Layering VS Sleeping bags

“It seems to me that layering would suggest a lighter sleepping bag then most people seem to use. Is this because Its uncomfortable, Inconvienent , Nudist streaks or just poor planning? Are we being duped into buying 500.00 down bags when a 30.00 kmart special and layering will do the job?

Since I want to venture into the PA winter this year I am trying to figure out just what I really need to safely do it!

(if its the nudist thing then just admit it and well do a buff in the bluff hike this winter :}
)”

“in my opinion, formed by my experiences, you will need a cold weather bag. i layer and get in a cold weather bag. when the temps drop down into the teens and lower, you need both. you pay the extra money for a "lighter" cold weather bag. trying to go without it would be dangerous and irresponsible in my opinion.”

“I have a 40 degree bag with a polar fleece line my wife made for next to nothing. When the tempertures begin to drop I just throw the liner inside the bag. When it gets REALLY cold I then add more layers of clothes. Works great for me and I'm not out a small fortune.”

“That would be liner, not line.”

“A good winter bag will be less bulky and lighter than a Kmart bag. If you really plan to get into winter backpacking it's worth it to invest in a good bag, especially if you'll be out when the temps are in the single digits or lower. When I first started winter backpacking, I was a teenager I used cheapo bags like you we're describing and while I didn't freeze to death out there I can't say sleeping in one was enjoyable. In those days I didn't carry it far and only went on overnighters and I didn't go in intense cold. If you do plan to layer for deep cold try a vapor barrier suit. That will add more warmth than anything and keep your bag and tent drier too. Not everyone can stand the feeling of a VB so experiment with your rainsuit or a garbage bag before investing in one. When it gets below zero it's worth bringing along a VB suit and socks.”

“I am suspecting that my 30 bag and a set of good thermals will do the job but most of the winter lists i have seen show a 0 bag and no thermals...and geezer and baum seem to be a case in point.

then again maybe I just want to justify a better bag :}”

“I am not very experienced when it comes to the advantages of different bags (at least not as experienced as many others here I'm sure).

I life in Florida (not the place you want to bring a down bag with you when you camp). I sometimes make it up to North Carolina to hike/camp, although not often in the winter.

In any case, I just bought a "30.00 kmart special" that I am (sort of) excited about. Its an Eddie Bauer (Insul-Therm - whatever the heck that stuff is) polyester bag that has a fleece liner. The nice part about the bag (at least I think) is that you can sleep just under the fleece liner (60 degree rating), remove the fleece liner from the bag (40 degree rating, or keep the fleece liner inside the bag (30 degree rating).

Its a rectangular bag, so I will have to take up some of the extra space when its cold. Also, I understand that I have to buy a cold weather bag if I am going to be out (and up north) during the winter), but I am still pretty excited about the new bag.

Just my $0.02

:)”

“A good winter bag 0 degree is also bigger and heavier then my 30 degree bag....”

“Last winter camped with MSilver on the Chuck Keiper trail and nightime lows were around 14. He used a campmor 20 degree down combined with a campmor 40 degree down and said he wasn't cold. I never tried two bags together, but it seems to work. If your only going to go in PA some winter weekends don't get that cold and you can get by with less sleeping bag. Some winter nights don't get below 20.”

“i have been in single digits with a 20 deg bag with a liner and layers (polypro top bottom and socks, midweight top and bottom, wool socks, fleece vest, balaclava and fleece hat) and while i didn't freeze, i was chilly by the time morning came around. maybe i could have eaten some protien type food to help. i had a warm jacket and fleece lined pants i could have put on also if the need be. the one thing i would have liked to have that my 20 deg. bag doesn't, is a draft collar. i think this would have helped tremendously. my bag is a mountain harwear. i feel if you buy a cheap kmart bag not only will it be heavier, you will sacrifice in the draft tube and draft collar arenas. these are very important in extreme cold.

a 0 deg. bag is on my wish list for christmas this year”

“If you're smart, you'll do both.”

“D-Man, I'm hauling the clothes along anyway so I may as well utilize them. I've spent many nights where it's dropped into the low teens and been comfortable. Here's what I sleep in.

40 degree bag with polar fleece liner
Long john bottoms
Capilene turtleneck
polar fleece booties
polar fleece cap

If it gets into single digits I add a long john top, socks under the booties and perhaps a polar fleece vest.”

“2 sleeping pads help too. If it's really cold I use a 3/4 Thermarest Guidelite on top of a full length closed cell foam. I like having one of each because if the guidelite started leaking at least I have the foam pad to use and my trip wouldn't be spoiled from sleeping with no ground insulation.”

“What a bunch of wimps. As long as there's molecular movement, you should get along fine in a 20 degree bag and a light polartec layer, IMHO. Unless, of course, you're sleeping in the snow in Alaska in January. I've slept in the snow in the Sierras with less (I was, admittedly, younger) and gotten by just fine. But then, Mother Goose says, I'm a human furnace.”

“I found that, for me, fleece pants (no against-the-skin wicking longjohns) and fleece coat (sometimes w/ls wicking shirt) worn in my sleeping bag is way more warmer than just wearing the wicking aginst-the-skin wear or wearing all my clothing. For some reason, when wearing just the thermals (Campilene longjohns and wicking ls shirt) I can feel the coldness of the interior lining of my sleeping bag. But if I have a layer, fleece, that separates me from that coldness, I stay much warmer.

I concur with Mr.RichB...Two (2) sleeping pads is a must to adequately insulate you from the coldness of snowcovered ground. And if it's very cold, I have around the camp SD down booties, like Mr.Geezr to wear inside the bag...and those $1 pair of just-open-and-they-get-warm toewarmers stuck inside the booties works wonders.

And don't forget a balaclava to keep your head warm...hats always slide off through the night, the former doesn't.”

“I know I wouldn't sleep as comfortable in a 20 degree bag on snow in the dead of winter compared to my -15 winter bag. One thing I've noticed when pushing my 20 degree bag to it's limits is that you need to close off the hood to a small breathing hole and any leakage of cold air becomes uncomfortable. With my winter bag I don't need to be as bundled up since it's so warm and I sleep much better. I'm just more comfortable without being confined. Sleep is important to me and that's when your body recovers after a hard day in the snow to prepare for the next day. I need to sleep well to hike well the next day. I don't think I have the internal furnace that some people have, so I need to bring more insulation than most would, but I do still go out in winter no matter how cold it gets.”

“that's what i'm talking about richb. that is why i want a warmer bag for christmas. i can get by with my 20 deg. bag, but not having to bundle up/close up so tight would be nice. especially if it was but a few oounces more (down versus synthetic). i sleep on just one pad, a mountain hardwear backcountry 72. it insulates very well and is quite comfortable. the only down side is the foot section is narrow and it is easy to have your feet slide off onto the cold tent floor while sleeping.”

“You can cut a couple of pieces of closed cell foam and contact cement some small strips of velcro to your pad and foam and attach and detach them when you need to. I did that with my 3/4 ultraliite thermarest and it worked well. I just cut a 20 inch piece of foam and used the velcro trick and 20 inch foam made a nice sitpad too.”

“I don't know how cold it get's in PA in the winter........but

I have found that wearing heavy long johns (winter weight, fleece), good socks and a balaclava can add quite a bit of warmth to a bag, BUT....it won't turn a 3 season bag into a winter bag. The problem with wearing too many clothes in your bag is you can start to compress the insulation from the inside out and can actually end up colder, depends on how tight you bag fits to begin with.

I've done a couple nights with just the clothes I was wearing and my bivy sack...the temp dropped down to around 28, and while I didn't die, I sure as hell didn't get much sleep. Don't want to do that again.

I do a lot of winter camping (down to around 15/20 below) and I am glad I spent the money on my cold weather bag. I used a Marmot Gopher for many years (-20) and finally upgraded to a Western Mountaineering Big Horn Super DL (-30) in my old age the added 10 degrees really makes a difference, best damn investment I've made in years.

Layering bags can work and like some have mentioned a few manufacturer make inserts just for this purpose...the only problem is the over all weight will always be heavier then a good bag rated just for winter.

What ever you decide to do, welcome to the cold weather club!...it's my favorite time of year, no bugs, no crowds, no dust....and no wimps”

“I think Mr.Nigal said it best (and this goes with any sleeping bag)...
"The best 30F sleeping bag is a 15F sleeping bag."”

“I'm using a 25 deg bag (REI Solo Lite) that weighs 2 lbs. I wear Capilene expedition weight long undies, and zip the bag open if it gets too warm. I haven't been cold in it yet. Last weekend I got too warm, but the temps are still dropping.”

“The temp ratings on my bags are most likely not what the used to be but when sleeping in the cold weather bag, I normally will climb in with dry midweight top and dry boxer's and woolies to boot. Should I need more, I will have extra layers if needed within the bag as well. You may run out of layers if you don't take a proper bag.

Query?
Do you cool down your outside body/skin temperture before entering your bag? To see if that might help in reducing any of the clammy feeling associated with vapors.”

“I wash up when I get to camp, whether its with wet wipes or Camp Suds. I don't like to sleep without cleaning up.”

“Winter nights are long so you're likely to spend a lot of time in your sleeping bag. There's nothing like crawling into a nice puffy down bag when it's below zero out and the wind and snow is roaring against the tent. I know when I crawl in I won't be cold in my winter bag. It has so much loft(9 inches) it looks like someone is already in it. The worst part is getting out first thing in the early morning since it's usually the coldest part of the night. That will wake anyone up in a hurry.”

“Wear a knit hat to bed. I think sleeping bags are most effective with a single layer. If you are going to be in very cold dry areas you might consider vapor barier clothing. I never have used a vaper barier, but some peopld swear by them

I prefer down to synthetics.”

“I bought my 20-degree North Face down bag (about 2.5 lbs.) on a closeout sale for about 120 bucks (Can't imagine spending 500 bucks on a sleeping bag!). It'll probably last forever, and, so far, I've never even gotten inside the dang thing 'cuz it's so toasty. I winter camped for the first time in Feb, temps got to about 25, I wore my polypro (or whatever) long underwear, ski socks, my synthetic ski pants, my polartec jacket, and I was still so warm I didn't get inside. The TT trip in October will be another test, though, with recent overnight temps in the mid-teens. I'm not worried. Almost forgot the key to warmness: a good hat!”

“Lots of good info in this crowd.....

SnowNymph, is that the same bag you used at the New Years get together?? You and Amy are starting to make me feel like a wimp, Amy uses an OLD 15 degree bag, even used it on Ama Dablam...guess I'm just can't keep up with the young girls anymore....must have more loft!

Oh, another key to staying warm...eat! Have some food near by and if you wake up cold eat something... nuts and raisns are good.”

“I can picture it now...
ski mask
long johns
gaiters
Ti ax

wanna meet? hehehe

thanks for the input, very helpful”

“Bag ratings are only the Mfg's opinion, better companies are more conservative, the loft is where it counts, not material. high loft= warm, small loft =cool. Materials used are really just snob appeal and weight related, 4"loft is 4"loft, doesn't matter if it's down or steel wool!though I wouldn't want to carry that one or try to sleep in it. Down is lighter, but compresses and stays compressed too easy, that's why restless sleepers get colder than those of us who don't roll around. I like my synthetic bag better,it returns to loft after being compressed more than down will and use a 1/2 " full length pad under it, don't bother with the 3/8', it's not enough.I think most folks are getting it with the hat and sock/bootie thing, but it's also best to wear dry clothes to bed too, after all, it doesn't make sense to try and keep sweaty clothes warm through the night while your metabolism is low.”

“Wrong, Wrong, and wrong.

Thanks for your input.”

“I find it's helpful to give my sleep system a test in the backyard (or car camping, etc.) when the temps get down low to make sure it works before I take it out on the trail.

A concern I have about relying on layering for my sleep system is that there is a chance that some/all of my layers will be wet and might actually detract from the overall temp rating. This is a worst case scenario (fell in a river, really nasty ice storm, etc) but in winter backpacking the defense of the worst case is keeping warm and keeping dry.

Then again I am from Florida and have never done any serious winter/snow camping, but I plan to and have been testing and planning long and hard - so take my ramblings for what they're worth.

Erehwon - welcome to a fellow Floridian!”

“Hares in the sleepy bag probide perty good warm and coseys!”

“The question I would ask is the weight.....price is important to everyone. I use Jack Wolfskin goose and if I get cold just put on the cloths you bring. But I haven't got cold in that bag. The price is not bad $159.00 that is a 22 degree bag. Weight 3lbs.
Just my thoughts.
Barbara”

“i'd like to see your kmart bag pack down to the same size and weight of my Western Mountaineering 15 bag...my 30 degree iroquios is not much more than a pound and is a tad bigger than a softball...the 15 deg one isn't much bigger.

Instead of Vapor barrier socks and gloves...i read to just put some wal-mart bags over your polypro liners and under your regular socks...at that point..it's too cold for this southern boy”

“i'm with skully...both!! i think i need to get some of those alleged "down booties" you people keep talking about. are those sock-esque things that you can wear to sleep in?”

“Richb knows whereof he speaketh. See also the cold weather apparel thread. I have double bagged and it works well, but is bulky. I now have an overkill -30°F bag whose hood I have never even used. A balaclava and vapour barrier are keys to successful winter camping in my opinion. Also, because one spends so much time in bed, I prefer a bivy sack to a tent. With my headlamp on I just stick out my arms and cook dinner and breakfast even in the dark. The most important thing is to get out and do it. I was very nervous my first time, as well as being a long way from trailhead (below the summit of Marcy) - which wasn't really a good idea. It went down to -20°F down in Lake Placid and up where we were our wine froze in my aluminium flask. It took about an hour in my sleeping bag to melt down to slush and my buddy would stick out his hand and I'd shake some wine slush into it and that's how we ate our wine. Good luck.”

“lycra..err lyra..they are huge puffy bunny slipper looking boots with a non-slip rubber bottom, and down insulated tops”

“"and that's how we ate our wine," LMAO, gremlin!! -20 sounds seriously scary, though...

OPIE, thanks, and Eat It.”

“mtnsteve, I used my 0 deg SD Elle down bag for that trip. Its 3.2 lbs.

My REI solo-lite 25 deg down bag has a dryloft-type coating, so if there's condensation, the bag stays dry. The SD Elle does not, so I don't like to take it with me (besides the extra weight). I have a Marmot Dryloft Pinnacle 15 deg bag (2.8 lb), but something happened to the loft (cleaners?), and its bare in a few spots. Gotta get it fixed.”

“There is winter camping and there is winter camping. Many times you can get by with a 3-season bag and long johns in PA because it just doesn’t get that cold very often.

I used to have a Hollofill 0-degree bag. It weighed a good 8 pounds and compressed down to the size of small car. My WM Puma Super MF is rated to –10, weighs half as much and fits into the sleeping bag section of my pack. It did cost several times more but I’ll probably never need to replace it.

The coldest night I used it, it got down to –12 inside the tent and I woke up chilly in my long johns, wool socks and a balaclava. I added a fleece layer and slept fine. Any colder and I’d need an even warmer bag. I also use a closed cell pad under my ultralight self-inflator.

So no, its not layering vs a warmer bag – for bitter cold, both are needed.”

“Big Coop - Thanks for the welcome.”

“While recent winters in PA have been mild They wont stay that way and I have seen -30 temps. Mountain weather is often unpredictable.

a good down bag can easily get to the 500 range and just to make matters worse I have to buy two of everything. If mrs. dirty gets cold things will turn ugly fast! Im not so much bothered by the price but I dont want to make a misteak at those prices.

below -20 or so there are no snyth bags that ive seen. perhaps if I let mrs dirty freeze over night in our good snyth bag the 500 down bag might go over as a xmas present... (sigh... marital politics....)

I will get to the wine eating and other joys of winter packing once I am sure I will wake up in the morning!”

“Do what the rest of did DOM.

"New bag? What, that old thing? That's the one I've always had."”

“gremlin mentions using a bivy and violin notes the temp inside his tent -- both bringing up the other variable, which is what type of shelter is combined with the sleeping bag and pad.

When temps plunged below freezing back in March during the Michigan Mountaineer Waterloo Rec. Area trek, I was using my Gossamer 1-person bivy tent. Though I battened down the fly, it was still over a mesh tent body, which did little to retain heat at night. My 15-degree SD flex bag was challenged by every bit of breeze that slipped through. I also could have used more than my 3/4 Thermorest Ultralite under me, but, hey, I was trying to go as light as possible, and temps went lower than expected. Hike and learn. Ultralite isn't always the ideal, and winter weather is a case in point. But I did have a balaclava to put on, as well as other layers.

As Swamp Yankee noted, active sleepers such as I am (hence the purchase of the "flex" model) may sleep colder, though I don't think it's because they compress the fill but because they cause the air to flow in and out of the sleeping bag with each change in position, as with a bellows. That's why a draft collar is a big plus on the cold weather bags. I could really feel the cold air get sucked into my bag whenever I rolled around back in March.”

“Hear hear on the draft collar. My 20F doesn't have one, my 0F does. Big diff in how warm I was between the two.”

“Although my Candle Lantern just sits in my gear drawer, I have used it on frigid winter nights and left it lit (throughout the night) hanging in my tent, and I swear it warmed and kept the overall tent temp to just below freezing.”

“Coleman makes some good cheap zero & twenty degree mummy bags with the draft collar. Got me one of those, but I now use an Alps mummy.

Instead of a lot of layers I sleep in long-johns and a $35 nylon/insulated ski-bib/overalls. If it gets a little hot I just undo the zipper all the way down and air out for a while. The real benefit is in the morning, bein' able to zip it up and hold the heat in before you get out of the bag.”

“I didnt mention shelters because that makes the matter even more complex. there are tents, shelters and then theres also the hammock problems...

that ol thing usually becomes but you gave me that ol thing....”

“So are the clothes you are layering with the ones you were wearing while hiking or are they extras that you packed in “just in case” or specifically to sleep in? If you packed them, how does that save any weight over leaving them at home and using a warmer bag? If you hiked in the clothes, what are you going to do if they are wet from precipitation, condensation or sweat? Wet insulation of any type losses a lot of its insulation value.

I take clothes that will keep me warm while active in the expected weather conditions. I take a bag that will keep me warm in the expected low temperatures with no activity and no extra clothing. If the clothes get wet I have the bag. A good bag is also a survival tool. I also carry one of those mylar reflective emergency blankets (never used it). Where I go 20 degrees nights in July are not unheard of.

Bag temp ratings by the makers are not much use most of the time. I have a good 35 to 40 degree down bag that is rated as 20 by a big name prestigious company. And a true 0 degree bag by a small company.

And I admit it, buff is best for me. But I have yet to hike that way, I am referring to sleeping. So no bluff in the buff hike for me, especially in winter.”

“Yeah? But what if you have to get outta the bag for a midnight bathroom run? Or to chase off a bear? I always wear a pair of long undies to sleep in with the idea I may have to exit my toasty bag unexpectedly.”