No Israel?

“Not according to BMW, it would seem: Former site of Middle East Map on BMW web site

Fortunately, snopes.com preserved the original map which identifies 'Palestine' but not Israel.”

“Must be time for another work break!”

“"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/08/iran.israel.reut/index.html

Ahmadinejad concluded his remarks by reiterating Iran's proposal that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict be resolved via a referendum of all the inhabitants of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, as well as Palestinian refugees in neighboring countries.

"Whatever they decide will be accepted by all humanity. This is a clear democratic solution which is based on international principles," he said.”

“For some reason, of all the guys in the world to hate and be wary of, this SOB had worried me right from the get-go, as soon as these dumbasses put him in power. This is one dangerous mofo, if left to his own devices. This guy needs to be watched!”

“So what is USA's opinion on this 'solution'?”

“Hey , Stove! Off the record and coming from a guy that leans left, I have to say that this guy bothers me...”

“Sounds like Ahmadinejad and the loony lefties in the USA supporting him may want a 'final solution'.”

“Well, the people I know that lean left definitely don't fit that mold. But, anyway. I don't think of guys like him in terms of party or political affiliation. This guy gives me the feeling that he is nothing but dangerous! He worries me more than Sadaam ever did...”

“Here's my lefty take on this nut who is President i Iran. Remember when the Lebanese rose up against Syria? All the Bush backers were trumpeting the fact that the Iraq invasion had let loose the forces of Democracy.
In Iran, which is right next door to Iraq, the public votes to replace a liberalizing reformer who wants better relations with the US with a hard liner who campaigned on an anti-US patform and who drew on anger over the US occupation. On this topic, the silence from the Bush bunch was deafening.”

“So? Pedx likes this guy?
That vote wasn't exacty a fair election.
The hard line nutcases had it rigged from top to bottom. Of course, pedx choses to ignore that fact.”

“No Stove, I do not like this guy. I just thought it would be fun to blame him on Bush. I thought his predecessor was much better (pro democratic reform, pro-free speech, ticked off the hard line Mullahs and inclined towards rapproachment with the US - but also pretty powerless).

I am wondering Stove - if the hard lienrs had the elections rigged from top to bottom, how come they suffered such severe defeats in the elections before we invaded Iraq.”

“How the heck can you blame it on Bush? That’s nuts. Iran chose it’s own leader, not the US.

Now the crazy bassturd is saying he doesn’t think the Holocaust ever happened and he wants a European state created and all the Jews sent there. And this is all after he said that Israel was a cancer that needed destroyed. These are hardly the rantings of a single crazy man and we should not just discount him.

Iran is months away from having a nuke. Israel is helpless in the fact that all Iran’s instillations are hard targets hidden under schools and mosques in the farthest corners of the country that are out of Israel’s flying range. It scares me to death that Israel seems to be so dependant on the rest of the world to defend it now; which it won’t. The UN didn’t even say anything when this guy called for the destruction of Israel other than to say it was “unfortunate”.

Here’s an interesting interview with one expert, John Loftus, where he details what our general plan will probably be:

http://www.israelnationalradio.com/Asx/tovias-w-2.asx”

“Every Israeli PM eventually comes around to the idea that trading land for peace is the only solution to the problem.

So, guys like Sharon and Netanyahu run on a hard-line so that they can cut a deal later with the maximum amount of leverage.

The current moderate Palestinian leadership will never make a deal because they will always be outflanked by Hamas.

So, we should all hope that Hamas starts winning elections so that someone can be found to make a deal with.”

“The Iranian (nutcase) President is shooting off his mouth again. I guess he really wants to be taken out.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaust”

“How the heck can you blame it on Bush? That’s nuts. Iran chose it’s own leader, not the US.

Nigal
10:02:22 AM
12/11/05

Well, Nigal - you did notice that I said it would be fun to blame it Bush. Really, I have two reasons:

1) It's fun to blame it on Bush because, if the Bush administration can take credit for the anti-Syrian revolt in Lebanon, they certainly should take blame for what happens right next door to Iraq. Bush backers (on TT and elsewhere) were trumpeting the effects of the US invasion on public opinion in other countries, for example in Lebanon, when the anti-Syrian movement took hold.

2) I honestly think the US invasion, and the scandals that have accompanied it - did strengthen the hand of the hard liners in Iran. It created a reactionary anti-American trend in Iran. Of course, this was only one factor in the fact that libralizing reformers who supported better relations with the West were thrown out of office. I have no idea how decisive the reaction against US actions in Iraq was in the election. I do believe, however, that there was more influence of US actions on the election in Iraq than on the anti-Syrian revolt in Lebanon.

This is actually what some strategists predicted would be the end result of the invasion: a strengthening of public support for the Islamo-fascists in Moslem countries.”

““a strengthening of public support for the Islamo-fascists in Moslem countries.”

I think it will backfire in the non Muslim countries though. Look at the France with it’s Islamic riots. Loot at Australia where they are tired of the Muslims coming into their country and still pissed off about 83 dead Aussies in Bali. Look at England where just two days after terrorists say the UK must pay they have the biggest explosion since WWII and they claim it was an “accident”.

If you get bored to tears and want to blow a couple hours here’s an interview with the executive director of New Horizons and from the LA office of Center for Inquiry, Iran expert Armen A. Saginian. (Just a side note: he's a secular humanist)

Part 1

Part 2”

“Festering Flashpoint.”

“Nigal: That might be perfect listening while I assemble the desk I ordered from Staples.

As for the backfiring - what Bib-Laden and a lot of the Islamo-fascist nuts wants is an all out Moslem vs. the "West" (which means Jews. Masons, Christians and secular humanists). Getting Western countries pissed and having anti-Islamic sentiments just plays into that.

Of course, if we have the all out battle they want, they will lose badly (unless I am dead wrong and Allah really does come to ensure victory for them) - but vry few will be better off for having had that war.”

“Islam is at the point in it’s history that the Christian church was at in the crusade ages. It needs a reform, and badly. As long as they keep up with the bombing of women and children we should keep fighting them. Until they enter into an age of enlightenment they are only going to get worse.

The Hamas Charter states:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Ami Isseroff

The PA’s Fatah constitution goes on to say in article 12 that their aim is:

Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence

Article 17 and 19 go on to state how they are to achieve these goals:

Article (17) Armed public revolution is the inevitable method to liberating Palestine. ...
Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.

They come right out and say it! What would happen if America had said, "We're going to wipe Iraq off the map and utterly destroy it.". There would have been a hue and cry from one end of the world to the other. But when an Arab nation says it about Israel everyone turns a blind eye.

Now how the hell do you make deals with people like this? Progressives around the world think that by capitulating and giving them land will somehow stop their plans and the ends they seek. It never has and it never will. The only time the Arabs have ever asked for peace is after Israeli retaliation has pushed them back to and beyond their own borders. There are 22 Arab countries in the middle east. Why not one single Jewish nation that in relative size to the middle east is the equivalent to a postage stamp on a football field? Avoiding any clique`s here; because Jewish land and blood is cheap.

The appeasement of the Arab nations will never work. It’s like when Chamberlain appeased Germany.”

“TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) the last several weeks during the Hal Lindsey 'International Intelligence Briefing' timeslot has run a dramatization called 'Against all Odds' about the reestablishment of a Jewish homeland.

In last evening's episode focused on the Six day War of 1967, a widely rumored miraculous event was renacted. The event is quite incredulous but apparently many of the Jordanian, Eqyptian and Syrian forces experienced mass hallucinations prompted by the Prophet Abraham in which they witnessed thousands of Israeli troops in places where there were only doxens of Israeli troops and in another case saw dozens of Israeli tanks where there was actually only one Israeli tank.

The original witnesses of these events, now older Arab and Israeli, were currently interviewed.

I mean, how did the limited Israeli forces defeat a combined force of 500,000 coming from all directions in only 6 days. Many have stated that the Israeli success with each bullet and bomb was phenomanal if not miraculous, like drawing a straight flush 1000 times in a row in poker.
last edited: 12/15/05 7:42:38 PM”

“I’ve never heard that before. It was an amazing victory indeed. I do believe there is a huge cosmic undertaking in what is going on in Israel. If we look back in the history of the bible when Israel fell on it’s hardest times things were always turned back around and they were blessed. Look at the book of Esther. The Jews were facing absolute wiped out and yet it got totally turned around.

The events in Israel, in my mind have never been more crazy and unreasonable. It’s like the world has been turned on it’s ear. I believe it’s going to get worse. Now, I’m not an end time nut and I don’t focus on it very much at all but there are things falling into place that can’t be ignored. We have Iran within 3 months of having a nuke that can reach Israel. They have stated their desire to wipe out Israel and the Jews. At the same time we have many Torah codes (if you believe in this type of thing) pointing towards a nuclear conflict in the year 5766.

We also have a solar eclipse on the eve of RoshhaShanah 5766, a two day eclipse on both Taanit Esther and Purim of 5766 and a lunar eclipse on the eve of Sukkot in 5766. Some of the greatest ravs and rabbis of our time are pointing towards the beginning of the final redemption starting Rosh Hashanah of this year and being complete within 70 years.

I think it’s going to be a very hard and strange year.
last edited: 12/16/05 8:45:51 AM”

“Nigal, don't forget about the conflict in the Valley of Meggido. It's a huge valley and a perfect spot for vast armies to be arrayed. It even has a McDonalds on one end of it, down by the old hill and city of Meggido. Having seen it I tried to imagine all the armies meeting for battle there, then taking a break for a little Micky D's.”

“Forget the importance of the Golan Heights! He who holds McDonalds hold’s Hashem’s favor! LOL!”

“in the year 5766??????

What year is this in our normal time line or is this 3000+ years away?
last edited: 12/16/05 8:52:48 AM”

“Besides, the Golan Heights are too cold for shorts....”

“Stove, we have already entered the year 5766. While the rest of the world goes by the BC and AD calendar the Jews still hold to their origanal calendar.”

“Nigal, please give us a little rundown on the Jewish calendar, when it started, etc.”

“Actually, late in the end time, those Golden Arches will become a portal - through which the righteous enter heaven. The un-worthy will descend directly to New Jersey "Heck"!”

“Well it all started back in the year 1. LOL!

It started on the first day of creation which was calculated by counting the generations of the people in the bible and moving backwards. The Jewish calendar is based on the rotation of the earth on it’s axis meaning a day 24 hours), the rotation of the moon around the earth a month (29 ½ days), and the rotation of the earth around the sun meaning a year (365 ¼ days). There are either 29 or 30 days in the month and either 12 or 13 months in the year depending on the 12.4 solar cycle. A year with 13 months is called a Shanah Me'uberet which is like our leap year.

Today is Kislev 15, 5766.”

“By the Hebrew calendar, it is now 5766.

5777 will start late September 2006.

I believe the calendar starts with creation - according to tradition.”

“"The un-worthy will descend directly to New Jersey "Heck"!”

And their portal is what? White Castles?”

“Thank you, rabbi, I couldn't have said it better. Kinda puts a damper on the theory that the earth is millions/billions of years old, huh?
last edited: 12/16/05 9:19:22 AM”

“Ix-nay on the evolution-ay! Let's not turn this into another age of the world thread. LOL!”

“No, lets not go there please, LOL. Just thinkin out LOUD. Let's keep this like NPR, "All Things Jewish". BTW, I celebrated the Feast of Purim one year with a friend of mine and his family in Dallas. He is the Rabbi at a Messianic Jewish Synagogue. It was an interesting meal that night, and a noisy time at the mention of the evil Haman, but the hamantash was good :)
last edited: 12/16/05 9:26:28 AM”

“With all due respect, Fatah and Hamas do not represent all Palestinians any more than certain factions in Israel that call for the expulsion or transfer of Arabs out of all of Biblical Israel represent all Israelis.

Hateful rhetoric from both sides only serves to strengthen the hard-liners that will never negotiate peace. The goal should be to strengthen the hand of reasonable people who are willing to compromise for the greater good of all.”

“Of course not all Palis are Hamas or the Pa but that is who represent them and that is who they are voting for. Comparatively all Americans may not be Bush but he’s who represents us. How can there be compromise with a government body that calls for your utter destruction? You can’t. The Palestinian people must make the changes in power before compromise can be reached. Unless of course you have a waffler like Sharon in office.”

“With all due respect (I love that phrase) - I've got lots of criticisms of Israel and am way to the left of most Israeli's on this conflict, but the moral equivalency thing is beyond absurd. I'm all for not strengthen the hard liners on either side, but equating the strength or the extent extremism on both sides is ridiculous.

Fatah and Hamas and the positions they represent have a lot more support among Palestinians than they do among Israeli's. Hateful anti-Arab propaganda is not nearly as common or as extreme in Israel and hateful anti-semitic propaganda is among Arabs.

For example, Hamas cites the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and calls for genocide in their covenant. The Protocols and the blood libel are promulgated in Arab media. There is no similar phenomena in Israel.

Jews and Israelis came out everywhere in opposition to Rabbi Meir Kahane's racist programme. There is no similar phenomenon amongst Arabs or Moslems regarding the racist kooks in their midst.”

“Agreed. The Arab moderates are probably vastly outnumbered and fear speaking out... probably for good reason.


Oh... "moral equivalency" is a phrase that is rarely useful in rational discussion. It is most often employed as a straw.
last edited: 12/16/05 11:05:07 AM”

““Oh... "moral equivalency" is a phrase that is rarely useful in rational discussion. It is most often employed as a straw.”

Very interesting statement from someone who makes his mark doing just that. Please remember this next time you start to post a story of some irresponsible gun owner on the NRA thread or when you post to your “Red State Values” thread.”

“Lovely! Binyamin Netanyahu is the winner of the Likud party primaries.

Same crap different guy.”