BUSH SUCKS

“Strat, you're either just trolling, or you have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

The term "socialism" is often used by advocates of mixed economies in which capitalism plays a substantial part, moderated by a government which regulates the economy to promote public welfare. Many social critics using socialist analysis do not clearly advocate any specific political or economic system.

That being said, fascist governments developed in response to socialism.

From Remember.com:

Fascism:

Fascism was an authoritarian political movement that developed in Italy and several other European countries after 1919 as a reaction against the profound political and social changes brought about by World War I and the spread of socialism and Communism. Its name was derived from the fasces, an ancient Roman symbol of authority consisting of a bundle of rods and an ax. Italian fascism was founded in Milan on March 23, 1919, by Benito Mussolini, a former revolutionary socialist leader. His followers, mostly war veterans, were organized along paramilitary lines and wore black shirts as uniforms. The early Fascist program was a mixture of left- and right-wing ideas that emphasized intense Nationalism, productivism, anti-socialism, elitism, and the need for a strong leader. Mussolini's oratorical skills, the post-war economic crisis, a widespread lack of confidence in the traditional political system, and a growing fear of socialism, all helped the Fascist party to grow to 300,000 registered members by 1921. In that year it elected 35 members to parliament.

Hmm... "Veterans who emphasized intense Nationalism, productivism, anti-socialism, and the need for a strong leader..." Sounds a lot more like the typical conservative stereotype to me...”

“Phaedrus, old buddy you were doing well until that last paragragh. The 'typical conservative sterotype' wants less, not more government. But I suppose that even one so erudite as yourself is not immune from your own prejudices. Maybe your friend Hillary will win the next Presidential election (shudder).

BTW, strat, yo' mama plays a fasces, LOL.”

“Yeah, that may well have come across as too harsh. My apologies, but what I was pointing at was that my original jab had been at the "socialism is not a family value" rhetoric.

As for the average conservative wanting less, not more government - it's quality, not quantity that smacks of fascism. Totalitarianism is another argument.

By the way, goose, just because you have pin-up of barbara bush on your bedroom ceiling doesn't mean that everyone who disagrees with you loves hillary.”

“Just in case you don't have the definitions:

Fascism - A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism

Totalitarianism - A form of government in which all societal resources are monopolized by the state in an effort to penetrate and control all aspects of public and private life, through the state's use of propaganda, terror, and technology.”

“Gosh, Phaedrus, thanks for the lesson in poly-sci 101. I would, however, like a further explanation of your statement that 'it's quality, not quantity that smacks of fascisim'.
And another thing. Stop dissing my pinup of Babs or I'll tell everyone about your pinup of Janet Reno in the toadskin thong, LOL!








(choke, gag, puke, gasp...)”

“Skully's husband is Goose.”

“I think you have some value statements hidden in those definitions.

"extreme right" for one.


from the online Amercican Heritage Dictionary:

fascism
SYLLABICATION: fas·cism

NOUN: 1. often Fascism a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
ETYMOLOGY: Italian fascismo, from fascio, group, from Late Latin fascium, from Latin fascis, bundle.
OTHER FORMS: fas·cistic (f-shstk) —ADJECTIVE

WORD HISTORY: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, “bundle, (political) group,” but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.


Fascists can be far left, too, as I see it.


Why did I read this thread? Argghh...

My new signature on a "you know you are a liberal when" thread elsewhere:

Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule--and both commonly succeed, and are right.

H.L. Mencken

I don't have any pin-ups. My wife won't allow it. ;-)”

“Mencken was a sensible fellow...”

“There were more similarities Between Hitler's fascist Germany and Stalin's totalitarian Russia than differences. One left, one right? Seems to me, the twain shall meet.”

“Yeah, Pathman, I pulled that definition right off the Remember.org website.
Link to the page

A good argument can be made that fascist regimes are, by definition, far right. The emphasis on nationism, business and military may be the deciding factors.

I think a similar left-wing regime would have certain changes that would make it more closely resemble some sort of revolutionary dictatorship.

Of course, by the time you sweep that far to the left you're getting into the whole animal farm thing where it's hard to tell the difference.

FG, as for the quality not quantity thing - a smaller government does not necessarily equate to more freedom for the individual. That's all I was getting at.”

“O.K., Phaedrus, I gotcha. By smaller govt., I mean one which is less intrusive in the lives of it's citizens, which would certainly equate to more freedom (and responsiblity) for the individual.”

“Interesting that the general conservative viewpoint on government does not include large national and multi-national corporations, who have the same freedoms as any individual in the US. I believe this is where I part with conservative philospophy.

Call me a socialist, but I firmly believe that, left to their own devices, corporations use their funding and power to manipulate goverment to their own agendas.

Other than that, I guess I'm a conservative.

Oh yeah, and I think the small government should not dictate abortion law or "family values".

Sign me up for the republican party!”

“"A good argument can be made that fascist regimes, are,by definition, far right. The emphasis on nationalism, business and military may be the deciding factors."
Again, Phaedrus, you have described the former Soviet Union, an inarguably totalitarian regime. Perhaps you should take poly-sci 101.
Or perhaps things are not as cut and dried as you would like them to be...;-)”

“1. Read George Orwell's Animal Farm

2. I've taken the class, FG, thanks for your interest in my education.

3. Yeah, okay. The USSR was totalitarian. That's extraneous to the argument. The lack of emphasis on business and nationalism makes a good case that it was not a fascist state - especially since those that proclaimed themselves fascists were against the very idea of communism. Was it a dictatorship? Sure! Fascist? No. Left-wing? Yes, during the revolution at least. By the time the USSR started spending heavily on military, you could make an argument that the country was under control of conservatives (ie people who had no interest in changing the current politcal climate).”

“I already called you a commie. ;-)
The Golden Rule is well established,whether by political parties in power or by wealthy corporations.
I read the book as well.
Not extraneous to the argument. You made the statement. Lack of emphasis on nationalism? Are you kidding? Lack of emphasis on business? I guess that's why everything was nationalized (damn, there's that word again) and run and bled dry by the State.
Sure the fascists were anti-communist, but they're means and ends were the same.”

“'their' means and ends...dammit!”

“Uhh, FG, nationalism means a pride in your nation, not centralization of services.

Main Entry: na·tion·al·ism
Pronunciation: 'nash-n&-"li-z&m, 'na-sh&-n&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1844
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups”

“Right. And the Russians never did that...puhleeze!
I sure am glad I have you around, now I can throw away my dictionary, LOL.”

“Let me break it down for you:

Stratdewd tried to dog me by spewing blind rhetoric "socialism is not a family value". I spewed blind rhetoric back at him to show the ridiculousness of it: "fascism is not a family value".

Pathman raised the question of whether fascism is really far-right. Even though the definition I took was from a respectable source, I went into the specifics to identify the differences between fascism and other forms of tyranny.

The argument, at the time you chimed in was not whether left was better than right - which is what you seem to have interpreted it as - but rather, whether or not there could be a left-wing fascist government.

By definition, I believe that Fascism is right-wing. Do you disagree?”

“are you boys done with your p!ssing contest yet. Neither of you are gonna convince the other that they are wrong, no one else (besides me, which doesnt say much) is even posting at this point. Save some band width”

“times 2 what birch said...”

“Back to the original point. Bush sucks.”

“Yeah. What Dunadan said. Times three.”

“Socialism is much more of a 'family value' than Fascism, unless your family is La Cosa Nostra.

Excuse me, FG, but I don't recall Stalin as being much of a businessman, LOL”

“Socialism,Capitailism ,Communism -----forget it.Try-----Corruptionism.
yes you can talk all of these other'isms',but one is the problem,and yes ,it's the later.
As with the ;left-right,Dem-Rep bull that goes on here,you ,with thought,you too can arrive at the same absolute conclusion-----beer is better than water.”

“here, here, more beer.”

“There is an ideological struggle within the ranks of conservatives. Some want less government, some want more.

Generally they want less goverenment intervention in businesses... but some want the government to decide involved in decided who can get married, who can have an abortion, listening to phone conversations, monitoring people for drug use, cancelling scholarships for people who use illegal drugs, etc. etc.

John Ashcroft, for example, is a conservative who wants the government to be very involved in people's lives.

The same thing on the left... some people on the left are very pro-freedom. Some want a nanny state.”

“O.K., let me try to wrap this up. First of all, Phaedrus, you were correct in taking stratdewd to task as you did (sorry, strat). My problem with your subsequent statements is where you attempt to differentiate between fascism and totalitaranism. I maintain that fascism is but another form of totalitarianism.
Per The Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th edition: Fascism-totalitarian philosophy that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life.
totalitarianism-a modern autocratic govt. in which the state involves itself in all facets of society, including the daily life of its citizens. A totalitarian govt. seeks to control not only all economic and political matters but the attitudes, values and beliefs of its population, erasing the disticntion between state and society. The citizen's duty to the state becomes the primary concern of the community...

My point is that there is no clear line between the two, and that left or right becomes irrelevant. These two definitions could be descriptions of Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Khomeini's Iran, Saddams' Iraq and even the U.S.(during, before and after Dubya).

Peace, brother, can I buy you a beer?”

“Points awarded to Fade and the Goose.”

“Beer indeed... Guinness if you don't have an Anchor Steam.

While I'll grant you that tyranny is tyranny, there's a difference between the initial outlays of ideology. These are the things that bring the tyrants to power - in other words, socialism is no more a stepping stone to totalitarianism than a capitalist democracy.

You're right about the fact that they are the same in the end, though - a point I also tried to make with my reference to animal farm.

seems like we agreed about most of it the whole time.”

“Anchor Porter and Steam were my favs when I lived in Californy. Guinness is my bloatwater of choice these days.
Cheers (clink)!”

“But wait... FG prefers Guinness, Fade prefers Anchor Steam. Can't you guys at least fight about that!?

(I like Anchor Steam any time of year, but I don't drink Guinness when its hot)”

“*#@$'in' rabble-rouser! I don't like hot Guinness either. ;D”

“father GEE, yer mama plays a cicada....


phaed, you'd argue with a brick wall



ped, lets steal their beer & go hikin”

“Kewl idea Strat!

FG: Twist my words will you?? Go drink recycled Guinness (My authoritarian friends say it tastes just like Budweiser).”

“LOL, ped. Probably better (though I have no intention of finding out)! BTW, if one of your friends offers you a beer, DON'T DRINK IT!”

“phaed, you'd argue with a brick wall

No I wouldn't.”

“Ya you would fade.... and I have had beer that youd send back and ask for water :}”

“Anyone a libertarian??”

“Good point FG... If I ever hear anyone say "it tastes like Bud, only better" I will know to be very very afraid.”

“lol phaed, that's like the old joke.....yer in denial, NO I'M NOT!”

“-Bush won the electoral vote 271 to 266
-States won: Bush 29, Algore 19
-Counties won: Bush 2,434, Algore 677
-Population of the counties won: Bush 143 million, Algore 127 million
-Square miles of the country won: Bush 2,427,000, Algore 580,000
[It was 579,999 for Gore but Malibu put him at the 580,000 mark]

Professor Joseph Olson of the Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, has produced another interesting statistic: The average murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore, 13.2. The average murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush, 2.1.”

“I've got a libertarian bent, maybe a Jeffersonian-Democrat.

Limited powers for the federal govt, states rights, individual liberty, that sort of stuff.”

“sounds great pathdewd, i just wish they could get more traction...”

“I'd seen those stats before , with exception of the murder rate, just happy to know they are out there. I had a flight last year sitting next to a black man, maybe 45 years old. In talking(heck of a nice guy) he told me that he and his friends, all from California, were on their way to hunt in NC. I was shocked to find out that there is such a thing as a conservative, Republican, black man in CA, let alone a group of them. Didn't think such people existed. They were disgusted that their votes and those of 2/3 of the state were overruled by a mile wide strip along the coast.”

“PS- my platform includes microbrews, with a preference for brown ales.”

“i hear ya mtnman, lol pathman”

“Its sort of like a beer militia. If there are microbrews in every American community, they can't wipe out our ability to make good beer.”