Gun con-troll

“Gun supporters split
over Rep. Paul
NRA threatens to pull endorsement due to vote on lawsuit bill

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Posted: April 26, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Jon Dougherty
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

A staunchly pro-gun-rights lawmaker has repeated his opposition to legislation that would protect firearms manufacturers from liability suits, despite a report that the National Rifle Association may pull its support for him in the next election.


Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas

Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, voted to oppose H.R. 1036, the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, because he said he feared it would be an unconstitutional enhancement of federal power. As WorldNetDaily reported, the bill passed the House earlier this month 285-140.

But because he voted against the bill, the NRA may drop its support of Paul in the future, according to Chicago Sun-Times syndicated columnist Robert Novak.

"Paul evoked the NRA's ire April 9 by opposing a bill that would order federal and state courts to immediately dismiss lawsuits against gun makers and gun sellers," Novak wrote. "Paul always has defended Second Amendment protection for gun owners. However, he objected to Congress legislating against state rights."

Novak claimed gun-rights groups were split over Paul, who is also a physician. "While the NRA wants to challenge him, the Gun Owners of America are in full support," he wrote.

An operator at NRA headquarters outside Washington, D.C., said all of the organization's spokespersons were attending the group's annual meeting in Orlando, Fla., and were unavailable for comment.

Jeff Deist, Paul's spokesman, told WorldNetDaily he had no comment on Novak's report. Instead, he referred to his boss' statement opposing the bill on the House floor prior to the vote.

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, confirmed that his group "fully supports" Paul.

"We disagree with his view that the bill was anti-federal by telling states not to allow frivolous lawsuits against the firearms industry," Pratt told WorldNetDaily. "We believe that these suits themselves are the federalism buster. They permit a court in one state to set policy for the whole country."

However, he said, "GOA fully supports Ron Paul who is the gun owners' Top Gun in Congress."

"Ron Paul has introduced bills to wipe out most federal gun-control laws. It is pretty hard to get more pro-gun than Ron Paul," Pratt said, a position Paul made clear in his House statement.

"I rise today as a firm believer in the Second Amendment and an opponent of all federal gun laws," Paul told lawmakers. "In fact, I have introduced legislation, the Second Amendment Restoration Act (H.R. 153), which repeals misguided federal gun-control laws such as the Brady Bill and the assault-weapons ban. I believe the Second Amendment is one of the foundations of our constitutional liberties."

However, he continued, "another foundation of those liberties is the oath all of us took to respect constitutional limits on federal power. While I understand and sympathize with the goals of the proponents of the [Act], this bill exceeds those constitutional limitations, and so I must oppose it."

Visitors to gun-rights website KeepAndBearArms.com voiced support for Paul.

comes to choosing between Ron Paul and the NRA, I'll pick Ron every time," visitor who claimed to be from Paul's district in Texas. "I'm glad to say he is my representative, and while I was initially surprised he voted 'against,' I understand the reason he did and I still support him."

"If the NRA opposes Ron Paul in any election bid, I will immediately cancel my NRA membership and I will never join the NRA again … ever," said another reader.

opposes Ron Paul and they'll regret that," said another. "Ron Paul never compromises on Second Amendment issues."

Not everyone agreed. "I am stunned by Ron Paul's position on this one and will be talking to him about it as soon as I possibly can," said one reader.

NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre praised the House vote.

"Congress acted … to protect one of America's oldest and most honorable industries," he said. "Their action is a big step forward toward ending these careless lawsuits. These suits are a deliberate attempt aimed at manipulating our legal system to advance a failing political agenda."

In his floor statement, Paul summed up his opposition to the bill on constitutional grounds.

"It is long past time for Congress to recognize that not every problem requires a federal solution," he said. "I would remind my fellow supporters of gun rights that using unconstitutional federal powers to restrict state gun lawsuits makes it more likely those same powers will be used to restrict our gun rights." ”

“what about circular saw rights?”

“Exactly, STRAT! My second amendment rights are not compromised by lawsuits against US gun manufacturers. The gun manufacturer's profits certainly are, though.”

“I'm not sure how I feel about gun laws...I see valid points on all sides of the issue. I even have an urge to own one for myself.

What frightens me, however, is that I can't help thinking that if I had been carrying a gun around all these years I probably would have shot someone by now.”

“Here my unprofessional opinion: I don't aproof of guns just laying around the house without security, specially if you have kids. I know it wont' help much, but it maybe would be a good thing if we would have to buy some sort of lockbox with the gun. I know not everybody will use it, but some will.

I think the criminals have ways to get guns no matter what, and I have the right to protect myself, thus buying a gun legaly. Nothing wrong with that.

Educate your children on how to handle a gun. I can't believe I just said that. I was so against guns in the same house with me just 1/2 year ago or so, but hey times change.

I repeat: Make sure your kids can not get a hold of your gun/rifle in your household. That does't guarantee that your childs friends parents do the same, I know that, and I have to admit it does worry me.”

“I collect firearms and have a number of them. I started teaching my children about firearms at a very early age. Not how to shoot as much as how to do the Eddie Eagle thing. Stop, don't touch, tell an adult. I trust them quite a lot. That said, you're asking for trouble leaving firearms around where any kids can access them. Just not bright. Kids will at some point be exposed to firearms, probably at someone else home when you're not there, how they handle the situation is a matter of training, no matter how you feel about them ever using them. Like matches I would rather they know which end is which, not to play with them, and to avoid them rather than remaining ignorant of them as some would have them be. The problem with trigger locks, etc ( other than not being accessible to you in a hurry) is that the people who would use them are already responsible about keeping them isolated, the others never will be.”

“I am just as much in favor of Second Amendment Rights as I am in First Amendment Rights.

I also think the vast majority of "accidents" is a direct result of lack of education. My kids know the difference between a real gun and a play gun. They also know "when in doubt, dont". Additionally, they have seen the direct effects of a round striking an object.

I think making them aware of the powerful responsibility of gun ownership is much better than hiding it from them.”

“On average, a child a day dies in gun-related incidents, and it's predicted that the rate will overtake child deaths in car accidents within five years.
American children are 12 times more likely to die from firearms than those in any other supposedly civilised nation.

Opponents argue that people have a right to protect themselves, but statistics show that a gun kept at home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or a friend, than an intruder.

I posted this stuff earlier on the thread I think, it's from the Daily Mirror.
Someone posted something on Gemini's thread about people getting at her for passing her concealed weapons test. I would like to make it clear I have nothing against anyone who acts within the law and decides to own a gun.
It is not the right choice for me. I just wish there were tighter controls on guns, limiting who can get hold of them - making it a little safer for those who make a choice not to own a gun.”

“I don't have a problem with hunting.”

“You beat me to it Violman.

Whiskey boy are you any relation to a Mr. Gardens of the CAPS clan?”

“Whiskey River take me home.”

“I don't think too many people do Rosey - Whiskey, it would appear, would rather criticise people for what he says they think than what they actually say.”

“By the way, you might want to separate issues of whether hunting is OK or guns are useful from whether there should be registration or liscensing (or from regulation of handguns and/pr automatic and semi-automatic guns).”

“It would be hard for an accidental rate that has been decreasing for 20 years to overtake anything. At the present time a child is about 5 times more likely to be killed by a pool in the neighborhood than a firearm and twice as likely to die in a 5 gallon bucket. Your stats are screwed up and like most of these they likely include gang violence from gang on gang clashes and include " children" as old as 20.”

“Mtnman, where did you get your stats?”

“That could well be true. I've not studdied this directly. The figures, like most people's, are second hand and could well include gang violence.
But the fact still exists that children do incredibly stupid things. You can teach your children how to handle these things and in most cases that will be fine, but every so often children will want to play with guns and are you are asking for trouble by having one in the house - that's without going into the details of shootings at schools.
I think it would be a brave parent who could say 100% that their child will never do something stupid, look at teen drug, crime and pregnancy statistics. If a gun is for home defence then I think your probably safer spending the money on securing the exterior of your home. (I know some of you guys live too far away from civilisation for this). I think there a a lot of statistics thrown about on this. A lot of them wrong, from both sides. I know for example that the often used example of gun restictions and crime in the UK is wrong - completely wrong.

The comparison with pools is, I assume, an attempt to say that gun are safe. This is not true. They are made to kill. I also doubt the statistics given, particularly for the five-gallon bucket What are the actual numbers for this, and what are the exact details of what was icluded in the numbers for gun deaths.
I would say that a gun should be the last option for home defense, not the first.”

“I really don't trust stats when it comes to this issue. It's just too easy to fuge the numbers. Handguns Inc. include all suicides into their homocide stats.

Has anyone else seen the Bs about the amount of public funds being spent by the Center for Disease Control on gun studies? It's enfuriating.”

“All good points, none really argueable. As for my house I have an alarm, good doors, two dogs( golden retrievers not attack dogs, but noisy), and a 12 ga pump gun stored in a maner where I can get it but my kids can't. I also have a safe for the other stuff. No arguement here that you have to be stupid, to leave anything dangerous where kids can get at it, regardless of trust and training.

Gun accidents are generally committed by unusually reckless people with records of heavy drinking, repeated involvement in automobile crashes, many traffic citations, and prior arrests for assault. Gun accidents, then, involve a rare and atypical subset of the population, as both shooters and victims. They rarely involve children, and most commonly involve adolescents and young adults."

Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995, and to 148 in 2000. More children die from accidental drownings or burns than from gun accidents.

(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).

The risk of being a victim of a fatal gun accident can be better appreciated if it is compared to a more familiar risk...Each year about five hundred children under the age of five accidentally drown in residential swimming pools, despite the fact that there are only about five million households with swimming pools, compared to at least 43 million with guns. Thus, based on owning households, the risk of a fatal accident among small children is over one hundred times higher for swimming pools than for guns.
Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 296 Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.)

And I swore I wouldn't cut and paste into a BB. I have tons more but like Nigal said stats are easy to manipulate. I believe thase are fairly accurate, still the point is made.”

“I take your point mtnman, but I don't think the camparisons are false, but neither do they prove the argument conclusively. Just beacuse guns aren't the most dangerous thing to a child, that doesn't mean they are not dangerous. Children are also not the only issue.”

“Gosh if you look at the accidental death stats, almost anything can kill you from rollerskates to candy bars. My point is a lot of the hype on guns is BS, we're not banning soccer or ladders, or 5 gallon buckets, but every time someone, especially a child, is hurt or killed its a national news frenzy and exploited for a political agenda. The world is a dangerous place and I try to protect my childen from every bit of it I can. Common sense and responsibility are the keys. I don't leave matches or toxic chemicals out with the cool-aid and I don't leave loaded guns around. There are idiots and bad parents, not much can be done to legislate intelligence or responsibility.
Regards,
M”

“I think it's a legitimate political issue though. Anyone who is anti gun is not just trying to cut your personal freedoms, as seems to be a view held by many. They want to do something about a problem which is genuine and affects the lives of thousands of people in terms of gun crime. Despite what people say, guns are easy to get, and the outlawing guns outlaws statement is just saying that there's nothing that can be done to improve the situation. By making guns readily available, legally or illegally, (most guns start their life as legally manufactured weapons) it does help arm criminals. Guns are a fact of life here, I can see that. They're not going to go away. But I don't think that any attempt to provide greater control should be seen by gun advoactes as the start of a slippery slope to an outright ban on guns - that's just not going to happen. There seems to be a hysterical reaction, promoted by the NRA, to any attempt to offer a little more control or to improve the situation.”

“Me and my Abrams
Drivin down the avenue”

“Well put, Ynami. The questions really should boil down to: Why do so many Americans kill each other with guns?

A good sub-question is, How can we prevent Gun-Violence?”

“Hmmm, no Violin cut-and-pastes on this issue today? The ol boy must be slipping.”

“I'm really shocked at y'all. Nobody's posted that gun control means hitting what you aimed at.”

“but remember, women and children don't lead em' so much.”

“I really have no more time to waste here. It would not phase you to know that less than .2% of all the firearms manufactured will be used in a crime or that there are in excess of 22,000 laws regulating these on the books now that could use enforcement before passing more feel good laws. There are a lot of evil things done by relatively few people, and those relatively few people don't obey laws, they don't register firearms, they don't turn tehm in for new sneakers at buy backs, they don't buy them at retail outlets or gun shows either (less than 1% source). They steal them and buy them black market mostly from others that stold them. There is no " gun crime" there is only crime, commited by criminals, not inanimate objects. Otherwise there would be "rock crime" stick crime and "ball bat crime" as well. Geeez”

“Lets use the old chestnut of say should we ban rocks. Lets just keep our eyes shut and chant that and we won't have to deal with the fact that there is a problem with gun crime.
Gun crime is real - crimes committed by criminals with GUNS, the weapon of choice. I would say the chances of a criminal holding up a bank with a rock are prerry small.”

“Rocks don't kill people. Gravity, mass and inertia kills people.”

“The Ninth Circuit has denied rehearing a case which held that the Second Amendment doesn't secure an individual right to bear arms. The dissenting opinion by Kozinski is very interesting however: OPINION”

“whaddya expect?

it's the ninth.

The nation's judicial joke.”

“Not only is Kozinski's opinion interesting but it's also correct.”

“The world needs more drunken teenagers with machine pistols in school.



Friday, May 23, 2003

Student who took machine pistol to school arrested

By SAM SKOLNIK
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

A White Center high school sophomore who brought a loaded machine pistol to school in his backpack yesterday told authorities he needed it for protection outside of school after a drive-by shooting at his home a month ago.

King County Sheriff Dave Reichert and Evergreen High School officials said there was no indication that the 17-year-old boy, who was arrested, had threatened or was planning to shoot anyone on school grounds.

The incident began about 11 a.m., when a school official noticed that the boy smelled of alcohol. The student was referred to the office of Vice Principal Jackie Lewis, who asked him whether he had any alcohol in his backpack.

The boy would not allow Lewis to search the pack, so Lewis called in deputy sheriff Steve Beets, the on-site school resource officer. Beets, smelling alcohol on the boy's breath, opened the pack and discovered the weapon.

Catherine Carbone Rogers, a spokeswoman for the Highline School District, said the boy was expelled immediately for carrying a weapon on school property.

The student likely faces several charges including possession of a firearm on school grounds and holding a concealed weapon without a permit, a sheriff's spokesman said.

Officials said the weapon was a Mac-10 machine pistol, but they did not yet know whether it was fully- or semi-automatic. The weapon, Reichert said, was loaded with several dozen bullets in a magazine that carries 32 bullets.

"Certainly any time a youngster brings a gun to a school is a very serious matter," Reichert said. "He's a teenager carrying a weapon that holds 32 bullets into a school. ... It's a great concern to us."

Reichert said his office was looking into the possibility the student had gang connections.



Noting the boy's contention that the pistol was for protection off school grounds, Reichert backed off an earlier suggestion in a news release that the discovery of the weapon had "probably averted what could have been a huge tragedy."

"It was a dangerous situation," said Highline spokeswoman Rogers. "But there is no reason to believe it was going to be used here."

Rogers said there is no metal detector at Evergreen, which is at 830 S.W. 116th St. in the White Center area of unincorporated King County. Instead, the school relies on school resource officer Beets, as well as a school security officer.

Rogers said it would be up to the school board to install a metal detector. Until now, she said, "the school board hasn't felt a need for it."

Rogers and Beets said this was the first time in recent memory that a gun was found on school grounds.

One student said she believed the boy may have brought the weapon in just to show off to friends.

"I've never heard of anyone with a gun in here," said Lani Luyando, a junior.

Luyando said it would have been easy to bring a gun into Evergreen undetected, and that the school was just lucky that he was caught.

Beets said he knew the student in question and that he hadn't been a "major discipline problem."

In fact, Beets said the boy had been a student in a class he taught at Evergreen called "Introduction to Criminal Justice."

[Note: The original story and headline incorrectly referred to the weapon as a machine gun.]”

“So, what's the King County Sheriff doing about the root problem: street violence?

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

Hey! Maybe if the resources spent ($$$!) on marijuana law enforcement was diverted to fighting crime, the route home would be safe enough so's the kid wouldn't have to pack heat to walk the street...

Just a thought.”

“A Mac-10???


I thought gun control already made that illegal. What else can be done?”

“Surprised it was not an AK-47. People will always be able to aquire guns. No matter how strict the laws get, it will still happen. The people who get caught selling illegal firearms need to face more serious charges, more jail time, or hell just kill them.”

“My point exactly WK,,,here in the South, people still have the guns their forefathers used in the Civil War. It would take an unlimited number of generations with a complete ban to get them all off the black market.”

“Parents?? I doubt it. Where the F did this kid lay havds to a " machine pistol" I think they still got it wrong, a machine pistol of almost any variety is fully or selectively automatic and costs over a grand. Its likely one of those cheap crap semi auto 9mm or 22LR things. the mere statement that it holds 32 rds makes it likely a .22, still who is responsible for this punk that he could get one of those. I agree with putting sellers of arms to these kind of juveniles, etc under the jail.”

“Should I run for President?”

“the wife of a victom of the DC snipers is suing the gun manufacturer AND the place WHERE THEY STOLE IT FROM. absurd.

switzerlans has the lowest violent crime rate in europe and they are required to keep automatic weapons in their homes. britain has the strictest gun laws and guess what else they also have? the highest crime rates....”

“Strat, you know nothing - N O T H I N G - about crime in UK. So don't go quoting it.”

“Stratdewd, if anyplace needs to get sued, shut down and the owner hauled off to prison, it's the gun shop they stole the weapon from.

How the hell does anyone shoplift a 3-foot long rifle?

Why does the gun shop not file a report about the theft? Or about the 78 other weapons that were unaccounted for?

All this happened two years after the ATF found this gun shop couldn't account for 160 weapons and had failed to do background checks to make sure they weren't selling to convicted felons. This bozo sold on average 10 guns a year traced to crimes.

Oh yeah, the owner forgot to pay his taxes for the past 8 years. But by God, it's his constitutional right to sell guns, right?”

“the point is, criminals don't care if they break the law and will therefore aquire guns no matter how strict the laws are.

if the gun shop broke the law, they should be punished”

“Come on Strat, enlighten me with your knowledge of crime in Europe.”

“Where to start?… where to start?…

First of all, where the #&%!$ is switzerlans?

Swiss militia members are permitted to bring their weapons home with them, but from what I can gather, there is no law requiring them or anyone else in Switzerland to keep automatic weapons in their homes. Perhaps you have a source I can’t seem to locate on the internet. This is a fact sheet on Swiss Gun Laws from a pro gun organization. The table below shows the link between gun ownership and homicide rates in a number of countries. The ownership rate in Switzerland excludes military weapons kept at home.


___________homicide rate per million_____% of households with guns
USA --------------75.9 ----------------------------------------------48
Switzerland ------11.7 ----------------------------------------------27.2
Finland -----------29.6 ----------------------------------------------23.2
France -------------22.6 ---------------------------------------------22.6
New Zealand -----20.2 ---------------------------------------------22.3
Australia ----------19.5 ---------------------------------------------19.4
Sweden ------------13.3 ---------------------------------------------15.1
W.Germany -------12.1 ---------------------------------------------8.9
England & Wales - 6.7 ---------------------------------------------4.7

 Per Killias, M. (1993). 'Gun ownership, suicide and homicide: an international perspective'. In, Understanding Crime and Experiences of Crime and Crime Control, del Frate, A., Zvekic, U. and van Dijk, J.J.M. (Eds.). UNICRI Publication No. 49. Rome: UNICRI.

The Swiss are debating further tightening gun laws after their worst ever massacre last year in which 14 people were gunned down with a government issued firearm.”

“With all the gun laws passed the past few years, look at how much our crime rate has dropped.


Oh wait, it hasn't dropped.”

“Could someone cue up the ‘Jeopardy’ music please?”