Proposed Windmills visible from Dolly So ds

“Peter Shoenfeld of the WV Highlands Conservancy is due to give a personal walk-through tour to Jerome Niessen of NedPower along Raven Ridge next Wednesday. Hopefully that will convince him that his project would be egregious.”

“Thanks for keeping us informed Geobeet.”

“Oh jesus god. Why do you fecking care if you can see windmills?! Use your energy for something worthwhile, like fighting to keep dogs out of the backcountry.

LNT = LDH.”

“LNT = LMH”

“Alright Micah, I think you're on to something here. Lets go ahead and put up the man-made fecking windmills that muck up the scenery and interupt bird migration and then ban the bloody dogs from the wild.Why don't we ban the bears and squirrels while we're at it. Damn wildlife is always disturbing me.”

“Keep on it Geobeet. I've never been to the Sods but it's on my list of places to see.

If you need petitions signed count Treebait and I in.”

“Reps from the West Virginia Highlands Conservancy and the Sierra Club toured the windmill areas with Jerome Niessen of NedPower on Wednesday. He is going to prepare impact visuals based on photos to be submitted to him by the WVHC. At present, the project would be highly visible from high points along Cabin Mountain and Raven Ridge on the west side of the Sods and from the eastern continental divide on the north side of the Sods. Bear Rocks and the Allegheny Front remain concerns.

I will be communicating with Niessen later in the day to send my concerns to him and see whether I can get any info out of him directly.

There is a study being done about possible effects on bird migration. To date, the study is either incomplete or NedPower is not forthcoming with details. That will be a major area of contention.

At this time the prospects do not look good for limiting visual effect. There remain a lot more details before we will know anything for certain. I was not able to get a read on how open Niessen is to modifying the plan, but there are ways to mitigate the impact from the eastern rim of the Sods at least if he is willing to consider artful placement and possibly cutting back about 10 percent or so on the southern part of the project.

We will know more once we get this photo mosaics from NedPower, and I think that will take another week or two.”

“If anybody cares to submit your concerns, you can email Jerome Niessen at hniessen@nedpower.com.

I suggest using respectful terms in emails. I have tried to suggest that I am in favor of alternative energy in general but have serious concerns about industrial impacts on wilderness areas. Northern Dolly Sods is not congressionally declared wilderness, but is managed by the Forest Service as wilderness.

Also, the existing coal-fired power plant at Mount Storm is visible from spots on the Dolly Sods, but is roughly 15 miles distant. The windmills would be less than 5 miles distant at their southern limit from northern Dolly Sods.”

“Anotgher project is proposed for the west side of the plateau, but north of the existing power plant. It might be visible from Cabin Mountain side of the Sods from Raven Ridge north.”

“Yeah, that is a concern.

I wouldn't like to see the plateaus covered with those things.

I am in favor of alternative energy sources but we the people must approve.”

“There are now two proposals. Read the entire thread to get all the info.

They cannot be stopped entirely, but the West Virginia Highlands Conservancy is working on trying to limit them to areas where they will not be overwelming. If we can cut the visual impact to the point where they are at least no more egregious than the power plant it will have been worthwhile.

The wild card is the impact on migrating song birds. NedPower commissioned a study, but the results are either not it or NedPower is covering them up.”

“Go to www.wvhighlands.org and click on September 2002 Highlands Voice for a newsletter largely devoted to the wind power issue, including a couple of contributions from yours truly.

Update:

A group of landowners in Jordan Run Valley (east of the Sods) has joined the WVHC and petitioned the WV Public Service Corp to deny the permit. The WVHC has until Oct.31 to decide whether to intervene. Opinion within the WVHC is divided between fighting all out and compromise to protect the viewshed.

The US Fish and Wildlife Service has called for an environmental impact statement to determine the effect on endangered species known to use the area, including the Cheat Mountain salamander and some species of bats, as well as migrating birds. The bats actually offer the best prospect of stopping the thing, but the study remains to be done.

The larger issue is the fate of Stony River Valley to the north. It is now held by a unit of CSX Corp, derivative of the old Western Maryland Railway whose no trespassing signs we so studiously ignored for many years. They are actively strip mining up there. They plan to drain the Stony River reservoir, mine it, and rebuild it.

After the coal is gone, it is a sure bet that CSX will want to unload the land. Think developers in covered wagons lined up for the land rush, waiting for a starting gun. Vacation homes would be a real possibility, if not likelihood. The windmills are clearly the tip of the iceberg. Dolly Sods would be hemmed in like Central Park.

Good news: land and mineral rights along Shavers Fork from ridge to ridge have been bought up and given to the Forest Service. The High Falls are now protected from everything but tourist trains that arrive and depart around mid-day. You can still camp there. I will miss the 2 a.m. empty coal drag returning to the mines screeching around that tight curve like banshees on steroids, but we do have to make concessions. We still have the roar of the falls, and that counts for something.

Contributions of money and time are needed for anybody who wants to tilt at windmills with me. The Highland Voice piece by Peter Schoenfeld has some details.”

“Windstorm - Cape Cod Wind Farm Proposal and Others Generate Local Opposition

Just where do we build these things?”

“NIMBY”

“Violin? That you?

Don't know. At present, there is a wind farm that is either about to start or already started in Somerset County, Pa. The site on Backbone Mountain, WV, northwest of Blackwater Falls SP is building. Turbines should be placed on the first batch soon, and probably up and running sometime next year.

The WV PSC has approved Dominion's plan for the plateau west of their Mount Storm Power Plant. I think about 11 of their towers will be visible from Canaan Valley, probably more from Cabin Mtn on the plateau. NedPower's approval is pending, but the PSC is very likely to approve and maybe as many as a dozen of its towers will be visible from Bear Rocks or the Front south of Bear Rocks.

Meanwhile, West Virginia has been identified as a likely area for wind power. Every ridge from the plateau to the WV-Va line is prime for development.

The West Virginia Highlands Conservancy and the WV Chapter of the Sierra Club are monitoring the situation. The WVHC board has called for further study of the issues: avian mortality and viewshed disruption.

There is no doubt that wind power is a clean, renewable source of energy, albeit at a somewhat higher generation price. The question of where to put it is one nobody seems ready to answer. Mountain plateaus and ridges are prime areas because that is where wind is compressed and velocity greatest as air currents move over the ridge.

But mountain ridge are where the views are.

Meanwhile, the WVHC is also fighting mountaintop mining, where the top of the mountain is bulldozed into a valley so they can get at the coal. This destructive practice has been challenged in the courts and is supposed to be on hold at the moment.

What it comes down to is a dilemma for environmentalists. I'd actually like to hear some opinions on the issue. I'm personally having a hard time coming to grips with the idea of every ridge in West Virginia being topped with windmills.

As you walk the AT in Pennsylvania, time and time again the trail comes down off the ridge, then climbs back up, steeply in both cases, to avoid antenna installations. It just seems as though wherever there is a clash between technology and the trail, the trail loses.

What do you folks think? I'm plugged into the WVHC, so perhaps we can take some of the comments to the board.”

“Yeah it’s me. Like my costume?


I like skiing but hate climbing up a mountain to find a bunch of unnatural structures on top. It is a dilemma for environmentalists and compromises will have to be made. My eighth grader had to write a paper on alternative energy sources and this is one topic I discussed with her.”

“There are a lot of subsidiary issues surrounding it. On the NedPower site, for example, there are endangered species of bats, the Cheat Mountain salamander, and some threatened bird species.

NedPower does seem interested in siting turbines in such a way that they do not interfere with habitat for threatened or endangered species, but until they are up and running nobody seems to know for sure what the effects will be. They expect a certain mortality level, and they expect it to be minimal. Don't ask me what that means or to quantify minimal.

Maybe they could put one up over Congress so all that hot air could be channeled to a good use.

Maybe they should be put on all the tall buildings in cities, where the power demand is greatest.

Maybe they should be put in land that is already despoiled.

But if they do all that, will the wind be strong enough to make it profitable?

All I do know is that they are coming to "Almost Heaven," and nobody seems able to stop it. If you want to see West Virginia without windmills, you've got about a year to do it.”

“The WVHC board is mulling over that story now. The issue is a real strange one. If you are an environmentalist, do you lose the wilderness character of your favorite places to produce alternative energy, or do you sacrifice alternative energy to save the view?

What would happen if they proposed one for the top of Mount Rushmore?

How about Halfdome?

Up and down Mount Rainier?

And if not, why should they be spared if Cape Cod and the Dolly Sods are going to be littered up?

There does not seem to be much interest in finding a middle ground. There are areas of Pennsylvania and West Virginia where I swear windmills might actually be an improvement.”

“will there be 360 degree views filled with windmills or will they be regulated to "farms"? it does seem like a catch 22. will they provide enough energy to make a real difference in the overall environment? it is a shame that some of the views will be spoiled.”

“hooping from windmill to windmill would sure "beet" walking over all these damn rocks up here.”

“Hey, thanks sirpete. Where the he11 were you when I needed you while was skipping across the rocks? j/k

Embaumer, I don't know whether or not you are familiar with the Dolly Sods, but it is a plateau sitting from 4100 to 3900 feet mean elevation on both sides, with the valley of Red Creek running down the center, roughly four miles across.

The Forest Service now owns nearly all of the Red Creek drainage up to the eastern continental divide, which runs across the Sods laterally. The east rim of the Sods is the Allegheny Front, which drops of into a valley, less than 1,000 feet in elevation, that is part of the ridge and valley geological province. Cabin Mountain forms the west rim, dropping off into Canaan Valley, roughly 3000 feet of elevation.

North of the divide is the Stony River drainage. There are two reservoirs in this valley, an upper one and a lower one. The lower one is dammed about 15 miles north of the divide, and there is a coal-fired power plant there which can be seen on clear days from various points on the Sods, but not from most of the Sods.

There are two windmill farms proposed up there. NedPower will build a line of some 200+ turbines in several rows on the Allegheny Front (east rim) starting from a point two miles north of Bear Rocks. Dominion Power, which owns the coal-fired plant, is building a cluster west of their plant at the head of Canaan Valley.

There is another firm building a line on Backbone Mountain, a high ridge running northeast to southwest on the northwest side of Blackwater Falls State Park, and roughly 15-20 miles from the other two proposed farms.

The current status of all three projects is covered in my 2:04 p.m. post.

So it would not be a 360 view. But, in the past couple of days there was a news report that West Virginia has been identified as a prime area for wind power, due to high elevations. For instance, the winds howl over the Sods, dip down into that low valley, and back up to the crest of North Fork Mountain, which has a prime hiking trail running along the crest. There are several more high ridges east of there, culminating in Shenandoah Mountain that forms the Va-WV border in the area of Reddish Knob west of Harrisonburg and Staunton, Great North Mountain east of that.

The three projects I have mentioned are the only ones with applications in to the WV PSC at present, so we figure there is not much that can be done to stop those three. One is building, a second had a permit approved, and the third is pending. Today was the final day for the WVHC to file to intervene, and I am guessing it hasn't. All we can really hope to do is to influence placement to a degree, and perhaps have some group (now looks like The Nature Conservancy and possibly Sierra Club) monitor avian mortality once it is built.

The next issue is to try to have some sort of moratorium on new development until viewshed and avian mortality issues are settled.

Now I know it sounds like a lot of NIMBY going on, but these towers stand more than 200 feet high, and the blades are 115 feet long.

The question, and we in the backpacking community need to get involved in this issue, is whether we want our Appalachian Mountains to all sprout windmill farms. The three projects I've discussed are outside the Monongahela National Forest, but there are going to be view issues. I am told that the towers now under construction on Backbone Mountain can be seen from
WV Route 32 between Canaan Heights and Davis, roughly 10-15 miles distant.

And a computer generated montage from NedPower clearly showed some turbines from a vantage point along the Allegheny Front at a distance of about 3 miles, the view adjusted for hazy conditions when the photo was taken. If they're visible from that distance in haze, they will be very visible on clear days.

They would be even more visible from Bear Rocks, and from Stack Rocks a mile north of Bear Rocks they would be just one mile away.

The WVHC board seems split over the issue, and emotions have been running high. And the simple reason is that the windmill issue cuts both ways. It is probably the biggest challenge the environmental community faces. The Sierra Club opined that it supports wind power, but ...

The but covered avian mortality, habitat for endangered or threatened species, and views. Right back to Square One!

So that's why I would very much like to see some opinions, thoughts, discussion, whatever. How do backpackers feel, because this issue is not going to go away, it is going to arise in more and more areas.

I'm not interested in debating the issue, but hearing where people stand. You can almost forget the NIMBY issue, because if you like to backpack, it will be coming to YOUR back yard sooner or later.

At one point in a flurry of emails, Jonathan Jessup, who has that great website, basically raised that same back yard issue. Another board member replied that Jonathan claims almost all of eastern West Virginia and western Virginia as his backyard, which is pretty much true. Well, that's the same backyard for a lot of us. What do we want in it?”

“i suppose i have mixed feelings on this too. what type of generating capacity is there? will they remove fossil fuel plants in lieu of these? i have seen the steam plume of the one power plant on the horizon from roaring plains. it ceratinly would change ones view of north fork mountain were it to be covered with towers. i guess i am pessimistic that any good will come of these farms. not even in the form of acid rain and such. i don't see how they will decommission a fossil fuel plant just because they now have a "green" source. i am more apt to believe that they will boast far and wide of this environmental friend while they continue to increase fossil fuel capacity in the same sector. are there contracts that would limit fossil fuel generation in this same area? are the views the price we will have to pay for them to have a nice ad campaign?”

“I had meant to cover that issue in my previous post by I guess I got lost in a welter of other issues.

They are talking about roughly 300 MW for NedPower and 250 MW for Dominion, perhaps a little less for Backbone Mountain. No, they will not replace the coal fired plant. In fact, the combined wattage will still be just a fraction of what the coal plant produces.

That Mt. Storm plant, by the way, just installed scrubbers that remove more than 90 percent of the emissions. What you see is mostly steam. And the air is much cleaner as a result. Not that I endorse coal powered plants. I have suggested that the Air Force, which I understand uses the plant as a "target" in practice bombing runs, might just accidentally drop a real bomb there (j/k).

The peak wind season would be from November to April. There is talk of shutting the windmills down during migration season, but that is not written in concrete.

There has also been a suggestion that the windmills would operate in periods of peak demand.

What this means to me is that you litter up a large expanse of real estate in order to produce a drop in the bucket of the overall energy demand. You also litter a large expanse of real estate to light up Las Vegas and Times Square, the point being that instead of increasing production maybe we should be looking at ways to curb demand.

But there are no trade-offs between wind and fossil fuel power. Nor do I have a clue how many of these things would have to be built before it would forestall bringing other kinds of power plants online to meet skyrocketing demand.

If you ever played SimCity, you will recall that the windmills didn't provide much bang for the real estate they took up. Same thing here, at least proportionately.”

“that is what i had heard of wind generators. i imagine you would have to cover every mile of open land to get anywhere with them and it is not worth it to me. my opinion is i would rather sit and breath my smog laden air without having to look upon a sea of windmill towers. my opinion may be different if i felt they were going to make a real difference in the overall scheme of things. i don't want my views to pay for a companies ad campaign.”

“I'm not terribly familiar with power generation, Geobeet, but a Google
search seems to indicate that a 250-300 megawatt coal plant would be pretty state of the art. It seems each of the projects you name would replace a large coal fired plant. That's not really a "drop in the bucket", is it?”

“Here we go. The three generators at Mt Storm produce 1,600 mw combined. They are Dominion's largest.”

“According to DOE figures all of the coal fired plants could be replaced with about 1,000 similar sized wind farms. It seems to me that would be a very good thing for the air and might well outweigh the negatives you have noted.”

“My environmental science class will be discussing this issue soon and this thread will be very helpful. Thanks for the material.

I teach my students to make choices after weighing the facts and to try ( although hard to do, to discard emotion.

I love Dolly Sods too, but a compromise can be reached. We definitely need to utilize alternative energy sources and cannot continue to put it off on someone else.... as in NIMBY (Not in my backyard)

I saw a wind farm in Wisconsin this summer and it was not that bad at all. Another coal fired plant would be far worse.”

“Just a few comments on some of the posts.

Violin, remember, the wind turbines will not be running every day, or even necessarily all day. They will be complementing other power sources, running during periods of peak demand. And there remains the question of whether they would run all year or just during peak generating months - November-April.

JO, please tell me more about the wind farm in Wisconsin. How many turbines? What kind of terrain?

Siting is the crucial issue here. The NedPower project would serve primarily the DC-Northern Virginia area, while Dominion will serve that plus areas west. The fact is, these installations would be placed in a scenic mountain area to serve urban areas. In my mind that means that because the cities cannot curb power consumption, we have to sacrifice some of our scenic countryside. I would like to see more consideration given to siting than just saying, well, it's windy here so let's plop down 200 without regard to esthetic effects.

Again, that's not to argue the point, but to draw out discussion.”

“Put them offshore, just over the horizon, or far enough out that they are not obtrusive.

Simplistic answer, I know.”

“Yeah, Jonathan Jessup wanted to put them on Baffin Island.”

“Geobeet,

I was in SW WI about 20 miles NE of Prairie Du Chien.Pretty country out there. The turbines were set up in a row..... perhaps 20 in rolling terrain.

I understand what you are saying about the urban/rural issue. Good point. However, is there enough wind consistently blowing down there? (Besides the political kind.)Hopefully all the right questions will be asked and answered.”

“Hey Geo -

I thought you might find this informative: DO WINDMILLS EAT BIRDS?”

“Yeah, that story made the rounds of the WV Highlands Conservancy wind committee several months ago. I did like the "Cuisinarts" quote.

At the rpm rate of even the "slow" turbines, it would be hard for a flying bird to calculate when a blade would spin by. I think these things will have some effect, but the ones on the Allegheny Front will be facing at a 90-degree angle from the flyway, which means the birds will encounter them from the side rather than from the front or back. That does narrow the window of exposure, but does not eliminate the threat completely.

The other argument that has been posited is that windmills will destroy less habitat than coal mining, which is true. It still does not remove the concern nor the need for careful placement of turbines, avoiding critical habitat.

There have been signs that NedPower will be at least somewhat responsive to these issues, and at this point that probably is as much as we can expect or hope for. I still don't like it, nor do others. But it's beyond challenging. There has been no policy regarding placement of projects, scenic views.

The endangered species situation does seem to be carrying some weight. The Dominion project near Mount Storm is apparently on hold because the site is West Virginia Flying Squirrel habitat (it would have to be a frigging squirrel!).

In the NedPower area there are several species of threatened or endangered bats. I am rooting for those bats, but apparently their habitat would not be in the path of the turbines. Bats, after all, have excellent echo-location.

We shall see how it turns out. It's been a thrill a minute, getting my hopes up and then having them dashed. I thought I had a common sense compromise worked out, but that was not the case at all.”

“TVA's Buffalo Mountain Wind Power Plant
Do they slant the truth about wind power being environmentally friendly?

picture - wind power

picture - dirty blades

New Signs and Dirty Blades at TVA's Buffalo Mountain Wind Power Plant”

“There seems to me to be an attitude on the part of the NedPower president over criticism. They want everything to work their way or they get their panties bunched up. I have some questions about some of the claims that have been floating about, particularly with respect to bird mortality. Yeah, they are just another group of industrialists trying to milk the system. The amount of power generated by wind turbines is just a fraction of the overall power needs, so it does not cause any coal-fired plants to shut down or make the air any cleaner than it already is. I also wonder whether wind power keeps new coal-fired plants from being built. If so, it is not a heck of a lot.

Consider a real alternative to mucking up the landscape: reducing power consumption by a quarter across the board, across the country. We're so busy turning night into day we have not noticed that we are destroying resources, environment, and our health. We need to seriously examine our power needs and how we generate it.”

“I think they are marvelous even if they are bird killers.

http://www.windmilltours.com/”

“The West Virginia Public Service Commission has approved the two northern phases of NedPower's proposed wind farm along the Allegheny Front, but not the southern phase. It's decision was based on the views from Dolly Sods.

It's probably the best I could have hoped for, but if NedPower can show that the lost of the southern part cannot be made up by resiting turbines to the northern two thirds, they may get approval to extend down into the southern portion.

There are a host of provisions for endangered species studies and monitoring of mortality, and the usual rules for projects of this sort.

If NedPower accepts the northern two phases as adequate to its needs, then the issue should be closed. The turbines will be built, and the views will have been protected.”

“so from what I can understand here, is that they only got part of what they orig. wanted ?”

“Yea it sounds like they got a part of it, but they still have a chance for the rest if they say the other sections aren’t doing the job.”

“The PSC is trying to buffer the Forest Service land from the view is what is happening, but if NewPower can demonstrate economic hardship they can have it all. The percentage of land in the southern portion is relatively small, so the number of turbines they would need to relocate northward would be in the neigbhorhood of 10 percent.

The problem is that we presented a proposal that very nearly parallels what the PSC has decreed, and NedPower rejected it because it would not be economically feasible. Instead, they proposed cutting out about a mile of turbines.

In fact, the PSC decision goes a bit beyond what I had proposed, so by rejecting that attempt at a compromise, they may have lost something.

So we await NedPower's reaction and any potential appeal. They will undoubtedly study the order and assess what it means before making a decision.

In reality, it's still in limbo.”

“A Virginia company won federal permission Wednesday to install six underwater turbines in the East River in a $3.5 million experiment to generate electricity from tides.

The company, Verdant Power Llc, based in Arlington, eventually hopes to install as many as 300 turbines on the river bottom next to Roosevelt Island in a field a mile long and 270 feet wide.

It would be the first of its kind in the nation and generate electricity for about 8,000 homes.

more...”

“Alright, more power for people on TT to run their 'puters.”

“Freaking Bush administration is trying to wreck the oil industry.”

“Sounds like a test of a new technology. I noted with satisfaction that it depends on not harming marine life.

Of course, it would be nice if it would kill zebra mussels, but the direct opposite is more likely.”

“I wonder how much power you can actually get from this.

Both the East River and Arthur Kill are what's called "Tidal Streams" -- basically a semi-inland river that connects two bodies of saltwater. East River flows between the Long Island Sound and New York Harbor, and the Arthur Kill flows between Newark Bay and Raritan Bay. I also believe that the direction these "rivers" flow in switches back and forth with the tide...”

“U.S. Senators Mount Assault on Wind Power

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story;jsessionid=aJqaxUtDXQgb?id=30845”

“The coal companies are pullin' strings and makin' those boys dance.”

“I actually saw a GE/ coal power commercial yesterday. They had a bunch of supermodel types posing and swinging picks to the tune (oh heck I can't remember the name) that has the line "I sold my soul to the company store" in it. Yikes.”