The Cost of Bush's Folly

“So tell me this? I'm trying to be rational...

WHEN, yes WHEN, do we take action on Saddam? It's been 16 times, when it turns to 17, after his little show here(saying he'll let inspectors in) ends, do we take action? He hates the US, why should we not be taking action to make sure our people are not threatened? Why is he so special and no rules apply to him, why do you assume he's telling the truth(HE HATES YOU) but you give no trust what so ever to your own people?

I too would like to believe there is no threat, but can we assume?”

“I try not to make an assumption either way. You see, I stopped trusting politicians a long time ago... nothing personal against Bush; he's just another in a long line. I still say his timing is fishy, tho'.

If the previous U.N. resolutions give members of the Desert Storm coalition legal grounds to go in, why aren't we there already? Well, the other members of the coalition aren't on board and neither is the electorate. From what I've seen, the majority of voting-age Americans support action With some international consensus. When (or 'if') the inspections fall through again, we will have more of that consensus.

Why didn't we bump him off in '91? There was lots of talk about the dangers inherant in destabilizing the region. I suppose we were more concerned with Iran at the time. Are things that different now? Will Iraq be partitioned along the lines of the no-fly zones?

I think we should avoid a war if it is at all possible. I think it will be one hell of a lot more messy than the PR guys are saying. Why not give inspections one more chance if we can avoid something like that? I guess you think that it's inevitable.

I keep hearing that Saddam could've made a device some time ago if he only had the fissionable material... but no one seems to think he ever got ahold of any.
He could've parcelled out bioweapons material years ago to various groups, but no one is saying that he ever did.

I do believe that if we go in with the stated goal of 'regime change' that he will fire any of those FUN munitions he has left over, as any cornered rat would.

BTW, how old is that sucker? Shouldn't he drop dead from old age like anyone else? <G>”

“i think your just worried that it will help republicans win elections. that whole line that it shouldn't be politicized is horse pucky. all war is political. the beloved coalition you keep hoping for fell apart under bill clinton's watch. and to say it will be messy & will cost all these lives...that's what all the peacenics said the first time around. it lasted like 15 minutes. and another thing, how come you are willing to give him another chance after 16 trys? if a car mechanic screwed up your beamer 16 times ,would you give him another chance?”

“Don't forget this one point. The USA helped Iraq obtain chemical and biological weapons back in the 80's. It's just a fact. Sorry that you conservatives don't like facts.”

“dan, bfd! if i gave you a gun, and you wnet and robbed a bank and killed someone, you'de be the bad guy, not me.


sorry you peacenics don't like logic...”

“As far as predictions go, you better keep your day job...


Remember this sound:

"Sooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

LOL


There was an interesting panel on BookTV just now (C-SPAN2) and one the line of commentary was the lack of dicussion by White house officials re: OUTCOMES of 'regime change'.

For example, one outcome of WWI was the Bolshevik Revolution and the formation of the Soviet Union. One outcome of WWII was the Cold War. That sort of thing.

With this in mind, I'm sure we can agree that the thorough study of possible outcomes is worthwhile... not something we should 'figure out when we get there'.

Wars are unpredictable by definition.

Will the Turks move into the northern Iraqi oilfields? For some reason the Kurds have a certain mistrust of US presidents named 'Bush'. Will the Shiites take retribution on the Sunnis? (recall Yugoslavia) If Tel Aviv returns fire on Baghdad, will this destabilize Musharraf or possibly Mubarak? Some of these folks are already walking a tightrope on our behalf.

It's already a mess and it's about to get worse.”

“I'm takin' reservations for my shuttle bus to Canada.

Only able-bodied young men need apply.”

“No doubt Tom is headed to Quebec. He will be right at home with the French Canadians.”

“ZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZzzZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz”

“The Gaspe' Peninsula is lovely!

We can get lost in the Chic Chocs.”

“symbolism over substance











where da he!!'s phaedrus? at least he puts up a fight....”

“Ha, I wouldn't want to hurt ya, boy.”

“leave it to you to think of voilence. . . . . .....


besides i wouldn't be able to quit laughing at your blue longjohns....”

“Aaaahhhhh, ya like them longjohns, huh?

Wuddaya got pink longjohns?

I'm still workin' on those naked pictures of Walter Brennan for ya.”

“lmfao! uhhmm....no thanks!”

“Things are not that different now, they're still just as $hitty! I agree we should have taken him back in 91 but we didn't...

That doesn't change the fact they're a threat and Bush has been talking about Iraq this whole year(not just election time). If we go in and everything is fine, he let's the UN inspectors search ALL then I have no problem...

But if he doesn't do you agree we should take some sort of action? Saddam not letting us inspect all means he's hiding something to me... what does it mean to you?

I still can't believe 16 times means nothing to people...”

“See the thing is Strat, you've never seen combat but are foaming at the mouth to send the lambs to the slaughter. Feck any other option, right? 98% of combatants shhit and piss themselves the first time they're in a real firefight. Why? Because they're scared they're gonna get their guts blown out all over the battlefield and lay there wondering, "What the hell did I do this for anyway?" So when you sign on the dotted line to put your ass in a trench over in a desert, 10,000 miles from home, then maybe I'll respect your opinion.”

“Yes, Bush and his advance men (Cheney, Richard Perl et al) have been floating an Iraqi invasion since the last election, but the big push has been much more recent. Recall the Andrew Card quote. I've heard that that particular statement got LOTS more airplay overseas than it did here. I'll paste it in again so you don't have to hunt it down:

"You do not market a product in August; you wait until after Labor Day..."

(and he was Not talking about video games)


Where do you get the 16 number?
Yes, Saddam and his guys played all sorts of tricks. The puzzling thing is that I hear people repeating that the inspectors were kicked out when (in fact) they were pulled out after it leaked that some inspectors were forwarding info to Western intelligence organizations... GPS coordinates(?), etc.

I'd kinda like to get the inspectors back in there before I as a citizen give the White House the carte blanche they seem to want.

I guess you don't have a problem with the 'preemptory' or 'first strike' business. Part of the discussion of this involves Russia wanting to follow our lead (and using our actions to cover theirs) re: a possible strike into Georgia to root out those pesky Chechins. Supposedly they're itching to go as soon as they feel the coast is clear.

Man, I hate those unintended consequences. They can never be eliminated, but we ought to do all we can to minimize them.”

“Amen, brother!

And we may find out, as if we don't already know, that this is just a "wag the dog" war to take the heat off our domestic situation.

So who's sons do we sacrifice to pay for the stupidity and short-sightedness of our "leaders"?”

“You don't need to sacrifice my son, I'll go myself...

...and if they do have the weapons that threaten the world do you promise to leave the U.S. like Alex Baldwin, oh wait he's still here...”

“ok rosey....lets take a poll of soldiers and see what they're opinion of things is...my brother in law is a staff seargent in the marines and they are ready willing and able to go ..just like they were last time. they signed up for it, they knew what the risks were when they did.



anybody see the news today? iraq has fired on us 67 times in the last couple days in the "no fly zones".”

“But strat... I'm sure it was justified...

Remember we're the evil ones, they're only doing it to protect themselves...”

“Right. I'm not disagreeing with enlisted troops. You're absolutely right. They signed up and I'm glad they did. I'm just a little concerned about people's willingness to have other people (including their relatives, apparently) killed because someone tells you it needs to be done. Why the sudden pressing threat? Does Saddam have fissile material? All I'm saying is, let's see the proof. Show me! Show me! Show me!

They allegedly fire on U.S. and British war planes all the time. In case you haven't noticed, both US and UK forces have been "selectively" bombing Iraq for the past decade.”

“lol, yeah that bad ole donald rumsfeld is such a meanie...”

“yea i think they all want to what for iraq to send a nuke over and blow us up real good then they can say why did'nt bush stop them ...”

“wait not what”

“liberals are freakin out cuz the polls are against them . they will say anything to oppose the addministration. the people are tired of their BS.”

“"liberals are freakin out cuz the polls are against them"

Nah. I just value human life and prefer using violence as a last resort.

"they will say anything to oppose the addministration."

I'd like to be able to say something positive about the current administration, but so far nothing has been revealed...

"the people are tired of their BS"

I think everyone will agree on this indirect statement.”

“DOWN GOES TORRICELLI!”

“Rosey...

16 resolutions that he's ignored... when is violence a last resort? 20? 25?

And before Tilt says it again, I don't care if Saddam says we were sending intelligence back to the US or UK, I'm an american and choose to believe Americans over a man that would love to see my society wiped out.”

“Really? So Scott Ritter doesn't count, I guess...”

“scott ritter a trader”

“Scott Ritter is the same man that years ago said troops were literally running out the back doors as they were coming in the front. Now all the sudden Iraq is too be trusted, where does he stand?

BTW, still wondering when is that magic number that violence starts at? Or isn't there one?”

“"Whatever enables us to go to war, secures our peace." --Thomas
Jefferson”

“And whoever would dare to question the foreign policy acumen of the ventriloquist dummy the Far Right has propped up in the White House is UnAmerican.

"Powell is a wussie."

"McCain is a liberal."

You attack people On Your Own Side if they aren't bloodthirsty enough to suit you. So much for 'moderation'.

Well, I'm convinced. You people couldn't discuss this situation like rational adults if your lives depended on it. Hey, I tried. You folks are a hoot, though.

Though you might disagree, I believe that the nation is better served by a loyal opposition helping to refine policies involving the use of deadly force, rather than hordes of cheerleaders.”

“Who dares pull back the curtain on the Great And Powerful OZ???

So, Bush is to be beleived because he's an American?

Is there something about being born in the middle of the North American land mass that makes some people better than others?”

“whatever, i made point after point and none of you weenies acknowledged any of them. you just spout off the same old tired lines from the liberal lexicon that everyone grows weary of hearing. you even managed to play the race card. so go on tilt. anybody can go back and reread the thread and see where you ignored my points and regergitated your blather. that's why i got so frustrated the other day. cuz you don't counterpoint me, you usually just hurl insults or change the subject when i make a good point. i didn't start this infernal thread, but i am not scared to debate things.

i saw an interesting quote from McCain yesterday in the paper. is is FOR an imediate regime change in iraq. i'll try to find it since you only look up liberal stuff and wont believe me.”

“Stratdood said, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. See, I'm better than you!"

Here ya go quotemeister:

"There was never a good war, or a bad peace."

-- Benjamin Franklin”

“Hey Rosey, maybe you can explain why it was okay to go into Serbia, bomb civilian targets and effect a regime change when there were no US interests yet going into Iraq is a bad idea.”

“Am I wrong or was that a UN sanctioned event?”

“http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/01/i...todaysheadlines

Here are some numbers from today's NY Times article on cost of a war with Iraq. Translate these dollars into prescription medicine for fixed income seniors, basic health care for those who need but can't afford it, stimulation for jobs lost in this horrible economy we are enduring, or any other domestic needs we have but will transfer to fighting a war no one has yet proved we have to fight. What other country is willing to fork over this kind of largesse? We'll end up paying for all of it and then some.

$13,000,000,000 to get our troops over there

$9,000,000,000 A FREAKIN' MONTH to pulverize Iraq!!!

$7,000,000,000 to get our troops and equipment back home

$4,000,000,000 a month to keep an occupation force in Iraq

and these billions don't include the cost of rebuilding Iraq or giving Iraq the foreign aid we would ultimately have to give.

For what? Will we then own their oil? Will we then own their desert? After Iraq, who will be next? Let's pound Syria while we're there. That will save a bunch, and why not Iran, then leap over to the Sudan and any others we get paranoid about. Taking out most of the Middle East while we have the troops and equipment there would save a bunch. Would the price of gasoline then drop to $.35 a gallon. Probably not. A federal surcharge would most likely be levied to bail our asses out of war debt, but we could start a camel breeding program in our new territories, make man-made lakes in the deserts, and start the tourism campaign.

Is our government completely and fiscally looney? I'm sure the rest of you have watched as your IRA and 401 accounts have become chump change, your job has gone away, your utility costs have soared (probably this is artificial), housing costs, food costs, insurance costs, and just about everything else, and yet the government continues to remind us of the lowest inflation rate in eons. What does the government call all the price increases we are presently enduring, profit margins?

This is so sad....billions for 43's war and not much for the home front.”

“MM2003:

You may find talking to some of this crew is like talking to a brick wall.”

“I'm a retired school teacher...:)”

“Of course MM2003 we could strike a deal with the terrorists whereby they agree to only unleash their WMDs in retirement communities, thus saving on the prescription costs for fixed income seniors.”

“if you really wanna debate politics with Stratdewd turn your radio on, tune in Rush Limbaugh and yell at it. It's the same thing and you have the same chance of an opinion change”

“I think you have the right idea savage, of course then we have to deal with the terrorists and Bush is too much of a pu$$y to deal with Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan (they do have nukes, AND they do have terrorists there too)”

“Hey Savage, ya didn't ever get back to me on that Serbian bit... Currently Milosovec is on international trial. I am sure that the US does not have plans to do this for Saddam. These events are not comparable.”

“Those billions of bucks listed are slated to go right into the pockets of those contractors/parasites who feed off of war.

WAR IS A RACKET......hello!

That U.N. sanctioned hit on the Serbs, whether right or wrong, is history.

"We can only effect the future, and possibly learn from the past."
--Tom Terrific--”

“I think the spin-doctors would be peeing themselves with glee to see how readily some of the people here accept the propaganda.

Sadly, I don't think the majority of the population is any more discerning.”

“YOu want telling you to go to war? Scary stuff.

”