Packing while you're backpacking?

“Right-o Pekka. I knew you weren't vouching for anyone's advice. It just reminded me of something I found peculiar. An officer of the court advising someone on how to break the law isn't something one sees everyday... at least not in *my* experience.”

“Just a few things: A lot of folks on this thread have talked about how much more dangerous heart disease and automobiles are than "crazed" weirdos in the woods. But heart disease and automobiles are also a lot more dangerous than grizzly bears, in terms of number of lives claimed. Not hiking in country where Grizzlies live robs a backpacker of some of the most beautiful terrain in the country (I pity anyone who does not hike Glacier NP because of Bears). Grizzly bears are like trout--they don't live in ugly places.

That said, there's the issue of guns. When I backpack or hike in the fall, I carry a single-action .22. Not because it's an ego boost or because I'm scared of maniacs on the trail. Because in New Mexico you can legally shoot grouse with a .22.

It's not the most sporting way to dispatch them, but the birds frequently flush and fly into the nearest tree. Watch them, mark the branch they're on and shoot them in the head.

Then pack the bird out at the end of the day or (if backpacking) drop it in the aluminum dutch oven with some carrots and spuds for a better meal than any of the freeze-dried kibble I'm carrying.

The rest of the time, I carry a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt with hard-cast semi-wadcutters loaded over 9.8 grains of Unique powder. Why?

Ranchers. I have a nice 18-inch scar on my left torso from a run-in with a bull placed illegally on a forest service grazing lease in 1988. It tore me up good when I got too close to the herd while hiking a trail near Elk Creek in southern Colorado's San Juans.

Never saw it coming. Just saw a bunch of cows, which was annoying, then it sideswiped me with its horns. It let me get away, I made it back to a ranger station and was transported to a clinic in Chama, NM for 112 stitches. Lost about three pints of blood and got a transfusion that also gave me hepatitis.

To this day I'm scared to death of cows. And I'll shoot any bull I ever see on a grazing lease. The rancher who owned the bull called it a "mistake" to put it out with his cows and lost is grazing lease for (gasp) one year.

So the short answer is this: yes, I carry a gun when I backpack.”

“Tilt -- but if anyone knows how to bend the rules, it's those who enforce them and make judgement calls every day. Just hope that guy is your prosecutor should you get caught carrying concealed in his jurisdiction, lol.”

“Just to clarify on an earlier point made: .45 hydrashocks (by Federal) would not be an ideal bullet design for penetrating a Grizzly Bear's skull, should such a thing ever need to be done.

Your chances of stopping a Grizzly with a handgun (assuming you're not Elmer Keith) are thin to none. Your better bet would be to let the bear bowl you over, paw you around a bit and play dead until it leaves (and pray that's what happens).

If, for some reason, you have to shoot a big bear with a .45 auto use solid (hardball) loads instead of a hollow-point design.

The hollow-point is made to expand within its target, and better spread the energy. In other words, they're not made to penetrate hard targets, but transfer the entire load of energy directly to the target.

The disadvantage of a hollow point is the loss of sectional density--what's needed to plow through a thick skullplate. Stick to hard, solid bullets with a stout load of powder behind them.

That being said, I think bears are about the coolest animals out there and loathe the sort of churlish morons who hunt them.”

“If ever on jury duty you can always vote not-guilty for firearms cases.”

“Buddur -
"Do you think a griz is gonna run for cover at every clap of thunder? I would suspect that a griz is gonna be anything but gun shy.
gojo
10:23:04 AM
05/09/02


So a bear can't distinguish between thunder and an intense sound directly infront of it coming from the person the bear is eyeing up??? Who knows...who reeeeeeally know???

The first time I hiked in "Bear Country", the Adirondacks (OK, I've hiked in W PA Alleghenys a buttload), I had a discussion with a person at my place of work who is a self-proclaimed bear expert. And what I derived from the conversations is that 1) every encounter is site-specific and never are they the same, so don't think there's one best defense, 2) bears will only attack if startled, hungry or cubs are present, and even then 3) they're more likely to false charge rather than maul (if not hungry), 4) dogs are more of a deterent than people think...they don't lead bears into camp, 5) there's no use running because bears can outrun humans easily, and 5) the best defense is to stand your ground, make and keep direct eye contact, make lots of noise and try to make yourself look bigger than you really are. And if you are attacked it's best to have your pack on your back so the bear attacks it and you which is better armour than nothing at all. I'm sure I left some of the other details out, but the jist of things is...if it's gonna happen it's gonna happen, and if it does there's not much you can do but try to survive, but the good news is attacks are not as common as people like to think.

I solo'd the Adirondacks that hike (with my dog) wondering if I'd encounter a bear. Well, to my dismay, I didn't even get to see any tracks.”

“I like to think that knowledge is the best defense!”

“Good info and point of view, #&%!$bird. Another thing about the Federal loads -- the bullet is one thing, the powder load is another. Hydrashocks come in various weights. There are the heavier, slower 147 grain bullets, medium weight 124 grain (I'm not at home to check my ammo case), and the lighter, but higher velocity with the same load, 115 grain bullets. I also have some "personal defense" load Federals with a 135 grain or so bullet that has a design and powder load for lower recoil and muzzle flash , and higher velocity.

This just shows how careful you have to be when picking out guns and ammo for any use. There are some key variables that can't be accounted for in general statements about calibers.

#&%!$bird, ever use a .45-70? My brother has some with custom-hardened bullets that the company does guarantee will penetrate the skull of grizzlies, though he has no intention of ever trying to test the guarantee.”

“I've fired one. They're beasts. The only sporting rifle I own is a .270 Win.”

“Why does everyone keep mentioning caliber and how this or that is not big enough? Cartridge or shell size is important but the shell's ballistics attributes (special bullet coating, pp++, etc.) is another story.”

“a commercial pp++ load is still no match for a hand-loaded, large caliber cartridge fired from a strong revolver. pp++ just means it's a higher-pressure load than gnereally-available factory ammunition. More pressure generally means a higher muzzle velocity for the projectile. A hot p++ 9mm (or .40 or .45) round may not cycle properly in a autoloader and it's still only going to push the a 125-grain bullet (or thereabouts) at 1,200 fps (or so). That's not something I want to get hit with, but when you run the energy equation (mass times velocity squared) the p++ round will still fall short of a stout .357, .44 or .45 Colt.

As for bullet coatings, for the most part all they are good for is extending barrel-life. The much-hyped "armor piercing" bullets only work because they have a steel-core wrapped in lead, for example. And a teflon or moly coating on top of the lead.”

“Good points. However, isn't fps totally different than what damage the shell will incur upon entrance into the tissue. Your looking to kill not just put a bored hole in his head. Example would be the Black Talons everyone threw a fit over. Excuse my lack of ballistic terminology.

Also, when talking about caliber. Isn't the incursion of a 10mm (once labeled as the perfect security caliber) much more in gelatin test than a .45? Again I really know only enough to just make a few comments. Good to have someone answer my questions.”

“It's not the bullet that usually kills. It's the damage the energy from the bullet does to vital organs, arteries and bone structures.

A good way to look at this is by taking a melon and shooting it. The bullet makes a hole through the fruit and continues out the other side, but inside the fruit itself, everything is soggy. Now imagine that melon is the insides of a person or animal.

If you've ever shot an elk or deer, the ideal performance for the bullet is to have mushroomed and be sitting just under the skin on the far side of the animal. The expansion allows the bullet to shed energy more efficiently and avoid passing completely through the target. Look at that animal's innards and they'll be less turgid than in an animal that died of natural causes.

Now consider a rabbit: shoot it with a .22 and it will die right away. Shoot it with a .44 magnum and it will hop away from you and bleed to death in the weeds several hours later (unless you hit the lungs or head or major arterial). The .22 won't pass through, the .44 will. The .22 has less energy, but that energy is transferred efficiently to the target. The .44's energy is wasted.

So the real trick in selecting bullet design is getting what you need for the job. If you are going to be shooting elk, you want a spitzer rifle bullet that will mushroom within the target and transfer the energy without overpenetrating.

If you are shooting bear, realize the place most likely to drop the animal in its tracks is the muscle-control center (i.e. brain). To access the brain, the bullet must be capable of penetrating the skull. To penetrate the skull, you must have a solid bullet with a high sectional density. That way the force behind the bullet is all centered across the diameter of the bullet.

A hollow point will start to expand as soon as it hits the bear. That spreads the energy out across a wider diameter of surface area and makes it less likely to punch through.

Once inside the bear, the hollow-point would be better. But you have to get in before you "get down" so to speak.

That's why solids are generally better for bears. Hollow-points are great for shooting people. That's why cops carry hollow-points and big-game hunters do not.

I realize this is a rambling explanation, but I'm at work. I apologize for its lack of focus.”

“Father Goose,

I checked with 3 different sources on carrying a handgun with a permit on state and federal lands. Since I live in Indiana I checked with the Indiana State Police, the Indiana Department of Natural Resources and the Ranger District overseeing the Hoosier National Forest which is federal land. We were both half right. It is illegal in Indiana to carry a handgun on any state land except during hunting season. They told me each state is different and you would have to do some checking in other states. As far as Hoosier National Forest (federal land) goes you can carry a handgun provided you have a permit any time of the year except for hunting seasons that don't allow handguns. I'm lucky seeing as I only backpack in the Hoosier National Forest. It's the only piece of land in Indiana I consider big enough to backpack in.”

“The 10mm is a fine defensive round. Very popular among hand-loaders and gun nuts. In many ways it is ballistically superior to the .45 ACP (automatic colt pistol) round. That's the bullet used by the popular 1911-style pistol--another fine defensive weapon.

But those are guns for shooting people. When worried about large animals (personally I worry about cattle, not bears) I carry a .45 Colt. Is the is round invented for the Colt Peacemaker, the ubiquitous 'cowboy gun' seen in John Wayne movies. The case is larger than that of a .44 Magnum and for a handloader there is tremendous versatility. I use hand-casted bullets that are harder than factory lead and load the bullets hot enough to punch through a small tree. There's a reason cowboys carried this round: its made for dealing with large, dumb animals.”

“I've thought of carrying a very small caliber handgun for dogs that don't take bear spray for an answer. Had it happen last year with two wild or stray mutts. Lead dog shrugged off the first dose and came back for seconds.”

“Rugerman: are we talking generally about a ccw, or a hunting permit? Also, I was writing specifically from the viewpoint of the average backpacker. I have bp'd in several states from California to Florida and in every case it was illegal to carry a firearm unless specifically permitted for a hunt on that particular piece of property for particular game at a specified time. I am not anti-gun. I was just trying to advise bp'ers on the hazards of carrying if they so chose. CYA!”

“Father Goose: I'm talking about a personal protection permit. In Indiana we don't have ccw per say because in this state you can carry openly if you so desire. I see your point about the hazards of breaking laws while backpacking with a gun. It's always best to educate oneself about the do's and don'ts of each state. I for one have learned something about my home state.”

“Check with your state's DNR about hunting seasons, too. A small game permit covers a lot of situations. There are some species that are always in season in certain states, such as crows. Then check to see if handguns are a permitted method of taking whatever is "in season." Also, sometimes a handgun is considered an ancillary hunting weapon in the field, if you are appropriately equipped for the game in season. In other words, up here in Wisconsin, you may be hunting deer with your .30-30 or .308, or shotgunning for grouse, but carrying a pistol (NOT concealed) as well. You just have to have the right hunting license for the season.

BTW, our state constitution guarantees your right to use a gun for personal protection. You may be able to make a case in Wisconsin that carrying, openly, a handgun in areas frequented by feral dogs, for example, is a matter of personal protection whether there is an open hunting season at the time or not. Steve Hiker is not the only person to have such encounters.”