Why Democrat?

“Righty-o.

People aren't punished for commiting crimes; they're punished for getting caught!



FWIW, this is by no means a Republican-only problem. There was an interesting installment of FRONTLINE a week or two ago on the subject of how the former SEC chairman's reforms were stymied by highly placed friends of the accounting industry --- especially re: the conflicts of interest brought on by firms auditing the accounting structures put in place by consultants from their own firms. Three names kept popping up: Leiberman, Tauzin and Dodd.

This is interesting... Judicial Watch files suit against Cheney and Halliburton?”

“For those interested, I got a nice email from arclite. He is alive and well - just busy.”

“I'm a liberal, in case anyone cared. I have a joke that I like to tell people. (It's actually not very funny).

I honestly don't care if people are conservative or liberal. There really isn't any one right way to run a government. So I like both conservatives (even though I disagree with them) and liberals. Just as long as you don't like Bush. There is no reason to like the worst President in our American History.

hehe”

“Time will tell.........maybe GW can pardon him before he is found guilty, ala, George Sr.”

“Favorite Spiro quote...

nolo contendre!”

“Cheney might turn out to be a nattering nabob of negativity.”

“I heard some folks were trying to get his bust removed from Statuary Hall (or wherever it is).

Oh, the Irony! LOL”

“Actually, to be in the category of worst President you would need to be impeached. Like Nixon, or like that last Dick we had in office.

Anything good to say on this thread? I haven't read all the posts. Is Whiskey Lake here?


Back for a quicky!”

“That wasn't Arclite that just posted, was it?”

“Well it sure as #&%!$ wasn't arcIite!”

“Yes! Once again there will be balance in the force!

The provocative barbs thrown by arclite have been sorely missed.”

“We are truly blessed to have one of the only conservatives alive capable of thought and humor posting on TT.”

“"One of the only"......I thought he was the "only conservative capable of thought and humor".

Besides, he is a basketball and football god.”

“I see that someone has been posting as me. The 5:40:23AM post is the first and only post I've made in a number of weeks. I have my suspicions but I don't want to offend the musically inclined.

I done thunk and thunk on this puppy and it still makes my head ache. Some greedy sumbiches have put a real hurting on consumer confidence in the market. Now we’ll get the usual knee-jerk reaction from the Dems, “Regulation! Regulation!” Even the Pubs will jump on the bandwagon because it’s almost election time and the public wants blood. Amidst all of this regulation talk, I haven’t heard a single idea about restitution for the folks who lose money through these white collar crimes. Instead, I hear talk of fines being paid to the govmint and I hear talk about prison sentences.

For what in God’s green earth should the govmint be collecting fines? So they can fund another bureaucratic department to regulate business? So they can spend more money on their special interest projects? I can smell my tax dollars being caught up in that vortex as the govmint becomes larger and Larger, and LARGER. This should satisfy the big govmint Dems. It seems to satisfy the big govmint Bush administration. You want to talk accounting scandals? I’d like the newspapers to concentrate more time reporting how our tax dollars are wasted. Govmint accounting makes Anderson look like saints. Why aren’t fines distributed to the victims of these “white collar” criminals? Why isn’t every piece of property, and every bit of money that these jerks own, disbursed to the victims of their excesses? What happens to the poor folk who lose their life savings?

They can be satisfied knowing that longer prison terms are being proposed. WooHoo! Yeah, the legal system needs more people ground through its maw. We need more lawyers to prosecute the “guilty until proven innocent.” We need more lawyers to defend the “victims of society.” We need more jails to house these “let’s make an example out of ‘em” scofflaws. The American Bar supports the Dems. The “tough on crime” Pubs can also feel good about this proposal. The legal machine is licking its chops. Personally, I’d just want my money back. Imagine taking away the property and savings of one of these captains of industry. Imagine this fool having to start again from ground zero, while his victims recoup at least part of their money. Why the heck should I care that this criminal is in jail? So that he can’t do it again? Yeah, imagine this convicted criminal ever getting a position of that much power again? Revenge is for dysfunctional people.

Hope everyone’s knees are in good shape. Looks like we’re going to be going through another collective jerk. We’ve got to protect ourselves! Bolt the doors and install bars on the windows!

Yep, that's me fer sure.”

“Who made the 9:53 post wise guy?

I am not accepting your trash as being genuine arclite material until I get an email from you verifying you are the real deal.

You have the "office" email address if you are genuine. Otherwise, I can't find time to respond to your whimpering comments.”

“Hey, if you can think of a legal way to wrangle the $ out of the bastards who ripped ALL of us off, (my retirement fund is being re-named "The CEO's Donation Fund"), then I am behind you 100%!!!!!!
I don't think regulation needs to be deemed either liberal or conservative. Like cops on the street, it is just necessary. The market is just like a playground. If the bullies can have free reign over everyone, they won't stop until we are all bleeding.
So, let me know how we can strip the crooks of their ill-gotten gains and return the money to the employees and stockholders. Maybe a lawyer should weigh in on this topic.”

“The email is sent chili. I suspect that it may have been violin. I don't know enough about computers to find out.

I also posted on the basketball thread and I started the computer god thread.

It's politically correct ol' me fer sure.”

“Did you hear GW's defense of Cheney? He said that Cheney was a real good guy and that he's done a good job and that he's a real good guy.
Well, I guess the SEC can close the case against Haliburton, now.”

“arclite -

I don't know if you read my post quoting Stiglitz. He is a relatively bright guy with more hands on experience than either of will ever have. I am reading his latest book 'Globalization and Its Discontents' right now. Fascinating so far. I'll lend it to you when I'm done.”

“my post.”

“Another thought.....
I have long said that the market is built on un-reality. My logic was that anything that could fluctuate so wildly upon hearing rumor and innuendo couldn't be real. That fact along with anything that includes "derivatives" and "futures" made me highly suspicious of Wall St.
Now, I've been vindicated beyond my wildest imaginings. Hey, if the big boys say they are worth 100 billion, I guess it's true.
I've always thought that you are either selling your widgets or you aren't. Real market reform would mean tying the market to reality. Do you think that is possible?”

“You know even Ayn Rand’s disciple Greenspan has tempered some of his free market enthusiasm.”

“Ok, he's the real deal.

Although I don't have time presently to wade in to all of your freemarket bull#&%!$, I do want to point out that the purpose of any fine in not in generating income for "govmint", but in punishing the bastard who defiled society by breaking the law. Yes, it is a bandwagon, and I hope both parties jump on full force. The actions of corporate officers in raping stockholders and employees should be dealt with as quickly and as fully as if the offense were a crime against humanity. What is the purpose of a jail sentence?? Good question arc, the real purpose is at least twofold, one is to punish and the other is to serve as a deterrent to others who might engage in the same or similar activity. Yes, they should be stripped of all their worth in civil proceedings. However, the massive fraud is criminal in nature and should result in punishment commensurate with the harm. I would call the destruction of thousands of investors financial lives as being nothing short of horrendous. Who are these people? God? No, they are individuals entrusted to perform their duties effectively, efficiently and above all, honestly.

You indicate you couldn't care less if they are in jail. What else is a deterrent? Do you honestly believe that they will ever be stripped of all their wordly goods as restitution for the damage. H@ll no that won't happen. Offshore accounts, trusts, exempt holdings.....

Major league executives with major league salaries hire major leage accountants to do protect, preserve, and isolate their wealth. If the Court couldn't strip O.J. of all of his wealth in his civil suit, how do you possibly think that these guys will be busted?

In any civilized society, laws and regualations are necessary to protect society from itself. If we were to say, "well, this is big business and free markets should govern themselves"....well where do you think the pillaging would stop? If we are going to abolish regs for big business, why not just abolish the entire criminal code? We can just say, "hey, it is a free market society" the people will work it out for themselves. The can go armed and take care of crime as they see just. Vigilante action may seem reasonable until you are on the short end of the stick.

Legislation and regualation is a fact. A necessary fact. Violators in the corporate world are no different that the thugs on the street. They just work at a higher altitude.”

“Arclite has left the building.”

“Are you familiar with the story of Robert Brennan and First Jersey Securities? He was able to stash millions offshore while his victims continued to suffer for years. The shuffling of assets was very blatant. I saw deed transfers of properties between various Brennan controlled entities and family members and thought there was no way he'd get away with it. Guess what? If not jail, what is the disincentive to that type of behavior?”

“YAH!”

“I'd love to read it violin. But if I give you my street address you might move into my house and assume my identity!

The World Bank? I'm not totally familiar Stiglitz but European economists seem to put a lot more stock in socialist ideals than we do. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in reading as many different points of view as I can. How could I form opinions if I totally disregard other viewpoints? I may be many things but I'm not a closed minded bigot like many "liberals" I know.

Some form of regulation is necessary. What form does it take? Undoubtedly stock options seem to be a bad idea. Greenspan had an interesting speech quoted in today's paper: "In recent years, shareholders and potential investers would have been protected from widespread misinformation if any one of the many bulwarks safeguarding appropriate corporate evaluation had held. In too many cases, none did." We may just need to tweak the system. I fear an overregulated knee-jerk reaction like the one that helped the "California Energy Crisis."

Greenspan goes on to talk about the importance of penalties for non-compiance. That's what I'm talking about. Hit these people where it really hurts, in their wallets. Many of these executives will still come through their legal troubles with small fortunes intact. You want consequences? Take away the power and prestige that these people had through their vast sums of ill-gotten gain and give it back to the people they stole from.”

“And don't forget it.


Now where's Kleetn?”

“While they are lining the pockets of both sides of the House and Senate, it will be hard to wrestle anything away from these low-lifes!”

“European? Unless they moved Stanford overseas, I'm not sure where that came from. He is a professor from Stanford, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, a former chief economist and vice president of the World Bank and served on the president's Council of Economic Advisers under Clinton.

This speech about the role of government in the economy that he gave while at the World Bank is relevant to this discussion.”

“"...more and more of our imports are coming from overseas."

- George W. Bush”

“Punishment Chili? Would you beat the snot out of your kid with a baseball bat if they took $20 from your wallet? Punishment is too often an excuse for revenge by angry people. I think revenge is for dysfunctional people. So we have come to the understanding that you believe in jail terms, thus bolstering the legal machine and the bank accounts of lawyers everywhere. This is also a boon for govmint that must run these facilities. Think of all the jobs the govmint can create by hiring guards and administrators. Unemployment may go down. So let’s all feel good about raising our taxes for this worthy cause. And let us not forget the advantages to the private sector. Architects, engineers, and contractors can now specialized in the fascinating field of jailhouse design. We don’t need people concentrating on hospitals or other facilities anyway. Jailhouse design is a growing field.

Deterrent, Chili? Like deterring drug use by harsh punishment for users? The "war on drugs" certainly has proven something. And of course we all know how much of a deterrent is the death penalty.

I'm talking consequences. I favor restitution. It's hard to provide restitution when you're sitting on your butt in jail. Just ask any parent who is waiting for child support from an ex-spouse who is in jail.”

“Arclite, CEOs and Board Directors are not doing anything new here. They got carried away and got caught, that is all. The main reason they do things that are unethical and personally enriching is because they fully expect to get away with it. There are many lawsuits filed on behalf of shareholders that mainly benefit the lawyers involved. They are usually low profile because the main threat is "Pay us off or we will go to the press". The reality is that investers need to examine the publicly filed statements and the history of a company and decide whether the trend has been ethical, timely information to the public of earnings changes, or a "who, us?" attitude until the last possible moment. When a large company warns of missing earnings targets only a week or two before the earnings were due to be announced, there should be some major mistrust by investors, unless something extraordinary happened, like a plant blew up. Investors need to demand better behavior, and the SEC needs to be a formidable enforcement agency.”

“Punishment Chili? Would you beat the snot out of your kid with a baseball bat if they took $20 from your wallet?

arclite
06:07:40 AM
07/18/02

No arlite I wouldn't. Then again, I wouldn't beat the snot out of our CEO if he boosted $20 Grand from the company coffers.

But when someone completely guts a multi billion dollar corporation through fraudulent practices, I full expect to see punishment meted out is such a manner as will (A) effectively punish the crime to the magnitude of damage and (B) send a message, both loud and clear, to every other citizen that such behavior will not be tolerated in a civilized society.

I hear your wail going up about the "lawyers" profiting from the criminal proceedings. Well, knowing what little I do about big firms (I always practiced a lot closer to the street), I can tell you that the money spent on lawyers to protect the wealth will by far exceed that amount spent to stay out of jail. Perhaps it is because the criminal proceedings have a relatively short life as compared to civil proceedings. Case in point: The OJ criminal trial is long over; the actions to collect on the judgment will go on until the day OJ dies. What makes you think that these criminals will roll over and pony up on restitution. By the time they shuffle money offshore, tie it up in trusts, bury it in the backyard, give it to politicians (for favors of course), pay the accountants and lawyers and doctors and experts, there won't be a dime on the dollar left. And I can assure you that civil proceedings will not in any form or fashion alleviate the costs. Do you think a long drawn out civil proceeding will deter the next guy from attempting the same crime? Of course not! The only thing that will happen is that he will learn how to be more crafty. I mean what is the risk to him? Go figure arc. He makes $200 Million raping a company and spends $20 Million in defense and pays restitution of oh,,,let's just say $50 Million. Duh! After Taxes, he still has a cool $60 Million and is laughing his ass off in Tahiti sipping Mai Tai's.

I just can't believe he would be laughing near as hard in a 10 x 10 cell with a horny roommate named "Killer". Granted, the federal country club is too plush, but that is an entirely separate argument and reform is necessary in the penal system.

War on Drugs? What war on drugs? I have hear this since Reagan announced it as a brillian plan with the Drug Czar at the helm. There is no war on drugs. If we took all the troops, equipment, money and resources we threw at Osama after 9/11 at threw them at the Cocaine cartel today, cocaine would be non existent by Labor Day.

The "drug dealers" who rotate in and out of prison are mostly addicts who will never give up the habit. Any substance so powerful as to have only a 2% chance of quitting (as is the stat on crack), doesn't leave much hope for a cure. You can't kill a 60 foot oak by picking off all the leaves. You kill the oak by cutting in down 4" from the ground. That's the only way the war on drugs will be won.

I must admit however, with a certain amount of curiosity.....

If a complete stranger were to read our posts.....and know nothing more about us.....which one would be labled "conservative" and which "liberal" [using what I concede are somewhat archaic labels]. Further, if that person were to venture a guess as to who is a Democrat and who is a Republican, how would they choose?

Arc, there may be some hope for you yet.”

“To compare your son stealing $20 with what Worldcomm and Enron have done is way off base, IMHO.
I do hope the American people stay on this until there is stronger penalties for these crooks. We could let a few kids out of the pen who are in for pot sales to make room for these serious criminals.”

“Maybe arclite wouldn't be opposed to stiffer penalties if it included capital punishment.”

“"Sorry Kenny-boy, we're gonna have to behead you for ripping off the American people".
-future quote from GW in order to get re-elected.”

“BTW: one way to verify that someones signiture is not a "look a like" is to right click on their name, then click on properties. Next, cut and paste the name from properties. In caps or a cap script like "algerian" you can see what the name really is.

In this case, the Imposter used a capital "I" instead of a lower case "L." In Caps it read ARCIITE. Since the Viol man did this to me (and I did it to him in retaliation until he turned over the password for the counterfeit ped), I have been suggesting that everyone register any possible lookalike versions of their name.”

“Did you know I can post under anyone's user name anytime I feel like it? Not a look alike but their actual name? I decline to use my powers for evil though.”

“However if someone would like to see it done and try to guess how I did it, that could be fun.

Any takers?”

“Bacpac would love to have you post under his name.
BTW, I was Lizs for awhile.”

“yes, I am sure bacpac would enjoy getting close to his feminine side.”

“No, I don't mean give me permission to post as someone else, ya numbskulls. Are either of your names up for temporary abuse?”

“Why don't you start a new thread dedicated to posting as other people? It would be interesting to see how close to each of our TT personas you could get. You up to the challenge?”

“yeah, yeah, yeah!! that would be hi-freakin'-larious!”

“Call it the Violin Fiddles (with peoples identity) thread.”

“To give it that perverse Roman flavor.”

“Violin fiddles while TT'ers burn.”

“Good one, Chili.
You ain't man enough, are you, fiddle boy? If you're so dang computified why don't you come on and show it? Afraid? Don't worry, Matt is going to ban you, regardless.”

“Yeah, go out with a bang instead of a whimper.”