning a pair of scissors, much less a gun, then so be it. And, if you have a problem with it, then tuff sh_t, baby! You should learn to live with it. And, if you have nothing to hide, then your rights will not be infringed upon.

My other point of contention is uniformity between the laws from one state to the other. This, I also advocate strongly. Unfortunately, we are the recipients of a lot of crime her ein the city that is perpetuated from guns that are purchased from those states that simply require a #2 pencil in order to purchase a gun. That also should be addressed. Have I said anything here that affects you, my gun-toting pal?


I din't think so. It's a far cry from the words you put in my mouth...”

“Tree, look at your own post.

"a waiting period ... may just weed out some knuclehead that has no business owning a pair of scissors, much less a gun"

and compare with
"we are the recipients of a lot of crime her in the city that is perpetuated from guns that are purchased from those states "

Crime means they do not obey the law, rather than go through what you think are reasonable restrictions in your city, criminals get guns illegally elsewhere. Not even necessarily from another state, a lot of countries manufacture firearms and smuggling illegal substances into the US is a thriving trade. How successful was prohibition ? how successful is the 'war against drugs', what about people smuggling ? criminals will always be able to get guns.

Uniformity of laws across States, again criminals do not obey laws. Your laws only affect the honest people or those unable to afford high priced lawyers like Jayson Williams.

You say you are not an advocate of total abolishment, but many are, and their arguments are always very reasonable.

"gun-toting pal"
I do 'tote' a gun, when competition target shooting (did qualify for the Olympics once), when hunting with a permit during the licenced hunting seasons and hours, and as a volunteer safety instructor for the State. You certainly manage to make those activities sound anti-social.

My position has always been that education works better than prohibition, and I have put thousands of my hours where my mouth is. Please understand that the whole world does not live like your crime infested city, we have no wish to live like that, we have no need for laws that tell us which side of the street we are allowed to park on today. Most of the country has people who can be trusted to own firearms for purposes other than crime.

I teach to prevent accidents, not crime.”

“This 'crime infested' city is the safest large city in America when it comes to crime. Our main concern is serious underfunding by the current administration for terrorism. I walk the streets of this 'crime infested' city with very little concern for my life. I've been doing it for a long time too, cowboy! As an education advocate, I give you kudos for your approach. And, perhaps, it would not worry me knowing you, personally, are armed, as it would with other, less responsible people. Again, you shouldn't have anything to worry about as far as your rights are concerned.


And, the anti-social activities thing? Where the hell did I even address what you are talking about? Because I choose not to include these things in my life and in my kids' upbringing? Is that it? If so, you should learn to respect others' wishes for their own lives as much as you expect respect for yours!


Now, you and Mutt @ 20 paces!”

“Tree,

excuse me, what have your kids got to do with anything I have said ?

my argument with you is that you advocate 'reasonable' restrictions on a constitutional right and cite only 1 such restriction (waiting) but certainly imply that other unspecified restrictions are needed.

You are inconsistent in that in one post "we are the recipients of a lot of crime... from guns" and in the next "safest large city" with "very little concern for my life".

Why spend more on anti-terrorism in a city where the citizens have "vey little concern".
Why not spend some where people are concerned ?

I am not in favor of suspending the constitutional rights of people. You are in favor of limiting one of those right, we disagree.

Your argument for suspending that right is crime.
You could be much more effective in preventing crime if you suspended a few other rights while you were at it.

(RIDICULOUS FONT NOW TURNED ON)

IV. random search and siezure, close off a few blocks and search everyone for weapons.

V. deprived of life without a grand jury, this may not even be unconstitutional as ther is provision for "in time of war or public danger" and we do have a war in progress, and your request for more anti terror funds certinly should mean there is public danger.

VI. Speedy and public trial.

Now with these suspensions you can search anyone and just execute them on the spot if they have any weapon without the appropriate permits.

(RIDICULOUS FONT NOW TURNED OFF)

Playing with civil rights is a very slippery slope, even those rights that you think have no relevance to you.”

“Kids: I was just guessing. You came out of left field and i was trying to figure out what you meant by it...


safest city in America: our crime stats (check FBI crime stats) show this town to be the lowest per capita large city crime rate in America. This does not say crime-free. I know of nowhere that is crime-free...

terrorism: we are the highest profile target in America, hands down. We have had enough terrorist activity here to warrant a lot better resonse from Washington. Hell, that 20 billion dollar promise that dick head grandstanded on at Ground Zero after 9/11, is still trickling in at a snail's pace...

my concern about walking down the street: has nothing to do with federal funding. that's just little old me. I just ain't afraid to walk the streets, man! I do it all the time. Somehow, some way, I have not needed to brandish a weapon in all this time.

Again, if you have nothing to hide, why do the restrictions I mention irk you so much?”

“Treebeard, if you define self defense in the way you did above, the number rises to over 2 million instances each year in the United States that firearms are used in self defense.”

“NJ has a (pretty much) total ban on firearms?

Dang - I better drive down to Sports Authority and let them know.

A waiting period for a background check = a ban?”

“Do you have a source for your stats other than John (Mary Rosh) Lott?”

“I asked how you defined YOUR stats (and where you get them from, while you are at it), Pros!”

“Again, if you have nothing to hide, why do the restrictions I mention irk you so much?"

nothing to hide has much more application to the search and seizure laws.

You wouldn't require the police to actually have a warrant or probable cause to search your house for drugs would you. Or perform a body search to see if you were carrying some prohibited item or substance before getting off the ferry at the battery.

This would prevent a lot of crime initially, but then the criminals would find a way around the restrictions and the inconvienience to you would continue when it was no longer preventing crime and only you were being inconvenienced.

Too many of the existing firearms laws today are just 'feel good' restrictions that do nothing to prevent either crime or accidents and live on only as inconvenience barriers for honest people.

A good example is the media frenzy about 'dodge city' when Florida passed right to carry laws. Did you know that these have always been in effect for Pennsylvania, and that hotbed of crime, Vermont does not require any permit to carry at all.
Yet it is Virginia that is cited as the source for most of the illegal guns confiscated in NYC.

Oh BTW, there was no bloodbath in Florida.”

“Too many of the existing firearms laws today are just 'feel good' restrictions that do nothing to prevent either crime or accidents and live on only as inconvenience barriers for honest people.


Good point and this is why I so adamantly support uniformity in states' laws. Notice I never said how severe those laws should be, in the case of purchasing firearms, just uniformity. That might make the gunrunning I-95 route a little less than worth the risk.”

“Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the defender believed that someone 'almost certainly' would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone 'probably' would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)”

“No Violin, try reading sect 2C:39 and 2C:58 of the criminal code.

and yes, drive down to the Sports Authority, but first.

Go to your local Police station on the night that they are open for civilian requests and get fingerprinted.

Fill in the form giving 2 references who are not relatives.
Give the name and address of your immediate supervisor at work (hope your boss likes you).
Sign the release for a mental health check.

Now wait. Sect 2C:58-3.f ....unless good cause for the denial thereof appears..shall grant...within 30 days.

in practice this will be more like 6 months than 30 days leaving your local Police Chief in violation of the criminal code. Not the fault of the Police Chief, they are required to complete these checks but this cannot be done in 30 days.

Probably a 50% chance that the mental health request will get lost requiring you to go in and sign another release.

Eventually if you continue to call for progress each month you will get issued with either a Firearms ID card good for any number of rifles and shotguns, or a permit to purchase ONE handgun.

You can then drive down to the Sports Authority with the ID card and wait another 7 days so they can do the Brady check and check you again.

If you move house the firearms ID becomes invalid as it does not have your correct address. Take a photocopy before you surrender it and start the process again at your new address as you will need it for Sect 2C:39-2 Presumptions.

b. Licenses and permits. When the legality of a person's conduct under this chapter depends on his possession of a license or permit or on his having registered with or given notice to a particular person or agency, it shall be presumed that he does not possess such a license or permit or has not registered or given the required notice, until he establishes the contrary.

Do not loose that photocopy while you wait the 6 months for the replacement card.

If you take the trouble to read Sect 2C:39 the language is basically that no one can have a firearm...except

2c:39-6 Exemptions
1. Armed Forces on active duty
2. Fed law enforcement
3. State Police

now scroll on down to section 5.e where you are allowed to have a firearm in your home or place of business.

5.f allows you to move it from your home to shoot at a club or go hunting, or even to get it home after buying from the Sports Authority, as long as ...

5.g. carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case.


BTW, a good part of firearms safety is just instructing people how to comply with the NJ law as it is not easy to read.

Much easier to go to a web site that explains it in easy to understand language maintained by....YES...you guessed it

The NRA, helping firearms owners of America to stay legal.”

“Sounds like 90% of that is bureaucratic BS, Manuka. Boy, if I had a dollar for every bureaucratic red tape tie-up I have ever been involved with in my lifetime, I would be a rich man today!

Pros, a 15% certainty rate is not exactly huge. The rest is subjective, so I can't exactly count that as concrete...”

“If you wait for a concrete situations, you will be carried by six.”

“Does that translate into: "Shoot first and ask questions later" ?”

“Let's get back to the "Father shoots daughter" story. The dumbass (as someone said above) probably had his gun cocked, and had his finger on the trigger already.

He should have yelled, "I've a gun up here...f%#k with me, and I'm going to fill ya belly with lead". Any criminal would take off...and in this case his daughter would yell, "Dad...it's me!!".”

“Stanlee, you could not have been more right. Criminals fear guns in the hands of their victims so much, that the mere mention or display of the gun sends the criminal running. When citizens use their firearms like you said, statistically speaking, only 1 out of a hundred criminals are actually shot.”

“9 out of every ten people say that Prosecutor has a statistic for everything!

By the way, I don't own a gun, walk city streets every day and night, and haven't been carried by "six" yet, smartass!”

“Tree, I see you as one of the thousands of Wildebeest on the African plain.

Each day the lions select one and eat it.

You have never been selected, may never be selected, but if the lions ever pick you, you just get eaten.

The lions do not select animals that fight back, Wildebeest are a guaranteed meal.”

“So, are you recommending that eight million people walk the streets of New York armed?”

“Heck no! the lions would starve, or get so desparate they will attack anyone.

Much safer for me when there are plenty of Wildebeest”

“So, is being a predator part of your "education"?


:) sorry, had to ask!!!”

“Heck no, keep them all lower on the food chain.”

“ah, you will never go hungry, my friend!”

“Not true, speed or lack of as they age makes even the best predator less effective.

Perhaps the 100 yard sprint is the best form of self defence, the only improvement might be the head start.”

“Army statistics show there were 92 presumed murder victims in July, 2003 in Baghdad, declining each month to only 24 in October, 2003. That translates into an annual murder rate of six per 100,000 people in the city of five million.

New York's 45 murders in October, 2003 translated into an annual rate of seven per 100,000 people.

Treebeard, you would be safer in Bagdad than in New York. Better start "packing".”

“Knock yerself out. Post a trip report...”

“Somehow, I doubt you have ever even been to New York, counselor! C'mon over! I'd be glad to show yer ass around!!!!!”

“There should be no reason why people cannot own a firearm. There SHOULD not be, but there is because of the irresponsible owners who do not take the time to get educated and learn how to properly fire a firearm.

One thing that I saw that was/is of concern. During the days leading up to Y2K, I was at the local sporting goods dealer and noticed everyone trying to buy guns and ammo. So, I went to the local gun dealer and he was complety sold out. I then went to another dealer and saw a bunch of people, families, grandparents, handicapped people...everyone buying guns!

After the passing of Y2K, today, I wonder where all those guns are....”

“I like gloves and bubble gum!”

“I like bread and butter,
I like toast and jam,
That's what my baby feeds me,
I'm her loving man.

He likes bread and butter,
he likes toast and jam,
That's what his baby feeds him,
he's her loving man.

She don't cook mashed potatoes,
she don't cook T-bone steaks,
Don't feed me peanut butter,
she knows that I can't take.

He likes bread and butter,
he likes toast and jam,
That's what his baby feeds him,
he's her loving man.

Got home early one morning,
much to my surprise,
She was eating chicken and dumplings
with some other guy.

No more bread and butter,
no more toast and jam,
I found my baby eating
with some other man.”

“(CNN) -- Sheriff's deputies were investigating the killings of five hunters Sunday in northwestern Wisconsin, apparently sparked by a hunting dispute that turned violent.

Three others were wounded, said Julie Veness, an emergency medical technician in Exeland, Wisconsin.

Saturday was the opening of the nine-day deer season, and the shooting appeared to stem from a dispute over land in the heavily wooded area, Veness said.

"Apparently, the person was asked to leave and get out of his deer stand, and he didn't take it very well and he fired away at them," she said.

A state police official said a man wanted in connection with the shootings has been arrested, but no details were immediately available. The Sawyer County Sheriff's Department, which is investigating the killings, had no comment.

Jennifer Greshowak, spokeswoman for Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, said three wounded men from the same hunting party were brought to that facility after suffering gunshot wounds. One of the three was transferred to a hospital in nearby Marshfield, she said.

The other two -- identified by relatives as Denny Drew and Lauren Hasebeck -- were recovering from surgery at Lakeview. Drew was in serious condition, while Hesebeck was listed in fair condition, their families said in a statement issued Sunday night.”

“It's things like this that give a very bad eye to hunters.”

“Where does it say they were nra members?”

“No where.
Just more flame baiting.”

“No where.
Just more flame baiting.”
StoveStomper
9:43:48 AM
11/22/04

like you don't do that =)”

“5 people dead; 3 wounded.


So there were 8 people crowded around this tree stand, yelling at this guy .. .


and he was able to take out 5 of them? And wound 3????


what the hell was he hunting with .. .a .50 cal machine gun????????

That is some awesome shooting.”

“I would have acquiesced the stand to the hunter and simply took a big, stinky morning piss right at the base and wish the guy luck.”

“The guy had an SKS 7.62mm, a semi automatic rifle based on the Russian Kalashnikov.

Apparently he was trespassing on private property, using a tree stand belonging to the property owners. Altercation started with one or two of the property owners yelling at him to get out of tree. No one knows who started the shooting, but the shooter then chased/hunted the people.
Among dead 1 teenager, and 1 woman.”

“I own a couple SKS rifles. Comes standard with a 10 shot magazine. Very fun gun to shoot.”

“This is why I don't confront people any more. Let the cops sort it out.”

“Tishawunna Funchess said she regrets what she calls a freak accident that wounded a 14-year-old boy after a gun accidentally discharged in her purse outside his school in Jackson earlier this week.
[...]
"I feel really bad," she told The Clarion-Ledger in a telephone interview. "It was a big freak accident."
[...]
Hudson, a ninth-grader, was shot above the left knee around 3 p.m. as students were heading to another building across the street from Emmanuel Christian Academy, 1023 Langley Ave., said pastor J.W. Moore, the school's leader. Hudson was taken to a hospital and released the same day.

Funchess said she stopped at Emmanuel Apostolic Tabernacle, where she is a member, to use a phone book and locate a bank. "I was outside talking to kids like I always do, and I dropped my purse," she said.
[...]
Full Story”

“Hmmm, call me crazy but for some strange reason I doubt that Tishawunna Funchess is an NRA member.”

“Send in the Nathan Gales!”

“Bullet in the chamber....just asking for trouble.”

“What does it take to get a carry permit in that state? A #2 pencil and the ability to sign your name with an 'X'?”

“I dunno nigal, seems to me that they'll let in any idiot who can pay the fee. Seems to be the main criteria operated so far. ;o)”