When Gun Control Costs Lives

“Prosecutor spreading his BS once again. I really don't know whether he's this foolish or he just repeats it deliberately to 'pull my chain'. Maybe he should stick to what he knows - though apparently that would limit his posting.

The studies he refer to are discredited by the fact there's never been widespread gun ownership in the UK.

Nigal - you prolly won't see a huge change in DC.

Most murders are gag related - committed by those already owning guns illegally.

DC has improved since the Barry era - Williams and now Fenty doing a decent job, and better funding from congress.

Most houses in District are well secured with bars on windows and doors, meaning burglaries are not widespread - so having a gun a home will more likely just offer a feeling of security rather than real security.

Most people in DC work in jobs related to the Government, which would make it difficult to carry as they'd struggle to take them to work. Much of the time they'd be unarmed.

If you really wanted a gun it's never been difficult to get one. You can be be in VA or MD in minutes from anywhere in the city.

The middle classes have been moving back to many areas of DC follow a flight to the burbs during the Barry era.

Changes in crime in DC are more likely to come from policing tactics and numbers and other social and economic factors rather than changes to the gun laws.

Despite disagreeing with some of the points here - I don't think the Supreme Court ruling is necessarily a bad thing btw. Hopefully we'll see some more universal standards rather than the crazy mish-mash in place now.”

“And this isn't to say I don't think there are some major problems with policy in the UK either. It's just that guns have never played a significant role in crime there either in a positive or negative way.

One thing I would say that needs to be changed in the UK is that it needs to be open season on criminals if a homeowner catches one in his home. I have no problem with a homeowner using extreme measures to defend their family.

Interestingly a finger of guilt is being pointed toward the American cultural influences for the rise in attacks. These range from rap music lyrics to games like GTA.”

“Y2, the professors who studied the effect of increasing gun control that increased violent crime and homicides took into account the factors you mentioned. Not a single reputable academic study showed that gun control laws reduced crime.”

“Of course......Y2s' facts are provided by the anti-gun lobby while prosecutors' lies are provided by the pro-gun lobby.....makes perfect sense.”

“Interestingly a finger of guilt is being pointed toward the American cultural influences for the rise in attacks. These range from rap music lyrics to games like GTA.


LMAO!”

“Nigal - you prolly won't see a huge change in DC.

Most murders are gag related - committed by those already owning guns illegally.

Gag related? Then why are guns banned then if it's people gagging and not being shot? LOL! I know what ya mean.

Thankfully they'll probably see an increase in these gang bangers being the ones getting shot now that the inner city poor will be able to defend themselves.”

““Of course......Y2s' facts are provided by the anti-gun lobby while prosecutors' lies are provided by the pro-gun lobby.....makes perfect sense.”

The proof is always found somewhere in the middle. The middle where the powerless minority are.”

“Fight the Power!”

“Switzerland is a very interesting case, in which there is wide spread gun ownership. Virtually every adult male up to the age of 30 is required to be in either active military service or in the militiea and to keep an autmatic weapon at home. Yet at the same time there is more regulation of guns than in most of the United States. People need a permit to buy a gun and military issue guns are regulated and if a person leaves the militia and wants to keep their gun, the gun is automatic.

So basically you have wide spread ownership with regulation, registration, required training, and permitting. It seems to work pretty well for the Swiss.”

“I think the age is 18-54 ped, at least thats what my former boss told he (he was a swiss fella).”

“Is that how the Swiss got all those holes in them or is that just the cheese?”

“Prosecutor - there has never in British history ever been a realistic prospect of a person carrying a gun on the streets, or statistically any significant prospect of them having one in the home. Nothing can change that no matter how much you or the authors of this study want it to. Portray your case for America but you really need to stop posting about things you clearly have no idea about.
Changes in gun laws had an effect on so few people that it would be impossible to form any sort of causal link to a rise in the murder rate or 'homicide'.


Noncon - I know you don't like to put forward any of your own ideas and simply like to pick at those of others - but really - I'm not making wild claims or making anti-gun statements - I'm just pointing out that the gun collector Prosecutor shows he has no understanding of the causes of crime in the UK - which is true - so perhaps it would be better for him to stop trotting out this study as somehow providing support for his point of view.

My response to Nigal was just giving my opinion on the wider set of circumstances which may come into play in DC having lived in the middle of the city for six years. At least he seems to get what I'm trying to say.

Maybe he's not someone who looks to prove the 'hypocracy' in others, or who likes to goad liberals.
last edited: 7/06/08 8:17:47 PM”

“he probably does - just maybe not as frequently ;op”

“Y2 offers his own opinion.

Unfortunately, that opinion is refuted by academic studies from institutions like the University of Chicago, Yale, Florida State, Bentley College, Bentley College,Simon Fraser University, and University of Georgia.

In his books Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America and Targeting Guns, Professor Kleck of Florida State University reported that firearms are used defensively 2.5 millions times per year, dwarfing offensive uses by criminals. Kleck says that 25 to 75 lives are saved by guns for every life lost by a gun. The medical costs saved by the defensive use of guns are 15 times greater than the costs caused by criminal use of firearms, according to Kleck.

Joyce Malcolm - Bentley College, Gary A. Mauser - Simon Fraser University, David Mustard - University of Georgia, and Marc Gertz - Florida State University and Professor Lott while at the University of Chicago all have validated these studies. Professor Michael Bellesiles agrees with Y2, but he was fired from Emory University for falsifying data.”

“Yawn - we've been through this all before - a bunch of NRA loving academics most of whom have been discredited like the study - the rest simply acknowledge it - not agreeing with the findings but just acknowledging it.

Come on Prosecutor - why don't you actually come up with your own arguments for once in your life and deal with the subject at hand, instead of reading out a list of names which frankly no one has heard about and even fewer people care about.

This is the stupidity of what Prosecutor is saying: In his books Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America and Targeting Guns, Professor Kleck of Florida State University reported that firearms are used defensively 2.5 millions times per year, dwarfing offensive uses by criminals. Kleck says that 25 to 75 lives are saved by guns for every life lost by a gun. The medical costs saved by the defensive use of guns are 15 times greater than the costs caused by criminal use of firearms, according to Kleck.

Where did this come from - I'm just saying that you shouldn't be consistently referring to the UK - the study is fatally flawed. Maybe guns do save a whole lot of people in the USA but we're not talking about that are we.”

“Professor Kleck of Florida State University

Hey that's where Arclite went. I wonder if he knows him? LOL!”

“"Come on Prosecutor - why don't you actually come up with your own arguments"

One cannot have a better position that when all the leading academics who have studied the issue agree with your position, and no reputable academic has found that gun control works.

But the debate is academic so to speak since the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that gun control laws cannot ban firearms. Case closed.”

“errrrrr - Prosecutor - you seem to be unable to grasp the subject at hand - the UK - not the US Supreme Court. Try to focus at least some please. Your rag-tag group of gun nuts are not leading academics - they are a group of people who have taken a statistical coincidence in another country and attempted to attach some significance to it.

Try and read this slowly - there has never been widespread gun ownership in the UK and changes in gun law had affected so few people that you can not use these changes to account for a rise in crime in any sort.

Using your view you COULD claim that crime and murder rates are getting worse (which is debatable anyway) because the British don't have access to guns - but your academic works don't claim that do they? They overreach - rather like you.
last edited: 7/07/08 5:39:46 AM”

“Better to 'over reach' than 'reach around'.

There. That's my profound contribution to this thread for today.”

“That's not what you said last time we camped...”

“That's because you always over reach the reach around. I think we've reached the end of this stream of logic.”

“Leave your stream out of this!”

“pass the pizza or the dutchie”

“It's the girl scouts down stream that are the concern.”

“I think you should worry over the boy scouts upstream instead....”

“Who was it that hiked a couple of miles upstream and found a dead cow?”

“Ya know what this thread needs?
















MORE COWBELL!

”

“Birch - you inspired me to do some research. Result: the law changed since what you heard, but the US State Dept says its 20 - 30 with civil protection duties for most for another 7 years (I don't know what these entail).

"All able-bodied Swiss males aged 20 to 30 must serve. Thereafter, most personnel are assigned to civil protection duties until the age of 37."

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3431.htm


Its interesting how Switzerland defies a lot of people's stereotypes. The gun control folks point to their strong regulation of guns, the pro-gun people to their widespread gun ownership. The pacifists point to Swiss neutrality, while militarists point to their permanent state of armed preparedness and tradition of universal conscription for males.

I wonder if in terms of military stance and foreign policy, the Swiss have been closer to what George Washington envisioned than we have. I say, "have been," because they are changing.”

“thanks for the update ped its been 14yrs since I worked for the guy.”

“Gettin' old eh?”

“Ya know what this thread needs?
















MORE COWBELL!

”

“OOps! Sorry for the double post. Too much cowbell!”

“Have you actually read your much referred to Joyce Malcolm's work Prosecutor, or are you just repeating what you've picked up from a gun forum?”

“I have Joyce Malcolm's book and have read it.

I also bought when it first came out the anti-gun book Arming America by Professor Michael Bellesiles. After I read the book, Professor Michael Bellesiles was fired from his job for making up sources in his book.

You see, in the academic world, with peer review, people who do not meet academic standards lose their job. None of the academic studies that show that gun control increases violent crime resulted in the Professor being fired. And not a single reputable academic study has found that gun control reduces violent crime.

But Y2, not having studied the matter, not having read academic studies on both sides of the issue, has his own opinion. Unfortunately, his own opinion is contradicted by the people who study this issue for a living.”

“So of all the universities in the UK, including some well known ones - In sociology departments, social policy departments, history departments, politics departments, among thousands of civil servants, in the Home Office, in police authorities, police associations, police officers, junior and senior, among politicians or all sides, local and national, media whores, the media in general from the socialist worker to the BNP newsletter and everyone in between - all these people missed the role of restrictive gun laws in causing crime in the UK to rise.

In fact it took a second amendment expert, favourite of the NRA, based in the US to dig this nugget out.

Even reading what's available online she seems unable to provide anything more than a loose connection. This law was passed in 1920 of '67, and crime didn't go down - that's basically it.

Just how gullible are you? Even giving you the benefit of the doubt you need to understand more about the UK and British history to place her work in context.”

“I think what Y2 is trying to say, prosecutor, is that if you're not from his country you shouldn't act like you know what's best for his country or criticize them---and neither should anyone else.


(goad, goad, goad)”

“I haven't done any studies of the U.K.

Y2 hasn't done any studies of the U.K.

Those academic professors who have studied the U.K. have found as gun law restrictions increased, so has violent crime.”

“Lack of guns cause Global Cooling. Too many guns cause Global Cooling.”

“Of course I have Prosecutor - I have a masters in History from Univ of London - the majority of which was modern British history.

What I'm actually saying is that Prosecutor has no context to put this in. He takes it at face value and doesn't even try to break things down. For example he's unable to offer a single explanation as to why gun controls would have influenced crime rates since they applied to such a tiny proportion of the British population - surely this is a fairly simple question for someone who refers to this study all the time?

Lets play by your rules Prosecutor.

Restrictions on gun ownership and use have dramatically cut crime in New York City.

Since restrictions were places on gun ownership in the UK in the 1920s - life expectancy for males has increased from the high-50s to about 76 years.

Crime in Ameircan cities has fallen substantially following the introduction of the Federal Assault Weapon Ban.

Homicides in Chicago dropped around 15% following the introduction of the Federal assault weapons ban in 1994.

Gand related crime in Chicago dropped 24% from 1994 to 1995, following the introduction of the Federal Assault Weapons ban.



Good to see you've managed to put forward some ideas of your own again NonC. Is that you finding more 'hypocracy'. Hmmmm, who was obsessed with that?”

“I have no problem with the UK banning guns. It's their country so they can live as they choose. I just don't want anyone saying we should live the same as any other country. Cool? Cool.”

“Cherry picked examples do not refute academic studies.”

“No - evidence refute's 'academic' studies. And if you think sticking 'academic' in front of things somehow proves something beyond doubt - who knows what you think of those bastions of liberal though - the American Universities.
And how do you reconcile that with the 'sceintific' research conducted on global warming - you dismiss that easily eenough.

It's like reading a single book written by a the Communist Party and declaring the Chinese-style managed economy is the way to go.

Why don't you explain to us what you saw in Ms Malcolm's work that was so persuasive?”

“i love the brits in general but can't stand the self-righteous tripe they puke when it comes to guns. they were denied from having weapons of any kind for so long that they forget why having the right is so important.

there are 60 million people living in the UK and over 300 million people living in the USA... more than 5X the population. it's like rhode island telling wisconsin how to run it's business.”

“Who is telling you this Yogi? Not entirely sure why it would matter to you either?
I also have no idea why it has anything to do with what's been posted here either? NonC and Prosecutor are the ones who brought other countries into it.

almost like America telling China how to run its business huh, or America telling the entire middle east.... or America telling all of South America.... or America telling Europe.... or America telling .....”

“now we're cooking with crisco!”

“you posted "Since restrictions were places on gun ownership in the UK in the 1920s - life expectancy for males has increased from the high-50s to about 76 years. "

...and I also love the quotes that say "Crime dropped by X% after event Y took place!" You know, I moved to Chicago around 1995... perhaps _I_ was responsible for the drop in homicides and gang violence. I need to talk to the mayor about getting on the payroll.

the simple fact is that assault weapons account for about 2 - 8 percent of gun crimes. so there is NO WAY that it resulted in a 15% reduction in the homicide rate in chicago and i seriously doubt the other twisted statistics you posted (define "fallen substantially" for example) mean anything valid.
last edited: 7/08/08 4:18:13 PM”

“Yogi yogi yogi - I was just trying to give Prosecutor some easy-to-understand examples that these sort of correlations can be made just by combining general trends. I randomly picked events, including some around gun bans to illustrate that it's easy to do, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are true.

I don't even think the examples I picked are true as crime wouldn't go down instantly after an assault weapons ban was introduced.

My point was that yes, crime in England has mostly gone up (until recent years, but that's a different matter altogether) - so you can pick anything you like to tie into that.

A strongly pro-gun US academic has tried, not particularly successfully, to tie it to UK gun laws.

A decreasing infant mortality rate has led to an increase in violent crime in the UK.

A decline in the number of smokers has led to a rise in violent crime in the UK.

A rise in the spread of TV reality shows can account for a decline in car thefts in the UK in the past five years.”

“And yet again we come full circle: Y2 knows the truth about guns and global warming because he's seen evidence and everybody else cherry picks their "stupid" data---an English Tilt, if you will. (although at least Y2 offers some sort of argument, unlike Tilt.)




Bet it's less than five posts before Y2 asks me what I think and tells me I have nothing to contribute.”

“Well, there you go. How about bows and arrows?”

“Academic studies can be used to refute earlier academic studies. Y2, do you have ANY academic studies that show gun control laws reduce violent crime? No. They don't exist.”