Gun con-troll

“if you open it, close it...if you mess it, clean it...if it crys, feed it....if it's too loud, your too old. that pretty much sums it up. . . .”

“"Tommy Gun, I gotta say thanx for quoting actual incidences and occurences, very interesting. Those are probably the only kind of quotes that add to a conversation. Quoting some one else's ideaology really doesn't add to the discussion though. So let's hear your ideaology............"
Uphill Klimber
-------------
"It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." The temptation of Jesus by Satin, Matthew 4:4 Deut. 8:3

This is the basis of everything to me. American society was built on this idea and still lives it through it's laws and institutions.”

“uh.... just to clarify, I was asking for your ideaology on the subject of this thread, gun control.”

“Honestly I don't see disarming of civilians in the future. I see nothing but more road blocks from both sides and years to decades of bickering about it. Countless dollars continually wasted in vain for laws that are already on the book and not enforced. I think the powers that be are somewhat leary of the can of worms they would be opening if they were to disarm its cilivians.

Lord knows there has to be more Mcvieghs wannabe's or unibomber types out there and what about those mysterious militia men. Its something to think about. Its ludicrous to think that disarming law abiding citizens will rid this nation of its problems.”

“I find satin very tempting, but I usually prefer flannel and silk.”

“Thank you, Rabbit. I couldn't have said it better.”

“Briar rabbit makes a good point. I agree that we have no need of dis arming law abiding citizens. The discussion I am interested in is protecting the law abiding citizens from the nut cases.

Tim McVeigh didn't use a fire arm, but he did use a powerful weapon. Since then, they have made his weapon of choice less lethal and harder to obtain.

Now that's what I would like to see. When something is shown to have a pretty good illegal lethal potential, find a way to make it less lethally legal. Unfortunately, when it comes to guns, about all the rhetoric we hear is "can't be done", or "won't let it be done" or "don't even try".

I kinda like that bumper sticker: You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.”

“Wrong-o, Uphill. Fertilizer and diesel fuel and a rental truck can still be readily obtained over the counter, so to speak. There are over sixty thousand laws regulating firearms, their sale and use on the books. What would you add that would not abridge the rights of law-abiding citizens?
I don't think it would surprise you to hear that firearms, as inanimate objects, are not the leading cause of death, accidental and intentional combined, in this country. We've been over this ground before. I think the onus is now upon you to come up with a suggstion other than to say, "We ought to do something".
So what about it?”

“I normally climb all over these type of posts being an NRA life member, CCW permit holder, and formerly nationally ranked rifle shooter with no killings or armed rampages in my past but, with Father goose on watch, whats to say.”

“If I'm not mistaken but haven't They been placing 'clues' or identifiers in much of the fertilizer nowadays. That helps in the tracking or labelling of said producted in case it was used in a crime. Anybody else every hear that?

Dare one say it, but could it possible for a 'civil war' to break out if something like the 2nd Amend. was to be amended.

Imagine a peaceful NRA march on D.C.?”

“good one pedxing!”

“Hello, Rabbit. You're talking about 'taggants' which have been discussed about placing in gunpowder. Having been in the agricultural business for the last 13 years, I can assure you that no such 'identifiers' have been placed in agricultural products. Would you care to explain to the rest of us, however, if gunpowder were somehow 'tagged', that it would reduce crime? I doubt you can.
I guarron-damn-tee you that when someone tries to eliminate the 2nd Amendment, there will be a less-than-peaceful march on D.C.!
I am as peaceful an individual as ever lived and I believe in 'Live and let live', but don't tread on me! I am very willing to die for what I believe in! I refuse to live in a police state. I wasn't born in one, I wasn't raised to live in one, and our forefathers did not believe in one. If I may borrow a phrase from one of the greatest patriots of the history of our great country, 'Give me liberty, or give me death!'
If I may use a phrase from the greatest fraternity that ever existed on the face of the Earth, "Even death hath no greater terror than that of falsehood and dishonesty'.”

“I never could figure out why camels always freaked-out Wayne LaPierre. %^ )”

“Tilt, I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but could you at least make sense?”

“All the precautions possible will never stop well thought out terror.
Image the western drought --9/11 could 'pale' to that possibility.”

“Sorry --- it was an oblique reference to the often heard "camel's nose under the tent" argument, which seems to preclude the enactment of any further laws whatsoever.

(Now, if I could get a clip of Charlaton Heston talking about camel-noses... <G>)”

“Tilt, I offer you the same challenge as I gave Uphillclimber. There are over 60 thousand laws on the books regarding the use, sale and disposition of firearms. What would you add to make things safer for the average citizen, given that, criminals, by definition, do not obey the law, which would not abridge the rights of law-abiding citizens?
As for the camel's nose under the tent, it is well established in (even recent) history that registration has led to confiscation.”

“Did Father Goose really say "onus"? That's sweet! I hardly ever never ever hear "onus" nowadays. I do hear "bonus" occassionally though.”

“Sooooooooo... only law-abiding citizens obey laws so they're not worth enacting? I never did quite get the point of that argument.

I believe LaPierre used the camel analogy on many occasions unrelated to registration... it was his mantra for a while, there. It seems like there was a period measured in Years when I would turn on the tube and there was Wayne, talking about camels again, <G>.

I've been wondering about something else, recently. You remember how George the Former made a show of resigning from the NRA following the "jackbooted thugs" epithet. What is his status now? Is he still a non-member, or did he quietly rejoin?”

“Father Goose, I heard shortly after Timmy did his deed that they changed the formulation of fertilizer, and those manufacturers came under some fire for not doing it sooner. Apparently it was a pretty easy fix. They have not made it impossible to do, just harder. Also it's harder to obtain all the components all at once. You'd have to go several places to get it all. Now that won't stop a determined terrorist, but it does at least slow him down.

Okay you've told us something that is NOT the leading cause of death, intentional and unintential. How about telling us what is the leading cause.....

60,000 laws, eh? Probably just need some uniform enforcment, from the sounds of that statement. Can you lead me to where those 60,000 laws can be documented? Or is this just a statement that gets repeated long enough and people believe it?

Onus for a new suggestion??? Your sophistication is showing (LOL)!!!!
I have have always advocated that the NRA types should work the government to restrict access of guns to those who really should not have one. The nut cases, those with criminal records, the unstable.... What the NRA does, IMHO, is to immediately shoot down every single law that is proposed as soon as it hits the floor. I'm willing to bet that they haven't even read the law before they are ready to shoot it down. They seem to fear that any law will abridge their right as law abiding citizens. I have no problem with law abiders having guns. I'd like to take the NRA to task to about helping to legislate against the formerly mentioned unfit. That's my suggestion. Now let's see if the NRA is really interested in protectin America.

I haven't shot very much lately, but when I had my BB gun, I was a pretty good shot. And when I have shot lately, I'm pretty much on the bulls eye. Iffin we ever get together, I'll buy a box of rounds and I bet I could give you a good run for your money at the rifle range, or if you prefer, a row of cans on your fence.

Have a good day.”

“,,,,,,'Would you care to explain to the rest of us, however, if gunpowder were somehow 'tagged', that it would reduce crime?
I doubt you can.'

Thats the word I was thinking of 'taggant', thanks Goose. I believe I said nothing about reducing crime but what I was actually hinting too was that these 'taggants' are in essence 'fingerprints' that create a trail that may lead to the perp.”

“10-4 Rabbit. You are so correct. My, my there, Uphill, aren't WE the peevish one? Next you'll be telling me your daddy can beat up my daddy...
The NRA was a leading advocate for legislation requiring mandatory prison sentences for anyone using a firearm during the commission of a crime. NRA also led the fight for 'Three strikes, you're out', which will keep repeat violent offenders behind bars for life. The Eddie Eagle program teaches firearm safety to youngsters.
There are currently laws on the books which make possession of a firearm by those adjudicated mentally incompetent, felons and anyone convicted of domestic violence illegal.
You could be right about the number of laws on the books, though. That's one of those things you see in print so often that you take it for granted. I'll check it out and get back to you on that one.
Tilt, old buddy, you inferred that which I did not impute. The point is, laws are already in place to handle just about any situation that could possibly come up. The problem is enforcement.
And as for you, Underpants, up your 'onus'! :D”

“Actually, 60,000 ordinances may not be a bad estimate if you take every federal, state, county, municipal, park, town etc... rule that has anything at all to do with guns throughout the country.
After all, how many cities, towns and counties are there in the country?

How many laws designed to prevent gun related violence that apply in any one place? Thats bound to be a very very much lower number.

I'd guess the number of ordinances in the country which are designed to avoid traffic accidents must be millions - since every town and city has some of its own.”

“Ped, I think that probably is the case. It's pretty hard to trace 'em all. Makes for interesting research, though.”

“"This may come back to bite me in the a$$, but here goes.
Tommy, do you have an original thought in your head? The bulk of your posts are quotations from other sources, with very little insight on your part. When you do that, you're no better than evildoer or buttpacker. It's people like you that give the NRA a bad name. For chrissakes, boy, put down your book of Wayne LaPierre's quotations and use your brain, if you have one.


Why do you care if I have an original thought in my head? Who says that others can't speak for me? Why can't I use others quotes to make my points?
You are shooting the messenger....... Please focus on the substance of the message. Thank You!!!!!”

“Resistance is futile. You will enjoy assimilation. The NRA can't be evil. I give it money not to be. I don't need to think. I let them do it for me. That's not dangerous. They tell me you people are dangerous. This message was previously recorded.”

“Like churchs and most other larger organizations,the NRA does not limit its concern to its intended subject.Why should the NRA have an opinion on 'snack taxes'?”

“Good point, unc.”

“Isn't this damn thread dead yet? Talk about kickin' a damn horse 'till it rots...”

“So much for the "an unarmed citizenry is the dream of every tyrant" argument:



Iraq Arms Civilians As Second Line of Defense Against U.S.

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, February 5, 2003; Page A01

MOSUL, Iraq, Feb. 4 -- Semira Ahmed, a schoolteacher, keeps her battered AK-47 assault rifle in her bedroom closet, next to her dresses, shoes, jewelry and cosmetics. Abbas Mahmood, a shopkeeper, displays his in the living room, on a shelf with pictures of his children. Mohammed Abdullah, a farmer, totes his wherever he goes, because he wants to be ready "to fight at any time."

From dusty villages to the bustling streets of Baghdad, guns are omnipresent in Iraq. They are, as people here are fond of saying, more common than telephones or cars, and perhaps even portraits of President Saddam Hussein. "Everyone has one," Abdullah said. "And some people have two or three."

Over the past two years, Hussein's government says it has trained 1 million civilians in the basics of armed combat and given many of them firearms to keep at home. With Iraq now facing a possible U.S. military invasion, Iraqi leaders are encouraging -- and counting on -- those people to act as a last line of defense in cities and towns across the country.

Iraqi officials say they expect armed civilians to engage in urban warfare with U.S. troops, firing at them from inside houses and high-rise apartment buildings. The officials express hope that if enough civilians join the fight, the Americans, despite air superiority and technologically advanced equipment, will be forced to retreat.

Whether legions of ordinary people will take up arms to defend Hussein's government remains one of the biggest uncertainties of a war between the United States and Iraq. Although U.S. commanders and Western military analysts expect relatively few civilians to put up a fight, the Iraqi leadership says it is confident of just the opposite.

To display their preparations, authorities summoned tens of thousands of weapon-wielding civilians, from schoolgirls to gray-haired retirees, to march this morning down a wide boulevard in Mosul, 230 miles north of Baghdad. It was Iraq's largest display of force in months.

Menacing at moments, comedic at others, the parade featured pot-bellied, middle-aged men waving rocket-propelled grenade launchers, women in heels brandishing AK-47s, ethnic Kurds in traditional dress, workmen in blue boiler suits and a dozen men clad in the white shrouds worn by aspiring Palestinian suicide bombers.

Although the parade appeared designed for foreign consumption, diplomats and analysts said such events have an important domestic purpose: dissuading people who might be thinking of participating in dissent when the war begins by reminding them that their neighbors may be armed and loyal to the government. The parade also may have been intended to send a message to Iraqi Kurds living in an autonomous region whose southern border is less than an hour's drive away.

"We know the Americans are there right now with the Kurds," said one participant. "If either of them try to invade, we will be waiting for them."

Izzat Ibrahim, vice chairman of Hussein's ruling Revolutionary Command Council, saluted from a reviewing stand as the marchers shouted belligerent slogans. "Bush, Bush, hear us carefully! We love Saddam Hussein!" one group screamed. Others opted for the zippier "No peace, no surrender!"

"I wish the Americans would come here," growled Faris Zubaidi, a 42-year-old businessman who was leading a unit of 96 men with grenade launchers. "We will show them our bravery. We will show them we can fight. And we will fight until we win or die."

Zubaidi, who was in the army during Iraq's 1980-88 war with neighboring Iran, said he decided to join the civilian militia when it was formed almost two years ago. Named the Al-Quds Army -- after the Arabic name for Jerusalem -- the militia was assembled on Hussein's orders, in theory to prepare for an invasion of Israel.

At the time, the Al-Quds Army was regarded as a way for Hussein to channel anger among Iraqis at Israel's policies toward the Palestinians and to curry favor among Arabs in neighboring countries. It was coupled with payments of as much as $25,000 to the families of Palestinians killed in the struggle against Israeli occupation, including suicide bombers.

But as the threat of another war with the United States becomes imminent, the militia has made homeland defense its primary role. New training sessions have been scheduled and scores of government employees have been encouraged to participate.

Although the government has not provided a breakdown of militia members -- "They come from all walks of life," a local official said today -- conversations with several participants in the parade suggested a significant proportion are civil servants. The militia members said they did not receive a regular stipend but some said they got $40 for the two months during which they trained.

The government reports that the militia has 7 million members. Western analysts place the figure at closer to 1 million. How many would fight U.S. invaders is anyone's guess. One Baghdad resident who boasted of having an AK-47 and a revolver at home said he had no plans to use them in the event of a U.S. attack.

"It will be too dangerous," said the man, a shopkeeper, who did not want his name published. "People will be firing in every direction. I would be crazy to join in."

What will he do with his guns? "I'll keep them hidden at home," he said. "And I'll stay at home, too."

Others said they intend to fight, but they hinted that their primary motivation would be to try to keep Americans out of Iraq instead of defending Hussein, casting their role as protectors of Iraq's sovereignty and natural resources.

"This is our country," said Ali Ahmed, a teacher marching with a contingent of men in olive-green uniforms. "What right do the Americans have to come here? What do they really want? It's not about weapons of mass destruction. I think they want our oil."

But the message organizers tried to convey today was that everyone loves Hussein. Many marchers wore photocopied pictures of the president on their chests. Others put on colorful stickers with his image. Large portraits of him were placed on the back of pickup trucks that brought up the rear, along with flatbed delivery vehicles mounted with antiaircraft guns.

The large-scale distribution of weapons began during the war with Iran, when the government gave Iraqi-made AK-47s to decommissioned soldiers, members of the ruling Baath Party and tribal leaders. But it has dramatically escalated in recent months. Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz said last month that officials had handed out "hundreds of thousands of weapons" since the Bush administration began deploying additional forces to the Persian Gulf.

One group largely left out of the gun distribution has been Shiite Muslims, who make up about 55 percent of the population but whose allegiance has been questioned by Hussein and other top leaders, who are predominantly Sunni Muslims. In 1991, after the Persian Gulf War, Shiites rebelled against government forces in several southern cities. Today, some Shiites still are quietly loyal to a large opposition group based in Iran, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, whose leader has vowed to send fighters into Iraq to oppose Hussein if U.S. forces invade.”

“Guns are probably more prevalent than toilet paper in Iraq as well. That's a good societal model to exhibit.”

“Yeah, I think all hell is going to break loose over there.”

“No wonder there is no money for soap and deoderant.”

“See! They're not nearly as different from Americans as we perceive them to be!”

“I've heard that they wipe their bums with their left hands. No joke. Not sure if that's true or not, it's just what somebody told me.”

“That's why they amputate your right hand if you get caught stealing. You then have to use the same hand for both .... you get the picture.”

“I think lots of the ME does that Artex, including the entire country of India. That's why you never shake left hands. It's quite insulting.”

“Notice that the article said that they have plenty of GUNS. Oh, darn it, Sadaam still has the ammo.

Actually, Iraqi people arming themselves is one of the best possible outcomes of this little situation. If Sadaam thinks that he can hold onto power with an armed populace, after the external threat passes, I wish him all the luck in the world.”

“Gee, I wonder what the murder rate is over there? All those guns, there must be alot of violence, NOT!!!!!

The only violence is the kind Saddam hands down.”

“180 posts and finally a thread deterioration.

Wash the bum using the right hand to pour water and the left to do the actual bum washing.
This method is used from Indonesia to Morocco, probably about 1/3 of the World. Plumbing in these countries uses smaller pipes so using paper promptly blocks up the sewage.

I learned in 4 years of travelling in Asia to NEVER stay at hotels where other westerners were. The toilets were always blocked.

And yes, use of the left hand for anything else is insulting. A good thing to remember when a taxi overcharges, pay with the left hand, deliberately and obviously.

I am also an NRA life member. I have volunteered my time to run NJ State hunter safety classes since 1991. Every other instructor that I know of is an NRA member. We volunteer our time to educate the public on how to safely and responsibly use firearms. This took 2 week nights and one weekend day every month from April through November, until last year where the week night teaching was put on video tape. The weekend hands on teaching continues.

I am a firm believer that education is much more effective than prohibition and am prepared to put my time into that which I believe in.

My personal belief is that the best recent examples of the 2nd ammendment were the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles, and Hurricane Andrew in Fl (1992). In both cases a group of armed citizens faced the looters/rioters because of a compete absence of any other form of law enforcement. In both cases the lives and property of the armed citizens were saved. The militia is you and your neighbors maintaining order until civil order is restored.

Like the Korean shopkeepers in LA, I am also an immigrant who believes in the 2nd ammendment right to protect self and family.

I think the most important benefit the NRA provides me is information on proposed firearm laws that could affect me. Contrary to what other posters have stated the NRA does NOT oppose them all, but notes where they oppose and why, is neutral, or is in favor of laws and why.
Notification from the NRA is the only warning that I get. I get no notice from the Federal or State Govt, but 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' and with mandatory sentencing in many States the NRA is the only organization that enables the American firearm owner to stay legal if you travel from your home State to others. The NRA provides members current firearms laws for any state on request. I use this service before travelling out of State and this alone is worth my fees.
The NRA also organizes almost all competition shooting as a sport in this Country, and contrary to many other sporting organizations, a competitor DOES NOT have to be a member to participate. See FG's note that the NRA has 4 million members but 65 million people in the US have firearms.

I am proud to support this organization that represents me and millions of others to prevent a firearms ban and confiscation through ignorance and fear as has happened recently in both the UK and Australia. I do not believe that 'it cannot happen here' and will quote Raymond Uy "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom".”

“As well as no mention of AMMO distribution (and I bet all the grenade launchers were locked up after the parade), 55 percent of the population is not getting guns -- the majority who might be "disloyal." A pretty clear example of government control of guns in a society -- the big guy gets to choose who gets them, and who doesn't.

Black, white, brown, yellow, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Pagan, Democrat, Republican, Green, Reform --- we all get to have guns here, or we all get restricted together. That's a big difference. (Okay, ex-cons, schizos and wife-beaters aren't supposed to get them here. We're not completely unprejudiced.)”

“Just like Vietnam all over. If the U.S or NATO forces fight them house to house...there's going to be alot of innocents killed, and then the media is going to have a field day, ragging on the western troops.”

“I still wanna know.... if the 2nd ammendment means what the NRA claims: That the individual's right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", why won't they protect my right to own rocket launchers and nuclear weapons? Doesn't the 2nd ammendment give me that right?”

“Of course it does Ped, but you'll have to hook up with these guys to get those arms.”

“Pedxing, several reasons.

1. you are not a member so why should member fees be used to protect you?

2. NRA is the National RIFLE Association. They do spend a lot of time and effort to protect member rights to own RIFLES. They also help with other firearms similar to RIFLES such as handguns and shotguns that are used for competition, hunting and personal protection.

3. The NRA's position is that responsible people should not be penalized for actions taken by criminals. Punish those that commit crime not the law abiding. Your posts do not indicate that you are a responsible person. You expect someone else to fight for you without your support. With your attitude I would not trust you with a butter knife. However I will still provide FREE education to you on how to safely use a firearm should you turn up at a class. I will also fail you as I have many others if you cannot understand basic safety procedures to protect yourself and others when in possession of a firearm. Yes we do test students during and after the course.

4. Have you ever been refused a nuclear weapon ? by who? and under what basis? Do you know of any law that prohibits you from having a nuclear weapon? Is this a Federal, State or Municipal Law? Perhaps the answer may be a simple as going to your township meetings instead of expecting the NRA who you do not support to do things for you.

5. I just went to E-Bay and there are 102 items for sale under the
search 'Rocket Launcher'. What is your problem? have you even tried to buy this stuff before b1tching about the NRA?

You are exhibiting the standard anti-gun mentality. You fear that which you do not understand and yet make no effort to learn. It is unfortunate that things cannot be un-invented, this includes firearms, H-bombs and the automobile which kills more people than any other tool invented. Part of growing up is learning to deal with things.

If I cannot drive a Ferrari, nobody should be allowed a Ford. How did we ever progress from the cave?”

“If that's true Manuka , then the NRA is full of it when they say they are dedicated defenders of the second amendment... either they aren't as interested in the second amendment as they say, or they don't really believe what they say it meants.”

“ok.. lets make the question easier...: if the second amendment means the individual has the right to keep and bear arms, does it cover the right keep and bear nuclear arms, hi-tech anti-air craft launchers. etc...

The rocket launchers citizens are allowed to get are toys... not real arms.”

“Pedxing,

I answered your question as to why the NRA will not protect you.

You did not answer any of mine.

To reiterate.
The NRA is concerned with Rifles. The NRA is an association (The A part) comprising of members. The association represents what the majority of members want. It does nothing for non-members and certainly does not represent or protect them.

What is your bug with the second ammendment.

Lets try the first ammendment, it is illegal for you to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, or any crowded place for that matter if there is no fire. Where is the much vaunted "freedom of speech".
If you are of Muslim or Morman religion you cannot have multiple wives, I thought "free exercise thereof" covered that.

Ammendment VI, please define speedy, some trial are months or years. Given current computer and aircraft speeds, by right the trial should be over in less than a second.

Ammendment VII ..."exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved"... Just try to get a Jury trial for a Traffic offence, or when was the last time a parking ticket was less than $20.

If you are serious about your questions, why don't you present them where you can get a better answer than a backpacking bulletin board, say,..perhaps,..the US Supreme Court, or at least the Supreme Court of your State. Then the answer you get may carry some weight if you were to be stopped for not wearing your seatbelt, and just happened to have that 20Meg warhead in the back seat where it was visible to the officer.
Any answer I give has no official standing.”

“It's obvious that the NRA only cares about rifles and could give a rat's ass about the 2nd amendment. What a sad bunch of posers.”