the pledge is unconstitutional!

“Unreal, people really don't have enough to do! What's it going to take another World War to pull people together and stop the #&%!$ing about stupid $hit! I wish these people would get a life!! From what my history classes taught me the whole god thing wasn't meant to offend anyone but to have a unified being instead of a King like the English were used to... wasn't it??”

“Why the hell are kids reciting the pledge of allegiance anyway?

Have them do something useful, like recite the gettysburg address or the bill of rights. It seems to me that the hollow patriotism we practice when we recite the pledge is more harmful than any reference to God in it.

All of us here can recite the pledge, but how many can tell me what the eleventh amendment is? Don't cheat.

Educated patriotism is, by far, a more powerful force than rote pledges.

"I love my country"

"why?"

"Because I love my country"

Pfft.”

“Couldn't agree more. The things about our country that we really need to know, are not seemingly important enough to teach in school. Better to spew beer at your television screen and get righteous about the Pledge.”

“yeah, the whole zombie-esque feeling of reciting the pledge always creeped me out a bit, Phaedrus. in elementary school, how much independent thinking about god and country do most kids do? not a whole lot, i'll bet...and some people don't do that when they're adults, either. to see a whole bunch of people chanting about it at once is really sort of scary...but i also think ritualized things like that serve to make people think about why it happens, and what the symbolism means to them, so it can be a blessing in disguise.

Itsonlynatural, from a psychological standpoint, a king, a god, a country are all the same sorts of symbols...things that demand servitude, that are "all-powerful," that one is at the mercy of, etc., etc., etc. i think that struggling against "given" notions of these things, and searching for one's own interpretation of god or power or whatever you want to call it, is one of the most important and formative aspects of a person's life. it IS "getting a life," so to speak!

oh yeah, newgirl--the price is $15 and your soul, discount's $5. i think that's a no-brainer, don't you? ;-)”

“I think you are putting an unusually high price on my soul, Lyra. You don't know what kind of mileage I might have on it.”

“Oh, and by the way, I agree that the reference to God in the pledge should be taken out. It has even less to do with the love of country than the pledge itself. I love my country, but I do not love any "God" that my country is "under". The phrase makes the pledge of allegiance a lie for me.”

“I'm in Lyra. Although, Aero is the funniest man alive, he doesn't offer a discount to me if I pledge my allegiance. You, on the other hand, are only asking for my soul and ten bucks.”

“I know! I know what the 11th Amendment covers!

Pretty dry all in all, however the significance was in that Congress was acted for the first time to address the results of the Supreme Court's decision that interpreted a provision of the Constitution that was contrary to the intent of the People.

At this point in the history of our Country, there was still considerable animosity between the Powers of Government and an extremely wary view of any action that appeared to usurp authority.”

“should i care?? i'm going to bed zzz”

“What is the going price for a soul, these days? I've got a classic '54 model.
I kinda like rituals, Lyra. The only time they creep me out is when they are beyond questioning. That is scary when people pledge to something they don't understand.
As far as the term "God" goes, I have no problem with MY definition of it. However, if I were to impose my definition on the majority of Americans, I think they might have a problem with it. See, even Bacpac can understand why the court finds this unconstitutional now.”

“Exactly right Chili! Somehow, I believe that the understanding that the congress had to take back power form the supreme court is more important than the incessant recital of a pledge that doesn't need to be said by those who believe in its words, and won't change those who don't.”

“was it garfum who said that about religion is the basis for all laws in society?

well, seems that might be right
by the way, I agree with the notion that separation of church and state is best, what lyra said and many others on this thread

yeah!
seems to me that we are still evoloving, oops evolving socially
we try, we fail to find the perfect society but we keep trying
good to keep trying and understand that we will get better if we stay open to all ideas and make it so that all voices are heard

from a search with Google on the subject Hammurabi:

The Code of Hammurabi :
Introduction
Charles F. Horne, Ph.D.
1915
. . .[Hammurabi] was the ruler who chiefly established the greatness of Babylon, the world's first metropolis. Many relics of Hammurabi's reign ([1795-1750 BC]) have been preserved, and today we can study this remarkable King . . . as a wise law-giver in his celebrated code. . .

. . . [B]y far the most remarkable of the Hammurabi records is his code of laws, the earliest-known example of a ruler proclaiming publicly to his people an entire body of laws, arranged in orderly groups, so that all men might read and know what was required of them. The code was carved upon a black stone monument, eight feet high, and clearly intended to be reared in public view. This noted stone was found in the year 1901, not in Babylon, but in a city of the Persian mountains, to which some later conqueror must have carried it in triumph. It begins and ends with addresses to the gods. Even a law code was in those days regarded as a subject for prayer, though the prayers here are chiefly cursings of whoever shall neglect or destroy the law.

The code then regulates in clear and definite strokes the organization of society. The judge who blunders in a law case is to be expelled from his judgeship forever, and heavily fined. The witness who testifies falsely is to be slain. Indeed, all the heavier crimes are made punishable with death. Even if a man builds a house badly, and it falls and kills the owner, the builder is to be slain. If the owner's son was killed, then the builder's son is slain. We can see where the Hebrews learned their law of "an eye for an eye." These grim retaliatory punishments take no note of excuses or explanations, but only of the fact--with one striking exception. An accused person was allowed to cast himself into "the river," the Euphrates. Apparently the art of swimming was unknown; for if the current bore him to the shore alive he was declared innocent, if he drowned he was guilty. So we learn that faith in the justice of the ruling gods was already firmly, though somewhat childishly, established in the minds of men.”

“yes, the liberty to question is the key, Dunadan. a classic '54 model, huh? aahhhh yes, perfectly ripe for the plucking!”

“Pledging to the flag seems odd to me. However, I would gladly pledge to the ideals of freedom, democracy, justice, and tolerance. All of these are the greatest of what makes up the USA, if you ask me.
While we are at it, we need a new national anthem, also.”

“Hey dunadan, you kow there's a second verse to the star spangled banner?”

“And a third...”

“Found it.

Lyrics:
First Verse
Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say, does that Star-Spangled Banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Second Verse
On the shore, dimly seen thro' the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream;
'Tis the Star-Spangled Banner, O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Third Verse
Oh, thus be it ever when free men shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto, "In God is our trust"
And the Star-Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!”

“I propose that Woody Guthrie's song become the new national anthem.”

“I vote for Cole Porter's "anything goes". And for those of you that think that's too undignified, please remember that the star spangled banner was originally a british drinking song...”

“I think Sweet Home Alabama should be the national anthem for everyone.”

“Good suggestion Chili!”

“This thread has taken a turn from emotional and hateful(kinda) to thoughtful and goofy - kewl.”

“new hampshire has it right.”

“So, next Congress will pass a multi trillion dollar bill to re-tool all the dies in the mints to remove the words "In God We Trust" from our coins so we can all be politically correct. Won't that be just dandy?

Funny how after 911 lots of folks wanted to know "How could God let something like this happen?" As if he alone was responsible for our years of neglect and laziness when it comes to national security. HA!!

He's a very convenient God when you need help or a miracle. What about when HIS chips are down? Who's gonna stick up for him then?

Well, I am. He is my God and I love him. You don't have to, but please respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours. I might even pray for ya, iffin ya ask real nice...

Tex”

“Wrong!

"Live Free Or Die", is awful and ambiguous.
It was imposed upon New Hampster by a certified jacka$$......oh, what was his name?
He was a native of Georgia who went to New Hamp. in search of a place without all those "darkies" who were being allowed to vote.
A place where he could tap into the stubborn and conservative nature of the people there.
Ah, Meldrim Thompson!!!
He's dead.....may he rest in pi$$!

Is someone going to kill me if I don't live up to their notion of "free"?


Woody Guthrie gets my vote.”

“no death threats from me. i really didn't think of the ambiguity. are you against patrick henry also?”

“Whew!! That was a long read. I think this resembles the big fusses about flag burning. When I was a little kid we did not say the under god bit and I was annoyed when they changed it so I hope they change it back.”

“when you have to testify in court do you still have to say
I promise to tell the truth and nothing but the truth SO HELP ME GOD while your hand is on a bible?

If you dont say it you go to jail for comtempt of court
if you do say it you go to jail for not seperating church and state???”

“I think that if you object, there is an alternative to "swearing in".

From Ask Jeeves "Your Day in Family Court"

""Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?." An alternative oath may be administered to you if you object to swearing under the name of God."”

“I'm sorry to be the one to inform you, Tex, but you have the wrong god. It's my god that you should be protecting. I am the only one alive who has the correct idea of who god is, what she looks like, and what kind of car she drives. Really, I'm just trying to help.”

“Give me Librium or give me Meth!”

“God is the ultimate in CEO-accounting scandals.

Tex, please. I respect your beliefs, but you have to know that putting them here in that fashion is just asking to be messed with.

Theological debates on the internet... The irony is vitually gushing from my keyboard.”

“LMAO @ Tilt!! i second that emotion.”

“One of the 9th Circuit US Court of Appeals judges lives here in Billings (and whose kid goes to our day care with ours) and will supervise the polling of the 23 members to reconsider the ruling. I just read that the Justice dept requested a full hearing by the 9th Circuit. They could vote to reconsider (but that dosne't happen often). Judge Goodwin decided to stay his ruling pending reconsideration. He wrote the 2-1 opinion by the court panel. The 9th circuit has 23 judges and 5 vancancies. The judge here says that they'll exchange memos internally and if a majority of the of the 23 favors a reconsideration, an 11-member panel would be chosen to rehear the case. If there would be a hearing it would be in Sept. After they make a decsion either side could appeal to the Sup[reme court. There are 3 criteria for granting reconsideration: exceptional importance; an internal circuit conflict; or an intra-circuit conflict with another 9th Circuit decision. The Pledge decision qualifies under the first two.”

“I am the only one alive who has the correct idea of who god is, what she looks like, and what kind of car she drives. Really, I'm just trying to help."
Dunadan
07:37:38 AM
06/28/02

Umm, Dunandan, judging from arclite's photo, I am pretty sure that the football god is not a woman.”

“No, no. She is. I used to work with her.”

“I’ll bet Ashcroft & Co. are pleased that the whole country will be distracted while they finish consolidating all power in the executive branch.

Hope y’all can goose-step and recite the pledge at the same time.”

“Oh #&%!$! Did I really just post that to the Internet?

I guess it’s OK, the FBI is only hunting terrorists on message boards right? How is a terrorist defined again? Oh yeah. Anyone that the attorney general points his finger at, that’s who.”

“It's not like that, Violin, we get due process here in the US... Okay, well, at least we get an attorney... Hey, at the very least, they can't put us to death...

Okay, Violin I'm with you. Time for the revolution.”

“At least a repeal of much of the Patriot Act. But let's get distracted by this first.”

“Who could wish for a repeal of an act with such an American name?”

“Isn't that similar to the Alien and Sedition act?”

“http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.02A.JVB.Patriot.htm " target="_blank">Jennifer Van Bergen thinks it should be called the Constitution Shredding Act. (Long read but well worth it.)”

“Life's too short to debate a three letter word kid's have to recite, I'm glad you're all changing it though... this country has been running like #&%!$ for the last X amount of years because of that damn 'GOD' reference in the pledge... maybe we can form a committee to figure this out? I for one am willing to pay the extra tax dollars to get to the bottom of this $hit!!

I will sleep so much better tonight, thanks for thinking of my feelings!”

“I come for visit, get treated regal,
So I stay, who care I illegal?
I cross border, poor and broke,
Take bus, see employment folk.
Nice man treat me good in there,
Say I need to see welfare.
Welfare say, "You come no more,
We send cash right to your door."
Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid it keep you healthy!
By and by, I got plenty money,
Thanks to you, American dummy.
Write to friends in motherland,
Tell them come as fast as you can.
They come in rags and Chebby trucks,
I buy big house with welfare bucks.
They come here, we live together,
More welfare checks, it gets better!
Fourteen families they moving in,
But neighbor's patience wearing thin.
Finally, white guy moves away,
Now I buy his house, and then I say,
"Find more aliens for house to rent."
And in the yard I put a tent.
Send for family (they just trash),
But they, too, draw the welfare cash!
Everything is mucho good,
And soon we own the neighborhood.
We have hobby-it's called breeding,
Welfare pay for baby feeding.
Kids need dentist? Wife need pills?
We get free! We got no bills!
American crazy! He pay all year,
To keep welfare running here.
We think America darn good place!
Too darn good for the white man race.
If they no like us, they can go,
Got lots of room in Mexico.”

“very nice boot!!”

“I saw an article today where they interviewed an "atheist" about why he wants the words "under god" taken out of the pledge.
Man, the media people can sometimes be morons, IMHO. Why not ask a theist why he/she doesn't want those words in the pledge. There are plenty of them out there. This is getting painted as theists vs atheists, which it is NOT.”

“Some people with small minds have a problem distinguishing patriotism from religion.”

“Well said GS.”

“My Dad my twin sister and I are going on a three day hike tommorow and I don't know what to eat right before we hit the trail or what to eat now? Any advice?”