TC2 update

“Since this is scheduled for Dec. 7th & Dec 8th, can we show up Friday afternoon or evening. I don't know if those country roads can handle the traffic if everyone shows up Sat. BTW watch out for the speed traps in some of the towns.”

“Ewker: Oh, absolutely.. Most folks are driving several hours, or even FLYING in.. so we can't expect anyone to come that far for just one day..

Most folks will plan on being there the entire weekend. Coming in on Friday is not only acceptable, it is expected. By the way.. why waste Saturday coming in.. when you can come in Friday, get camp set up, and spend your Saturday dayhiking any of the great trails in the Big South Fork area.

:)”

“"There are an estimated 100 abandoned deep coal mine openings and associated spoil piles within the National Area. Mine reclamation efforts, funded by the Office of Surface Mining, have concentrated on areas having visitor access. Approximately 300 active or abandoned oil or gas wells and an unknown number of unmapped wells exist within the National Area. Mineral development is a possibility on the 18,900 acres where previous owners have retained mineral rights, subject to the National Area legislative restrictions and Federal regulations."

http://data2.itc.nps.gov/nature/naturalfeatures.cfm?alphacode=BISO”

“I'm going up on Thursday. Might as well make an event out of it.”

“Thanks Tilt, you just killed my optimistic outlook for the day.”

“First- Katibug please attend if possible...It will be ok,I promise.

Second-
It looks like I will not be able to go, family events are more important than my events.

I have a bunch of time and money invested in this thing-make it what it should be-fun, friends and a really good time for all.

I will continue to work the prize patrol for you guys, Towndawg is supposed to come to town this weekend to hit up some vendors for more prizes...I have another bag o stuff for him to pick up.

Stikmon- I'm counting on you to take up my slack--sorry guy.Tell Khatru double bacon next time.

Goose-keep some ashes for me.

See ya'll next year.”

“I plan on coming, just not sure of the logistics of bringing a 3 month old.”

“Isn't that why you have a Humanpackmule?”

“Something like that. I mean hanging aroung all weekend with her. You know, practicalities.”

“Babies are portable and manageable, until they are mobile. Take advantage. She'll be the hit of the party. Yo'll just have to pack out diapers. ;-)”

“THAT'S what humanpackmules are for!!”

“DOH!”

“You had better thank Tilt. Fall into an old mine and next thing you'll be banned from TT.”

“I'm talking about the mineral development aspect.”

“oh. I should have read it. sheesh.”

“I though it'd be cool! Like crevasses without the ice, LOL”

“Sorry but I will not be attending this event. I cannot participate in an event that may negatively impact a wilderness area by the presence of a large number of people. There are more appropriate places in which 150 or more people may congregate and hold an event such as this in a way that will not environmentally impact the area. My convictions as an environmentalist will not allow me to participate in an event that may impact Big South Fork in such a way that it might take years for this section of natural area to recuperate. I can appreciate that everyone wishes to have a fun time and hold this event but the numbers of people allowed to register to attend the event in this particular location should have been kept at the bare minimum.
I regret that I have caused inconvenience to you having backed out as a judge but my decision is final.”

“Katibug, you posted this a bunch of times. Enough already. We understand your concerns.

But a point of note. Won't the ground be frozen this time of year? Isn't it hard to damage frozen ground? That would be part of the allure, I would think, in holding this event in the winter.

Litter can be picked up, especially by backpackers. I would assume there won't be campfires all over hell (although I could be wrong). Isn't this event to see how people cook things with their stoves? (OK, if it includes campfires, shoot me in the foot then)

If I'm wrong, please explain why. Hey, you have a long-time card-carrying Sierra Club member here, too. Don't drill in my wildnerness, or run a "thumper" truck over ruins to look for oil pockets (just read about this happening at the new "Ancients" Monument near Cortez, CO)... but do go ahead and have some fun with environmentally concerned people.”

“No the ground won't be frozen. And yes frozen ground is hard to damage. But the vegetation will be destroyed by the numbers of people walking, sitting, and sleeping on it, if the ground is frozen. Talk about LNT, won't happen at this party.”

“Lizs, this is Tennessee, not the Yukon. :D”

“You have to put this in perspective.

While I respect katibug's position, it is not like this is a pristine area, never before touched by human hand.

This is a lodge. Method of entry is by foot, horseback or "mountain bike".

I would think there is far more evironmental damage done by far smaller groups. I feel comfortable assured that TC2 will be conducted with the environment in mind and end with the grounds being well policed.”

“Somebody say 'Yukon'?

"HUSH, you muskies!"

er....

"MUSH, you huskies!"”

“To all of you who think I am being anoying about environmental concerns- I WILL NEVER KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT OR QUIT EMPHASIZING ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS! I am not just a "card carrying Sierra Club member" I am a passionate environmental activist! I have discussed this event with fellow Tennessee Sierra Club members this past weekend at the TN Chapter Fall Meeting and there have been concerns raised by people besides me regarding the potential environmental impact associated with this event. Big South Fork is not as heavily used as say the Smokies but a weekend in one area of Big South Fork that will be visited by a concentrated number of people will produce effects that will take several years to alter. I am the Outings Chair for the Middle TN Sierra Club, and have led 24 backpacking trips so far this year. Recently, I made a decision to limit the number of participants on the trips that I will be leading to a maximum of 8 people. Even that size of a group has the potential to harm the environment in a wilderness area. If each of us do not take personal responsibility for taking care of our wilderness areas through our actions, there won't be places for future generations to enjoy. One more question-How many folks at TC2 will burn their plastic in campfires? I cannot stress enough how harmful burning plastic is to humans and the environment. I have witnessed several TT folks on past hikes laugh while throwing plastic into the campfire. Folks, burning plastic emits harmful chemicals into the air that the folks sitting around the fire breath. In addition, the ozone layer is effected. While I am not in opposition to people having a great time in the wilderness, I do expect folks to behave responsibly and be accountable for their actions.”

“ya now,,,once you get those old car tires burning,,,they sure put off a lot of heat....

j/k”

“maybe there are others who are keeping quiet though.
if this was any other group of people i'd be a lot more concerned than i am.
but, my understanding is a lot of the people will actually be stayin IN the lodge, am i right?
i also reckon the ground around this place is already pretty trampled. 150 people running around in 1 spot is like 10 horses, which im sure has been done.
we all know there will be no garbage left, probly less than before it starts.
tents in the field are the only concern i see, and grass doens't take years to grow back.
this can be done responsibly, imo. it's just not gonna be the easiest thing in the world, but we've already seen the effort being put out for this event.
katibug, trust me, im not trying to change your mind, im mostly just putting my thoughts out there.”

“Whoooooooo... could imagine.....”

“And this is one thing that drives me nuts about the Sierra Club. If it's something worth making an issue about, make it. But it seems this is surely barking up the proverbial wrong tree.

Take on some real, meaningful issues. Not trying to pound an at-best neglible point into people who are already far leaps and bounds beyond the rest of the general mass consumer public. Take your message to Joe Blow Car Camper.

I was full-fledged behind the combined effort of the Sierra Club and a fly fishermen's group in my area to protest a factory hog farm sitting 200 feet up a steep hill from a trout stream with a naturally reproducing trout population. Will that incorporated manure stay on that hillside? Or will it fowl up the stream, the fish and everything else following in the biological chain? That's an issue.

OK, is the Charit Lodge area a designated wilderness area? Since mountain bikes are an allowed form of transportation to the site, I think not. Remote, yes; wilderness, no. I've been to Big South Fork. It's beautiful. The land's had a lot of hard uses over the years... I think a group of TT'ers hardly compares to mining issues.

Oh yes, and just this weekend I ran into a couple TTers in my local woods out of the blue. Interesting to watch them peel plastic off a drink container, specifically peeling it off, before putting the container into the campfire.

Don't waste time on the small things. Put your effort into other, far more threatening situations.”

“You all just don't get it!”

“Katibug, YOU don't get it. It's a DEVELOPED AREA. GET OVER IT.”

“Charit creek lodge is where this event is being held. It looks to me like a spot built for impact. It's also a managed location, meaning they aren't going to damage the property by allowing a group so big as to "destroy" the area. We aren't just dropping down in any old spot in the woods that strikes our fancy.”

“YO WAS ALL DA FUSS ABOUT? YO CAN"T WE JUST CHILL LIKE DAT”

“It's not just the lodge area that concerns me and others like me! The emissions from all the extra vehicles coming into the park for the event will have an impact on the air quality in the area which in turn has an effect on the trees and wildlife. The amount of sewage generated by 150 or more people will have an effect on the environment, etc., etc., etc.

I am not going to debate this subject any longer with you guys. I hope you all will behave responsibly and have a good time there. I realize that you all think I am a radical "green." So be it. Think of me what you will-I don't care! I know that the position that I have taken on this event is correct. That is all I am going to say about it!”

“Fer Pete's Sake! Let's leave katiebug alone. Some may not agree with her reasons, but they are HER reasons. I like katiebug, and will miss my fellow judge. I also admire her convictions, but will still attend and have fun. (BTW - I'll also be picking up stray trash along the way, as I and many other TT'rs normally do)

Hope to see you soon!”

“I appreciate your support. I am not really worried about you, and I know that there are many other TT folks who act responsibly on the trail. I have no problem with the original idea of 48 folks being at the lodge that weekend or anytime for that matter as the lodge is designed for that type of impact associated with a ballpark figure of 48 folks.

I will look forward to seeing my fellow TT folks on other trips in the future when the group size will not be huge!”

“KATIBUG- my concerns were for you,
I think your concerns are valid,if a bit overblown.

Towndawg says the the only real rules with Charit Creek has are that their will only be 3 fire rings-also the "plumbing should be on" as it will not be frozen.

The area is private-but it is in a National Rec area- I feel confident that those attending and organizing will take care of things.

Again my concerns were for you, while it does not look like I will be there,I know the leave no trace rules will observed.

Have faith- The ones we speak of are the best our Earth has as friends.”

“Katibug...as far as impact...Charit creek is set and created for this...if not, they;d have said no to TD. As for your convictions on the environment...I hope you sold your car and are walking to work...or riding a bike...or eating organic food or not throwing trash out on tuesdays...or take back your walmart bags on every visit...or don't use makeup...or not use deodorant...or don't buy any items that do not have recycled packaging....

you know what...I think that the whole thing of "sierra club" is for the birds...Its just a way for you and the rest to make yourselves feel superior in your smugness over those that don't "join" the group. as for groups...I'm a LEADER, not a follower...I don't need to join a group to do good things...

If you don't want to come to TC2...Don't!!!!!!!!! no one will miss you...but DON'T YOU DARE, call the rest of us non-conservationists and non-caring about the environment...I'll bet you a years salary that I have picked up more trail litter and river litter this year than you have. If your done posting your "opinions" than be done and go post somewhere else...the rest of us want to have fun and meet in a place that interests us and have a good time. Guaranteed, that when we vacate, CCL...it will look like we were never there. and you know what...you;ll never know that fact, cause your trivial attitudes will prevent you from ever experiencing it. see ya there...NOT!!!”

“'Nuff!!! Y'all back off Katibug...she's done...”

“next time just step up and speak your mind stikmon....

I respect kati's opinion,,,,dont agree with it,,,,but hell,,,I respect it”

“Katibug
I respect most of what you say. I think your a bit overboard but hey, that's your oppinion.
As backpackers, I think we are some of Natures best friends.
Some areas are set aside (campsites, lodges, shelters, ect to carry the burden of "impact by people". If the folks at Big South Fork thought it would be too much impact, they'd not let it happen.
Also remember, Even if 300 people show up at TC2, That's only a fraction that will be in the Smokys that weekend.

I'm done now.”

“Maybe there not thru - What's this "Nuff!!!!!" stuff Father Goose? She can ramble on and on and on and on and on and on, can't anyone else speak their mind. Guess not.

Very good point Stikmon, well said.

I get your concerns on this Kati, thanks for sharing your views. But I don't see eye to eye with you, so I will still be attending this event.”

“I admit, I've burned a ziplock baggie or two in a fire ring before. I've even thrown rocks at a bear.
But! I have also done beyond my fair share of packing out litter and digging through fire rings to remove tin cans that people have tossed in that WON'T decentagrate. It's good that your giving talks to people that don't think about such things. I believe your preaching to the (what is it ya call the singers off to the side?) here though.”

“Sipsey clean up is evidence of what the dude says.”

“...choir...”

“I was allowed to rant just like everyone else...so..."nuff" ain't enough. I like Katibug, I enjoyed meeting her, even though I didn't hike with her that day...but...I don't agree with her, nor do I like being put into a catagory that is environmentally unfriendly...I don't think that any of us that attend the TC2 event should be called that...and I for one resent being put into that catagory...maybe I'm done...maybe I'm not...depends on what others continue to post...

Not to bring up old dirt...but Aero was permitted to rake Prowler over the coals for such a long time...FG...no offense...but I think that Katibug can defend herself perty good,,,her writing skills seem to be of sufficient caliber to do that...so, I respectively decline your "nuff". again...maybe I'm done...maybe I'm not...got some business to attend the next couple of days, then an awsome backpacking trip with Jgiles and Stalker...we'll see when Monday rolls around if I have more to say...and yes...I can be a real a$$hole when I want to be...and right now...I want to be.”

“Im a Serria Club member as well!

This place its being held has traffic like this ALL the time!!!

If you want NO im[pact I can give you one major way to change that for your self (besides the point)!

No one ever was thginking about burning garbage? IM NOT !! SO give it up and shut up about the damn TC2 and have them contact the Cincinnati Branch if there is actually a REAL problem! You shoulod be protesting Bushs moves and MAJOR enviromental problems right know because there ARE so many. TC2 wil be fine and if you want to come with the Serria Club then come and educate people and get some more members involved thats the way you should go about it. Posting on TT isnt going to change a dam mind! DAAHH!”

“Yikes!

As for TC2 ... I can't wait!

I'm bringing my daughter (12 yrs) and a good attitude ... and an appetite for fun.

Can't wait!”

“increased exhaust emmisions from increased vehicle traffic?...just for that comment i'm going to go drive around the mall 200 times for no reason, and drive my car to the mailbox”

“I was a long time member up to a year or so ago.
The sierra club helped pass a law banning waterjet-powered small craft (jetski, waverunners) from within two miles of the Gulf Coast barrier islands. The reason was all these little jetskis were "tearing up the seagrass".
Big boats with the 150-300+ HP props were NOT banned.
So now, only the upper-middle to upper class can afford a boat big enought to safely get to the wild parts of the islands.
I have a waverunner I used to go out to the islands on to camp.
I can not now thanks to the sierra club and the rich jerks that didn't like the riff-raft sharing the islands.”

“Rule number 1: When you take a controversial position on TT, brace for the storm that may follow.

Rule number 2: When you advance a position on TT that you think is both right and popular, see Rule number 1.”

“How many people will be driving through the Smokys that weekend?

How many people will be impacting all the Camp Grounds in the Smokys that weekend (or any other weekend for that matter)?

How many people begin a Thru-Hike on the AT every year?

How many people use the back country in the Smokys every weekend?



Let's just ban ALL people from ever using the woods again. That should make all the Extream Tree Huggers happy! That way NONE of us can hurt the fraggile wilderness.


My f**kin ass.”