Layering VS Sleeping bags

“But night time bladder relief is so fast and easy without any pants (I am of the female persuasion and have no hose). The time saved negates the exposure to a large degree. I often slip on a top before exiting the legs from the bag.”

“Like Pekka said a good shelter does matter as far as warmth is concerned. When the wind starts a mesh roof tent is too cool and spindrift will blow right through the mesh. That was my experience when using that type of tent. I had to keep brushing the snow out. I used my tarp too in late last fall and when the wind started I was wishing I had my tent or my winter bag. With a plain nylon shell the wind was blowing the heat away. I guess a bag cover would fix that problem.”

“Sierra Designs: Catheter-Dehydration/Heating System ($22.95) - Keeps you dry & those hot water bottles full.”

“http://www.thenorthface.com/code/products/product_pages/12116_standard.html

heres an interesting one.... lighter then its down cousin and comes in a long, price not to unreasonable

catheter?... i dont think so....”

“http://www.thenorthface.com/code/products/product_pages/12101_standard.html

down version”

“Hey DOM -

The Dark Star got mixed reviews here

and generally good ones here.

I'd still say to go for a WM or FF down bag if you can swing it. It will last a lot longer and perform better.”

“If those are the mixed reviews then Its a good canidate....
If im gonna go to that price range I might as well go with the warmlight bag

It is interesting that the synth bag is lighter then down... could it be the end of downs dominance?

a synth bag will last my lifetime as I wont use it more then a dozen times a year. even if I managed to wear it out the newer generation bags will most likely show a n improvement.”

“Just read possibly the best testimony ever to the quality of Western Mountaineering, from the pages of a journal by a woman who's hiking the PCT right now.

August 26, 2002 Entry from Yogi's PCT journal”

“Many years ago I made a fleece liner for my 20 deg down bag and used that when winter camping. Not bad, & used it for years wo complaint, but just a couple years ago spent the $$ on a 0 deg Marmot bag. As mentioned above, the extra comfort associated with being able to move around a little in the 0 deg bag made for a much more restful nite. The early system kept me warm, but my 0 deg bag keeps me warm, and comfortable, as I can move around a little and don't feel so restricted.

I've attended a couple seminars / outdoor practical training sessions on winter camping, and have assisted teaching some for the last 4-5 years. Choice of ground insulation makes a HUGE diff. I personally use a thermarest AND my old ridge rest for double insulation.

Also, again as mentioned above, any outer covering you use over your bag can also makes a diff. I get a very significant comfort-boost if I also bring along my bivy. When it's going to be very cold out, I use my bivy (even inside my tent) for the additional protection from the low temps.

Finally, be aware of one possible "snag" when using the "bag-in-a-bag" system of placing one thinner bag inside another. Sounds good in theory, but in practice sometimes the two bags' insulation becomes so compressed that too much insulating capability is lost, and you end up not being as warm as you'd planned. The bag-in-a-bag system can work well, just be aware of how much you're compressing the insulation whenever you do use it.”

“DOM -

I was afraid you might miss the negative reviews at trailspace because of the weird way that site is (dis)organized.

They were:

The North Face Dark Star
Reviewed 2001-11-25 by bob kizer
Design: mummy
Fill: polar gaurd
Temperature Rating: -40 f
Weight: 4.7lb
Price Paid: 285.
Comments: My wife & I bought two of these pieces of crap,& almost froze to death @ -5f

and

The North Face Dark Star
Reviewed 2001-11-08 by Paul A. King
Design: mummy
Fill: polargard (2000 model year)
Temperature Rating: -40 (F)
Weight: about 5 lbs
Price Paid: about $300.
Comments: I bought this to replace another North face synthetic bag that went flat. Nothing against The North face, they are a good company, but I find all synthetic bags to be lacking in durability and warmth. I used the -40 (F) Darkstar in temperatures that were around plus 15 (F). I would have died if the temp was -10 (F) in this bag. It is just not that warm. I don't know how they test these bags, but the ratings are all wrong.

I opted to go for a down bag. TNF was gracious about it and allowed me to upgrade for a modest cost to a -40 (F) down bag from their line.

I have a 25 year old down bag from REI that still lofts up like it was brand new. I never got more than 3 to 5 uses from a synthetic bag before it would loose about half the loft and insulation rating.

I don't like to be cold at night after a long day hiking in the snow and ice. If it is really cold and dry, I like the down option better. (my opinion)


Could be shills for WM but I thought you should see them.”

“violin, where do they stash those not so good reviews at trailspace?”

“Aside from not seeing this review there...
I just dont find his complaint believable...He just comes off as someone with an ax to grind.”

“Wiggy’s guarantee the loft, and everything else, in their bags for life.”

“http://www.trailspace.com/gear/review/00003953

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/review/00003917”

“Why no violin... I believe everything you say and follow every link you post :P”

“My first real winter bag was a Polarguard TNF Bigfoot -5. I sold it after one winter of use. The reason was I was getting cold in it at nowhere near the rating and it started to lose its loft, mostly on the bottom where your body weight is concentrated around the hips. Now this was original Polarguard so things may be better with the new varieties, but after that experience, for winter bags, I like down. When I practically gave that bag away just to get rid of it, I bought a TNF Ibex -15 down, the bag is superb and I've never been cold in it even at -13. Down's instant warmth, better stuffed size and weight and lifetime durability is why I won't go back to a winter synthetic bag. This bag has as much loft as the day I bought it so in that respect while down costs more, it last so long that you get your money's worth out of it. I never got it wet in winter conditions to the point it was a problem while using it in a good tent. So maybe the synthetics have improved, but I just like the qualities that down has to offer in a winter bag.”

“Well thanks rich, How much did you get from the down lobby? :}

Are you all trying to get me killed? Mrs dirty is gonna flip if she knew I was even looking at 650.00 down bags....I just simply am not that good a boy ever :}

NO.... ok just a peek.”

“This winter I will be layering two sleeping bags. I will someday spend the big bucks on Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends (a friend is trying to drag me into the IRS to work). I sleep cold and I think that a -20 bag will be warm enough for me for a 10 degree winter night.”

“With regards to the notion of cramping the insulation value of double bagging, that is why you get an OVERbag (usually these are rated to 40 degrees or so) that is meant to accomodate a sleeping bag. I imagine that, plus a silk/fleece liner with carry a 15-20 degree bag easily down below zero. However, it would most likely weigh more than purchasing a -5 degree bag. Again, I'm a proponent of flexibility.”

“OK, Here's another story from the down lobby. In the last 2 years, I replaced almost every piece of backpacking gear since most of what I had was obtained in the early 80's. I felt like upgrading even though many things I had were still useable. The one area I didn't make any changes was in sleeping bags. The other down bag I have is an 1991 LL Bean down 20 degree mummy and both bags use 550 down because in those days higher grades weren't as widely available as they are now. Both these bags work so well and haven't lost any loft I just don't see the need to replace them. My point is that I don't think you need to spend a fortune to get a good down bag that will be warm and last a long time. To be sure FF and WM bags are great, but the're other bags out there too that will far outperform a synthetic in lifespan, blow it away in weight and stuffed size for not too much more money. For now I'm keeping and using my 2 down bags and my guess is that they will outlast me.”

“Just for information, the Campmor bags use 550 down.”

“DOM -

My WM Puma SMF lists for $495 but I found it for $320, brandy new. I got really lucky but some outfitters do regularly discount them. Keep your eyes open. The Feathered Friends website has a specials page. If you check it often you might find a deal on the bag you want. There are always end of season deals on the big, mass produced brands but that would mean delayed gratification so that’s out the window.

http://www.northernmountain.com/pgi-ProductSpec?504104,7" target="_blank">Northern Mountain Supply has a deal on a –5 degree dryloft MH Ramses right now that would probably be warm enough for PA.


If you’re sold on the Darkstar, http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1628198&prmenbr=226" target="_blank">Campmor has a free pad deal with it now.”

“I was looking over the warmlite but I ran into several mentions of product failures and bad service so I whacked it off the list...

currently looking at the big agnes bags, I hear they work very well with a hammock...

you really think -5 would be warm enough for pa in a hammock? seems kinda light to me.”

“I'm the wrong person to ask about that. The only use I have for a hammock is summertime napping.

For more conventional camping, it should do fine. MH also makes both a synthetic and down upgrade bag liner that zips inside and adds 20-25 degrees to the rating.”

“Strange that no one has mentioned those 18 hour foot warmers!

Take all of the above suggestions and toss in one "foot warmer". In most conditions I'd say one will extend my 30F (1# 7 oz)down bag down to 20F. A lot lighter than carrying a heavier bag on weekenders.”

“So are the clothes you are layering with the ones you were wearing while hiking or are they extras that you packed in “just in case” or specifically to sleep in? If you packed them, how does that save any weight over leaving them at home and using a warmer bag? If you hiked in the clothes, what are you going to do if they are wet from precipitation, condensation or sweat? Wet insulation of any type losses a lot of its insulation value.”

“I carry a set of capilene to change into as the evening cools after eating and then to sleep in.”

“hard to say mtn gal, Thats part of the puzzle... since I will likly be carring a set of thermals for camp.

I know that the more I carry in clothes reduces the bag rating but the trick is to find a combination that minimises the weight without compromising saftey or comfort...

oh and the chicken came first....”

“Well it looks like the compromise for me will be to carry in a set of medium capilene thermals and go with the agnes pomit hoit bag....(and spit)

I looked at the FF great auk bag but the 20 rating seems too light too me

AMC's website reccomends a -10 bag for winter in this area

I looked at the thermals at wally world but they are 40% cotton so I think REI has another box to send me :)”

“I agree. I don't think you'd get away with a 20 degree bag too many winter nights in PA.”

“well as an experiment I took a trip up to the aft without a bag and learned a few things. I had taken a +15 bag out and gotten chill on a 50 degree night last trip due to no pad. also I read on sgt rocks site and others about useing an ensolite pad and blanket so... I gave it a test run. took a egg carton type foam pad and a wool poncho along with a sweater and some wind pants with thermals as backup.... got to camp and threw on the wind pants and sweater to cook dinner.. not bad for a while but as the temp sank below forty I got a bit chilled so I tossed on the thermals as well. the pad and poncho/blanket worked well but the combination was a bit thin once the temp dropped below freezing. I did like the ease of use the poncho had over a sleeping bag and the pad while a touch too thin did extremely well inspite of the 28 degree low. pack weight ended up at 40 lbs but I had to pack in two days of water since the area was dry. Looks like the nantucket blankie with mods will soon become a front runner.

oh and never ever will i pack in a dinner i havent tried at home before... lipton asian noodles..YUCK!”

“When I was on Isle Royale back in May, I layered sleeping bags! I had a 15+ slumberjack inside a 0+ slumberjack and prewarmed them with hot water bottles. I had that baby sinched up around my face. Brrrrrr! I was sleeping in a shelter. I much prefer tents in colder weather.

I need a tent warmer. Yep, that's what I need. *eg*”

“Tent warmers will cause you to sweat and the end result is that you are colder.”

“noooo comment.”

“I agree with bacpac. In my experience tent warmers and foot warmers just makje you sweat, as do hot water Nalgenes. In Alaska it might be different, however.

I use a -30°F Slumberjack for the last few years and find it a little too warm for the 'Dacks. I sleep in fleece and it allows me to open the bag in my bivy sack. There's a saying that if you sleep cold you didn't bring enough clothes and if you're hot you brought too many (gotta get a freeze-dried, backpacking crystal ball).

For what it's worth, and this is why I'm posting, I saw Ed Viesturs in Montreal on 2 October and he showed an interesting slide. He says that since they are already wearing down suits, he thinks a sleeping bag is unnecessary bulk and weight. They roll out the mattresses and use a down comforter. He also says you need to know your buddy really well, however.”

“I thought that Sunshine was referring to a companion, not a gadget. Guess my mind just isn't on gear today.”

“LyndyS, That's exactly what I was referring to, but I think bacpac was also. ;o)

The trick bacpac, is to "sleep" with the tent warmer. hehehe!”

“Ohhhh.... I guess that was pretty clever wording by bacpac.”

“It’s obvious that Backpacker magazine has been stealing from our threads again. Did anyone notice the reviews on two bag systems and the mountaineers sleeping in lightweight bags with all their clothes on? They really should be paying us royalties.”

“So has anyone ever tried to customize a down blanket to fit inside a a bivy? I got this older REI Cyclopes I thought about trying to do that too. I'm curious as to what temp rating might be.

I layer my upper more than my lower half. I have a hard time getting completely into the mummy bag and cinching everything up. I've gotten cold enough to where I've had to retreat into the bag but most of the time I like having alittle more arm movement that is not present when all cinched up. I normally will use the remain clothes (fleece items, GT jacket and liner) what every there maybe as blankets, scarfs, extra head and neck wraps on top of the balaclava and hat to cover my upper half when the temps call for it..

SInce I also don't have alot of extra meat around my knees I normally either wear a thin layer on the lower half or place some clothes down in there so there is some padding between the knees. Cause on the bed at home the comforter is never tuck in and other than using a pillow; I like to be able to wrap and tuck the comforter wherever so my knees aren't always knocking into one another. You know, take a little tension off the spine. The same goes for when sleeping in a bag. But bags normally don't have enough to do that with so I have to make do with what I brought. Its all about comfort.”

“With those "sunspots" it would seem that you have Already discovered an effective, and somewhat agreeable TENT WARMER.”

“When I bring the sunspots, they make good tent warmers. But I was very naive when I chose my tent warmer before they were born. I've since wised up and I'm very picky about who gets to be my next tent warmer. *sigh* I think I'm in for a VERY long wait. So, in the meantime, I need to haul the big load of sleeping bags and fleece clothing/head gear.”

“My wife hate's mummy bags because they are too constricting for her. She found a Sierra Designs bag at REI that is not too bulky but gives her more room than most mummy bags. Unfortunately I don't remember the model.”

“mummies maybe more efficient but I just gotta have room to move my big feet.”

“I got an expensive bag.

The stuff was worth it too.”