Dioxins from campfires?

“OK, I am writing a story from a meeting I attended last night. The Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (MPCA) is going through the permit process regarding air emission standards from a new tire-derived fuel (plus 20% wood) process creating energy.

(Yes, it IS FUN to write it up. LOL..NOT)

Dioxins (cancer causing agents) were brought up. Supposedly the new plant will not have dioxins. The woman from the MPCA said the main source of dioxins is through food, from people burning garbage in rural areas. (which I take it, means it gets on the food. I don't know if this was to be specific to THIS area... or in general... or what)

She noted anything burning puts off dioxins. She ESPECIALLY NOTED campfires (I presume for the contradiction of recreation vs. DIOXINS!!)

I am not a science or techie brain here. What do you think about dioxins and campfires? Are we all gonna die of cancer cuz we're spending a larger than ordinary amount of time sitting around campfires?

Someone please enlighten me. (And show how much I really don't know. LOL!!)

And BTW, the new plant will be under 1,000 feet from the already controversial ETHANOL plant (and the pollution it puts out). Preston, MN. Energy capital of the world. lol...”

“Maybe that's why the cave people died so young once they discovered fire?
*shaking head*”

“i don't know anything about dioxins

but it's probalby something under consideration around here - with the ethanol plant here, and fibrominn coming in, that thing that isn't supposed to smell, and will provide all this electricity to be sent to california by burning turkey #&%!$.”

“I would be suspicious of claims that campfires give off dioxins. I'd ask for supporting data. If they actually do, it would be in such minute amounts it would be ridiculous to worry about it. Many people lived to ripe old ages in the days of wood burning stoves.

These arsewipes use stuff like this in public meetings to throw off the scent. Assuming for a moment that campfires give off dioxins, how would that possibly compare to a plant burning old tires? Nows, assuming the plant burning the tires has a scrubber, the amount of dioxins would be reduced, probably severely. But I bet it would still produce more dioxins that all the campfires in the Monongahela on a busy weekend night.

I think they call it spin control. Ask for emission levels in PPM for their proposed plant and for the average campfire, assuming they can even support that idea.

Sounds like the MPCA person is in the pockets of the industry to me! But then I'm a cynical reporter by trade.”

“Go to dioxin link for a lot more info.

On that site was this statement:

Dioxin is formed by burning chlorine-based chemical compounds with hydrocarbons. The major source of dioxin in the environment (95%) comes from incinerators burning chlorinated wastes. Dioxin pollution is also affiliated with paper mills which use chlorine bleaching in their process and with the production of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) plastics.

They say the way dioxins get into the food supply is when dioxin pollution is absorbed in fish or plant products.

So technically, the woman was right. You can get dioxins from food, but only because of dioxin pollution from chemical plants. That is about the most cynical statement I ever heard from somebody charged with protecting the public, and if I were reporting the story I would bury her.

Good luck and happy hunting. Let me know how it turns out.”

“I'm learning!”

“After re-reading these posts, the plant probably would not give off much in the way of dioxins, since dioxins are chlorine-derived. It's still a cynical statement.

The question that rises in my mind, though, is what the plant would emit. Burning tires do give off toxic gases.”

“"Dioxin is formed by burning chlorine-based chemical compounds with hydrocarbons. The major source of dioxin in the environment (95%) comes from incinerators burning chlorinated wastes."

The wastes are generally the desposible plastic wraps and bags (flexible packaging)that your food is stored in. But the packaging material must have a chlorinated compound in it's structure.

I don't know exactly how dioxins are formed in the combustion process but if you are burning a chlorinated material and the combustion temperature goes from roughly 1800F down to a temperature of 900F dioxins can form if there are particles of a precipitator in the gas flue stream. Iron oxide is one of the most common precipitators.

Liz I know you're looking for excuses not to go on that first overnighter but I think just about any campfire you might build is safe as long as you don't burn say 1500 Slim Jim wrappers.

Hey when did you move to MN? I thought you lived in Iowa?”

“Or maybe burning a ton of jerky wrappers.”

“Lizs, keep us posted on this issue. Email me a copy of your story, please.”

“Oh no, Geobeet!! (Editor comes down on reporter!!) I SKIRTED the PPM, etc. I had no handouts and don't exactly trust myself quoting that stuff from MY notes!!

I focused on the community doubts about the issue, their questions, other bad #&%!$ that has happened. I think it tell the story well enough.
(and freakin' long enough, about 70 freakin' inches... OK, I DO HAVE SUBHEADS!!... Also had a second story, relating to comment period on the EAS, Environmental Assessment Worksheet, which determines if an EIS, Environmental Impact Statement, is done.)

ya still wanna see? Prolly sucks!! I hate waaaaay involved techie stories like this. However, I am good at quotes like:

"We already have one ickey plant here. We need two, side by side?"

LOL

Solly buddy, I live 15 miles from MN. IN IOWA. But my newspaper job is in MN. Got that, sweet thing?? lol”

“For the past four years or so old timers like myself, Phil, and Tom T. have heard you weasel out more overnight hiking trips that we can count. This dioxins in the campfire excuse beggars belief. Face it, you're going to have to camping sooner or later. Sign up for the Sierra trip next summer or we'll never let you live this one down.”

“Solly, I need you to write you. :-)

Write me at fauxpax@hotmail.com”

“ETHANOL plant? People actually complain about living by a booze factory?

lizs, I am a scientist. I think we are all going to die of dioxins in the air. If something else doesn't get us first.”

“I also have to bring up that 'REAL' backpackers don't build fires. We have evolved to low impact and use effecient little stoves to warm our food. Everybody knows that building a fire in the backcountry is like the worst thing you can do for the ecology.”

“Actually, water has been named by the scientists of the world as the most endangered resource.”

“Didn't they say a few years ago that grilling over a fire was bad from chemicals in the smoke on the food?”

“I always tell my reporters, "You're the one covering the meeting. Don't let me influence the story." That is the bottom line.

These kinds of stories are never easy to cover. What I used to do was to cover the meeting in one story and then research the issues in another at a later date, after taking the time for the research.

I still find it weird that a state official would make that kind of statement in a public meeting. And though dioxins are not the issue, I would want to know what toxic gases the plant might produce, whether it has a scrubber, and how efficient the scrubber is. Of course, they will tell you that the process gives off little or no toxic gases and the scrubber is so efficient it will clean the air of not only Minnesota but every neighboring state and most of Canada. That's why they pay the PR folks the big bucks and reporters in peanut shells.

Your quote reminded me of my favorite from my days with a daily in Virginia. I covered the Nelson County Supervisors, a mountainous county south of Charlottesville. The issue was a road the locals wanted paved.

A guy in overalls stood up with his hands in his pockets and said, "At thar road would shake the horns off a billy goat!"

Yeah, send me the story. Sounds like an intersting issue. Worse even than windmills.

Biz, are ya telling us our gas and butane stoves don't give off toxic gases?”

“"Solly, I need you to write you. :-)"

Why would I want to write myself? You're ducking the issue Lizs. Time for you to go backpacking.

And I hate to tell you this but you should have seen some of the fires real backpackers (us) had way back there in the pristine Sierra. Hugh fires. Towering infernos. Fires the rangers could have seen for miles ...... if they had been around. But they weren't, and so we enjoyed each one of them.
Nothing like a good fire.”

“Well, sh, there are bigots who think that anyone who doesn't conform to their way of thinking is inferior...”

“Just because they're a state official doesn't mean they're not an idiot. lol!

It's amazing how many crises and blowups occur because of incomplete or slightly incorrect information.”

“your pic is on the WOW NEWGIRL thread”

“Huh? wait a minute...”

“I don't THINK so...”

“As I was about to say, lizs, the #&%!$ from the MPCA was, at the very least, being disingenuous and you should royally roast her for it in your article.”

“Hmmmm, how come this thing'll let me write bastard and not b!tch?
I'M GONNA FILE A SEX DISCRIMINATION LAWSUIT!!!”

“know what your burning in yer fire.Do not use treated wood-wood that is used for fences,porches,decks.That wood when burned, gives off a lot of dioxins.”

“The only time MY campfires give off dioxin is when I burn chlorine-based chemical compounds with hydrocarbons.”

“She is probably correct in asserting that campfires give off dioxins. What she did not say was that the dioxins in trees result from pollution caused by the chemical plants that emit dioxins.

The question that then rises is the amount of dioxins emitted from campfires (undoubtedly very little) does not begin to compare to the amount of dioxins given off by pulp mills, or how many campfires it would take to equal the emissions from one dioxin-belching pulp mill.

It's a clever device these nerds employ to throw off the scent. She could have just said this particular plant will emit no dioxins and let it rest. Having made the statement she made, she should have followed up with clarifying data.”

“Does this mean, instead of Bar-B-Qing, I have to say that "I am Dioxinizing" my dinner?”

“Depends on where the trees that made the charcoal came from, but you're welcome to say what you want.

You could always throw in some Slim Jim wrappers to get the steaks seasoned just right.”

“It might flare up and Dioxinize my eyebrows...:)”

“Life is full of risks.”

“Maybe the dioxins in the campfire come from burning all those plastic wrappers you accumilate from eating junk food all day? (Oh, and plastic drink bottles)”

“Water and air are both endangered. We need to protect both!”