the pledge is unconstitutional!

“Doesn't matter. Just be sure to take a "constitutional."”

“i'm sure everyone is pretty tired of this thread by now, as i am, but i was at the Jefferson Memorial over the weekend because my grandparents were visiting, and i saw a cool quote by Jefferson inscribed on the wall that i thought i might post. i know the fuss right now is over the pledge, and this quote has to do with changes in "laws and constitutions," but i'm sure you can see how it would relate to changing the pledge. saying that the pledge is unconstitutional may be true, but as this quote points out, the constitution in itself is pretty arbitrary. ANYhoo, here 'tis!

"I am certainly not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."”

“Oh, that Thomas Jefferson! What does he know? He's probably what, 250 years old by now?”

“i Thought something smelled funny... i thought it was cool, though...must've been the heat exhaustion setting in. i'll tell ya what, the next time someone comes to visit and wants to go "sightseeing," i'm pointing them in the right direction, LOL! just kidding. sort of.”

“To quote Garth from "Wayne's World"-
"We fear change!"............a rather "conservative" sentiment, I'd say!

A day of touring Washington can be exhausting.”

“That's all well and good, but what if we've changed for the worse? What if we've gotten stupider, and don't realize it? I suspect it is so...”

“With Libery for just us, not all?”

“HOLY COW BATMAN!!!!! THOMAS JEFFERSON WOULD HAVE BEEN AN ADVOCATE OF OVERTURNING THE 2ND AMENDMENT. QUICK, SOMEONE PHONE MOSES!!!!! [ Moses supposes his toes are roses. Moses supposes erroneously"]

I will cut and paste from Lyra's Jefferson quote:

But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors


I LOVE LOVE LOVE the last line about our "barbarous ancestors"

The gun freaks always run on about their "right to bear arms" as if it was somehow sacrosant, a birth right as it were. WELL IT AIN'T. It is merely the ramblings of a group of 18th century businessmen and politicians. It is outdated, ill stated and needs to be amended.

I would love to man the door gun on one of the black helicopters. a 50 mm cannon chewing the #&%!$ out of some redneck's trailer.

Well . . .I feel better now.”

“Golly whiz geee.”

“This is a sure sign that TT'ers have finally exhausted themselves with the gun debate. Nobody tried to drown Lee in an avalanche of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". But there's still time.........”

“It was just such a stupid post I think everyone just decided to ignore it.”

“Doesn't stupid usuallly attract the gun crowd?”

“Good point.”

“The Pledge is Constitutional - Well Er... They decided not to make a big political scence and just said that the guy who brought the case didn't have legal standing to bring it. But still net result is that the Pledge is constitutional.”

“An adjunct opinion was signed by Rehnquist, O'Connor, and Thomas stating their opinion that the Pledge is constitutional, so if the issue comes back up we already know how they are voting.”

“Yeah, until someone with "legal" custodial authority decides to challenge it again. The Supreme Court didn't want to set a precedent for lower courts by allowing a parent without custodial rights to bring a case to court involving the child. Some nitwit will bring it to court again.

I can see not having to be required to say it, or at least leave out the words "under God" if that disturbs you. I actually enjoyed saying the Pledge of Allegiance when I was in school.”

“Gott mit uns!”

“Big surprise there [not].

My question is, why would Scalia recuse himself in this matter but not in the matter of the energy task force run by his good buddy? Does Cheney need Scalia's the vote that badly?

I suppose we'll have the answer to that in a couple of weeks.”

“do you think the pledge is part of the reason some people hold up the flag as an icon? do other countries pledge to their flag?”

“I do not say "Under God" while I speaking the Pledge. I am not so much offended by that term. This country was founded for religious freedom; we should get back to that. "God" is in a lot of things, money is the obivous one. Do they still make you swear on the Bible before testifying in court?

To evolve as a Civilization, we need to erase the "God" referneces in everything, as there are too many people out there that this does not represent. I do not believe in "God", and I do not like the fact that a lot of the stuff we deal with daily has it in there; however, I'm not going to bust a nut on it. It's obvious that this is a God fearing, Christian dominate country and I'm in the minority.”

“The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

See also www.PledgeQandA.com




Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'”

“laqtis is going to hell!”

“I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin”

“Come on lyra, let's join laqtis and make a party of it!!”

“LAW OF THE LAND
Los Angeles name
too godly for U.S.?
Some constitutional experts think reference to 'angels' spells trouble
Posted: June 13, 2004
6:22 p.m. Eastern


The city of Los Angeles may have to change its name.

Also, cities like San Francisco, San Diego, and Santa Barbara could be looking for new monikers.

The reason?

They all have religious meaning in their names.

Los Angeles refers to the "City of Angels," while the others refer to names of saints. In fact, the official name of Los Angeles is "The Town of Our Lady the Queen of Angels of the Little Portion."

According to the Los Angeles Daily News, a strong legal argument could be made to force municipal name changes, based on the argument the names violate the so-called separation of church and state.

The issue is being raised in the wake of the decision this week by Los Angeles County to remove a small cross from its official seal, as reported by WorldNetDaily.

"That's absolutely right," Joerg Knipprath, a professor of constitutional law at the Southwestern University School of Law, told the Daily News.

"The cross is a minor symbol on the county seal whereas Los Angeles is the 'City of Angels.' San Clemente, Santa Monica, Sacramento, San Francisco, etc., are all religious references. It's far-fetched at this point. I don't think it's going to happen in the next ten years. But if somebody said ten or 20 years ago that we were going to challenge the Pledge of Allegiance or this tiny little cross on the county seal, the argument would have been that was far-fetched too."


L.A. County seal

Ironically, the most prominent image in the L.A. County seal is one of Pomona, the pagan Roman goddess of fruits and nuts, though the American Civil Liberties Union did not object to the goddess in its push to have the cross removed.

Douglas Kmiec, a constitutional law professor at Pepperdine University School of Law, told the News based on its history, the ACLU or others will likely challenge the mention of religion at graduations and the names of cities with religious identification.

"The logic of the ACLU's reasoning would suggest that Santa Monica should be renamed Monica, San Diego should be renamed Diego and on down the line," he said. "Los Angeles is a similar reference to angels. The full title of Los Angeles is a distinctly religious name."

The ACLU stresses it only becomes involved in issues when contacted by someone about a potential problem, and doesn't expect the names of metropolitan areas such as Los Angeles to become an issue.

"That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard," ACLU spokesman Tenoch Flores said. "Nobody is considering suing to change city names. If anybody were to bring such a suit, it would be laughed out of court and rightfully so. We don't go around looking for things, but we certainly don't back down in the face of criticism if it's determined that a constitutional issue is at stake."

Jay Sekulow of the Virginia-based American Center for Law and Justice told the paper last week's fight over the county seal is merely part of a growing trend.

"[The goal is to] purge all religious observances and references from American public life. Will [opponents] try to get the name of Los Angeles changed? Sure. Why not, if they can get the cross removed from the seal?"



can you say....CAN OF WORMS?”

“If you're going to hell than you need to do some kind of pagan like ritual.”

“hey laq i'm with ya.

i'd rather burn in hell for all eternity sitting next to laq and ghandi - then go to heaven with half the "good christians" i've met.”

“lagtis, say high to lyra for me when you get there.”

“This issue is a waste of steam.”

“yeah baby!”

“That's funny as hell, you guys.

A bad day in hell sure beats a good day in church!

Maybe we can load up the short yellow bus for the lot of us.

The Christain "God" is an "odd God", to say the least. Studying that religion, I can't believe you guys can't see that the whole thing is plagerized from past, polythesic religions.”

“Everyone needs to make up their own Pledge.

Make mine Lemon.”

“Another thing George Carlin said was he is a sun worshiper. He said it comes up everyday, it makes him feel warm, he can talk to it, it gives us life and food, it gives us heat, etc etc...Sounds good to me!
"one Nation under the sun"”

“"I can't believe you guys can't see that the whole thing is plagerized from past, polythesic religions."
laqtis
12:24:59 PM
06/14/04

Many Christians fully understand that theory among others for the formation of Christianity. The problem is that making conclusions based on historical or scientific etc... evidence in relation to faith misses the point.

But that's all incidental to the pledge debate...carry on.”

“Bison - The Genisis "Flood Story", is a direct rip off of the Sumerian "Epic of Gilgimesh". Also, there are writtings that should have been put in "The Book", but where found after the Church put the Bible together. The couldn't add them, because the Chruch said that the Bible was THE book. It couldn't go back, ass these writings, then say "Now THIS is the book".

All religion is Myth. Christainity is just the flavor of the month.”

“Sun God? definitly going native!”

“"ass these writings, then say "Now THIS is ......."

Ass funny ass this reads, it sould read ADD.


Kerry on!”

“Laqtis be praised!






(I'M JUST KEEEDING!)”

“Bear - Sumerian is the group of people that lived in the lower part of what is now Iraq/Kuwait, in early Mesopatamia (I know the spelling is off, sorry). The first "Jew", Abraham, was Sumerian, so it's no wonder that later religions would carry a lot of earlier myths in there writings.”

“But were they decadent and nekkid a lot?”

“Tilt - Not just yet. Wait for "Him" to rise, for he and his Father should be the only ones worshipped.

By the timeline of Church down the street, he rises about twice a week, which is better than me!

BaDump!”

“Bear - Nope, although they did dig beer!

Beer and Witchcraft are just two of a very few things that have transended time and have been constant, no matter what time, no matter what Civilization.

They were a pretty apathic group, gettting the chit kicked outta them by every Joe Conqueror in the area. There Gods were not that positive, either. The Epic story is about how the Gods want to wipe out the Humans, because they make too much noise, so they flood the Earth.

Abraham took his people, the Hebrews, out of the area and he created the first, and only at that time, monothesic religion. That move was one of the great impacts on the world today!”

“The Christain "God" is an "odd God", to say the least. Studying that religion, I can't believe you guys can't see that the whole thing is plagerized from past, polythesic religions."
laqtis
12:24:59 PM



funny thing is, most christians i've met know jack squat about their own religion.

i'll bet if i took the 10 most "church-going" people i know, and gave them a quiz asking very basic questions, they'd fail horribly.

last year for example, i had to tell 3 guys i know (who go to church every sunday) who the hell job was.

but hey, maybe it's just my personal experience.

BTW - also, without a doubt the most rascist people i've met from around the country are all very "devout" christians.”

“Well I want decadence or I wont believe!”

“anyone else ever notice that?

the connection between rascism and christianity ?”

“Charges of witchcraft were always handy if you wanted to steal an old lady's property ----”

“"Well I want decadence or I wont believe!....."


Bear - Then you should have been around in Israel (or was it Judha? I can't remember right now) when Ahab and Jezebel were running the joint. Jezie enacted all kinda of debauchery, child sacrifice and Prostitution as a religious act.

She's fondly refered as the "Arch B!tch" of the anchient world. Whe good old Ahab died, she was killed quickly.”

“i think witches are sexy.

something very erotic about a chick riding a broomstick all night.”