Made in China

“Seems like a lot of gear we hikers use is made in China(along with the majority of other comsumer products). I have gotten to the point where I'll try to find a product that is produced elsewhere. It bothers me that my recreational dollars are helping support a communist government. I relize that my small efforts have no real effects.

What good gear out there is made in the USA? Is that something anyone else considers?”

“I noticed that stuff sold at EMS is made in Vietnam and Korea. Talk about weird. They are a Canadian store, that might be why...”

“I noticed that stuff sold at EMS is made in Vietnam and Korea. Talk about weird. They are a Canadian store, that might be why...”

“Garf. I too, try my best to buy gear and clothing that is made in USA.
One of the things I like about the Sierra Trading Post catalogue is that they tell you where the gear is made, for the most part.
Good luck.”

“New Balance makes the vast majority of their stuff in the USA.”

“Sequel is made in the USA, but they're discontinuing everything except their Solar System clothes.


Back before I considered such things, I bought a North Face bag that had a tag:

"Fabrique en Chine"”

“Not only are many of the outdoor products made in China but many of them are made in the same few factories. One day they'll do a run of TNF bags and the next a run of someone elses'.

Personally, I don't care where they're made, just as long as the quality is good. Most of the money made on these outdoor products is still right here regardless of where they were originally manufactured. Also, although these products are being manufactured offshore, they still have to get the parts from us (ie. Gore, Polartec, Dupont etc.).”

“Can you say "globalization?"”

“Well, another aspect that I try to avoid is buying products that were made in shops with questionable human rights practices. It can lead to some interesting research.”

“Dare I say it? I agree with Slut on this one.”

“Red Capitalist China.

Who'd a-thunk it?”

“Make your own gear. It's a lot cheaper.”

“Patagonia is mostly US made, no?”

“Yeah. It really kills me to think that some of my hard-earned dollars might be going to help feed some desperately poor family half a world away.”

“…and the whole thought of helping to grow an economy supporting over a billion people is just crazy. What this world needs is more political instability, I say!”

“Violin, are you insane? China is all bad. Everything about it is bad. It is COMMUNIST. Hell, any real American doesn't even eat chinese FOOD!”

“So Violin - you think the currency from foreign trade in China goes to buy food for the average Chinese peasant?

I don't eat Chinese food either. Well OK, I eat some Chinese food, but only if it's made in the USA!(much fresher that way)”

“Yeah. Take-out from Shanghai is over-rated.”

“Heck, I buy things made in the Southeast if I can. The rest of you guys are on your own! LOL”

“Actually garfum I do. Did you know that due to China's economic liberalization, they have had one of the highest rates of economic growth in the world? The benifits have been widely distributed and poverty has declined markedly.

It is still not a system I would ever want to live under, but progress has been amazing, considering that they have basically built-up from scratch.”

“The slackers are whining about China's productivity?!?

The irony is killing me :-)




...have you heard about the lonesome loser...”

“I do know that China has one of the highest rates of economic growth in the world. But I certainly question where the money really goes. Building and maintaining a huge military takes a lot of cash - cash from foreign trade. I hope the benefits from foreign trade have been widely distributed and poverty has declined markedly, but if that information is coming from the Chinese government, I have my doubts.”

“Is that a quote from a Neil Young tune?”

“Little River Band”

“EMS is an American company. BTW, MEC (Mountain Equipment Co-op [www.mec.ca]) is Canadian, as is Arc'Teryx. Oddly enough, my Sierra Designs G-Tex parka is made in Canada.

BTW, my buddy Paul says that China is his favourite country except for right here which is paradise (cf. the 'What are you doing this weekend?' thread). As long as you keep away from pornography and politics it's pretty much like here, except that the food is very different and delicious.”

“Not the Chinese government but from World Bank and International Monetary Fund figures. I don't have the numbers right here but my recollection is that the number of people living below the poverty level has declined by hundreds of millions over the past two decades. It is an admittedly low $1 per day poverty level but still, major liberalization and a move toward a market economy have taken place.

A China without jobs and investment is a much greater threat to world peace. A billion plus pissed off and desperate people is not a good thing.

By the way, I know someone who owns a factory in rural China.”

“"A China without jobs and investment is a much greater threat to world peace. A billion plus pissed off and desperate people is not a good thing."

Hard to argue with that.

Despite that, given a choice, I would prefer to buy stuff made in the USA. It's the lack of choices that I don't like.”

“Iff'n they aren't making our clothes, they'd be down in that hole digging the tunnel. They'd get here that much sooner. Perhaps we can figure out where the hole will be, build a big corral around it, and put in all the killer deer.”

“Riiiight...I was followin that until the part about the killer deer.”

“My mother has some China that was made in PA.”

“Hey Violin, where's this factory? I lived in China for a year and go back periodically. I'm wondering if it's anyplace I'm familiar with.”

“I don't know. I'd have to ask.

He lives here and travels back and forth.”

“One, like any capitalist nation, much of the wealth is going to the hands of the few. Also, much of it is going to the cities rather than the rural areas. Aggregate statistics like the poverty rate do not adequately describe the disparity of wealth in the country. Haven't you all read about all the millions of unemployed workers staging protests and such, or the dire poverty in the countryside?

Two, a China "without jobs and investment" would be a GREAT thing for American security. We should have contained China's economic growth in the 90's when we had the chance. But no, Clinton and his feckless foreign policy squandered that chance. A China on the verge of economic collapse would be a China focused inward, rather than an expansionist wannabe hegemonist. Who knows - a situation like that might spell the end of the Communist party's rule.”

“I have read about the unemployment in the areas that have lost their state supported heavy industries - mostly in the northeastern provinces.

I disagree that making China poorer would be good for our security.”

“Well why do you disagree?”

“Don't blame China or any other third world nation....blame the companies that give them the contracts...blame Westerners that buy products made in those countries...blame ourselves because we won't work unless it's $7.00 or more.

It's not just outdoor gear that's being made in those third world countries...clocks, radios, shoes, clothes, tennis rackets...and the list goes on. Imagine if all your daily products were made in the U.S.A....you'll be broke before you step out of your house in the morning.”

“Because I think that a world with less poverty is a more stable and safer place. A discontented populace is more in need of foreign adventure as a distraction. A China with high levels of foreign investment is going to be less likely to shake that stability.”

“That's why we have to worry about Russia....a large population in poverty and I don't see too much foreign investments in that country. Plus the govt' is corrupt as hell too (so's China).”

“Right-o stanlee - Russia is a disaster. Industries there were privatized (given away to cronies) with no incentive to keep the assets in the country. In fact, anyone smart enough to get a business for free was smart enough to strip the assets and take them out of the country where they could earn a decent return. Their economy has shrunk tremendously since 1990. Not only is there no foreign investment, there has been dis-investment in what was an industrial giant not too long ago. That's a real danger to world peace.”

“We don't have to worry too much about Russia other than them losing track of nuclear arms/materials. Since 9/11 Russia has largely abandoned its 'partnership' with the ChiComs and has aligned itself with the West. It hopes to sell a crap-load of cheap natural gas to Western Europe as well as export oil to the U.S. (eventually). No, Russia has chosen its path, and it does not involve aggressing against the West. Nor is there any signs of a disgruntled populace bringing about chaos. In fact, their major security issue is with China.

As for China, the lousy, cowardly communists have to go, and the legitimate gov't in Taipei should be reinstated. China is dealing with a lot of popular unrest right now. The major force keeping them in check is their expanding economy, but take that away and there could be a revolution. It's the current Communist regime in China that's the threat to U.S. interests - not a billion peasants.”

“My father and my oldest son are travelling in China right now and will be back Sunday. The old man and I debate about China from time to time, he thinks trade will make things better... that with the development of an urban business class and middle class, things will get better.

He was a strong and influential advocate of ending the link between normal trade relations with China and human rights, arguing that rights would follow trade. Mostly, his views make sense - but I tend to be a harsher critic. I think its easy for China experts to become apologists for China. This clearly happened to America's most famous China scholar, John King Fairbank.

Anyway, I think the combination of trade with pressure about human rights is the best. If corporations that manufacture in China demand to be able to investigate working conditions, if other committees visit factories and some people (like Garfum) refuse to buy because of human rights problems, its all for the better.

I wonder what Pekka thinks.”

“or China Chas?”

“Mutt points to one amazing irony. There is a democratically elected government in Taiwan that we do not recognize because of our relationship with the Mainland government.

A poorer China does not necessarily make it safer. With more than 1 billion citizens and a huge land mass a China with little to lose could spell trouble. Afghanistan didn't become dangerous and threatening due to its wealth, trade with the West or natural resources.”

“"He was a strong and influential advocate of ending the link between normal trade relations with China and human rights, arguing that rights would follow trade. Mostly, his views make sense"

What a fatuous non-sequitor. China's admission to the WTO was a national disgrace. Your father sounds just opposite of 'strong and influential' - whatever that was supposed to mean.

A decade of economic expansion has yet to provide any significant change in the ChiComs abuses. All that has happened is the Communist Party is more adaptable and capable of retaining power. And now they're an aggressively expanding power, directly threatening U.S. interests. No, this policy of appeasing China has not paid off.”

“Oops, I shouldn't have dogged your father, pedXing. It's just that I can't STAND his line of reasoning.”

“my osprey pack was made in colorado, and my tcsm stove was made right here in the good ole usa. that's about all i can say i know for sure. it would be waste of time to try and buy only American products if you ask me. not that the i don't agree with the idea, i honestly dont know what to think about that but everything's been made somewhere else it seems.
it's cheaper to send it out and ship it back when the labor's so cheap.”

“lol -

Tell us how you really feel about communists, mutt.

My concern with the Russian situation is that the loss of national pride and high unemployment parallel the conditions that led to the rise of the Nazi party. The average Russian must feel betrayed by privatization that was directed, in large part, by western interests. A popular uprising could look to scapegoat the US. There are conspiracy theorists there who think that our plan was to destroy Russia, so she could never be a military rival again. Who knows?

Before Nixon went to China, it was illegal for a Chinese citizen to speak to westerners. Now with China being 2nd in the world in attracting foreign investment (only behind the US) and the largest investor in the world among developing countries, there is daily communication between our peoples. China has become increasingly integrated into the world economy and I view that as a good thing. With further outward-orientation of Chinese society, I doubt those lousy, cowardly communist leaders are long for this world.”

“1945.
His boat cruised several hundred miles up the Yantzee (sp?) to fetch-up Japs and escort a survey craft. They sank a Chinese craft, too, that opened fire on "The Fightin' Six Bits"... bad idea.

USS LCS 75 - 1
China - 0”

“Josh - thanks for the gear input.

As to Russia, I would much rather buy goods manufactured there than China (if the quality was competitive). As far as Russia never being a military rival again, they are still a formidable military power and probably always will be. It would be best if they were an ally. Russia has the resources to be a powerful economic force.”