Protecting the Environment-Any ideas?

“If I bought all my groceries from the closest town to me, I would spend so much more (and get so much less variety) than going to the Wal-Mart that's just 5 minutes farther in the opposite direction. My quality of life would be much lower. As for medical care, often health plans dictate who you go to see for care, so the local doc may not be an option.�
techntrek
12:13:38 PM
4/20/06

"Quality of Life"

That is an excuse that can be used for all issues and is not debateable.

However;

The bulk of our food is local and all of it is Organic. We walk to Whole Foods and she volunteers at a friends stand at the Farmers Market in the city. For Dani, though, it is about Quality and that's one reason why She does it. Another is It's environmentaly beneficial. Before I met her I drove to Shoppers Food Warehouse. I did this to save money. Compared to fresh, local food, it's completely tasteless.

So I guess "Quality" is relative, no?”

“Tech, you're not suggesting people park their car under a solar carport while they work. Don't talk like that the powers that want to sell ethenol, hydrogen and all these value added fuels will go broke.I live in the Cal high desert near some of the biggest solar plantations .I always wonder, when I drive by them , when every one has a roof and would love a dual purpose patio are they eating desert with these things.”

“TNT, Difference in worldview has become evident. My step-grandchildren are in public schools several hours each weekday about 10 months a year.

Additional socialization, beyond family and neighbors, evenings and weekends is not necassarily called for.

Youth now are being trained to seek contunual entertainment from others instead of learning the skills that might be acquired from individual or small group play, study, projects, chores, etc.
last edited: 4/21/06 10:03:48 AM”

“don't vote for republicans”

“Nothing wrong with democrats ,Ah?”

“bear - all of lonesurveyor's other points were subjective opinions, too. No reason my own opinion about my quality of life is any less valid than his. In fact, only I can judge what my quality of life should be. So you are right, there is nothing to debate - following your reasoning, Lonesurveyor shouldn't have stated any of his opinions, huh? I don't think so. He brings up valid points that can and should work for some people, I'm debating that they can be applied to everyone like he wants. There are lots of reasons for people not to take the environment as the 1st deciding factor in every decision.

uncliff - yes and no. Yes, solar charging at home. No, not at work unless you are more than 20 miles from home. With the proper selection of vehicle and batteries you can go 40-50 miles on one charge so if you work more than 20-25 miles away, you will need to get some juice at work. New battery technology coming soon may triple or quadruple that number. No other form of renewable energy produces zero pollution (after manufacturing), requires less maintenance than a slate roof (assuming a grid-tied home, no batteries), and has no operating noise. I didn't bring up ethanol or hydrogen. They both have good energy densities which are useful for transportation, but neither are base energy sources. A base source embodies more energy than it takes to bring it to a useful state, like pumping oil from the ground and refining it into gas. The only exception is hydrogen produced from water using solar for electrolysis. All other hydrogen sources require hydrocarbons as a base and lots of energy to convert it into pure hydrogen. To make enough ethanol to replace gasoline use, we would need more land than we have in the US.

lonesurveyor - you are still transfering your personal circumstances into rules that you want to apply to the whole world. Its great your sgkd's get all the socialization they need from school. Unfortunately you'll see many kids hanging out at the mall on Saturday when they would be better served on the ball field. From a theoretical standpoint it would be great if your rules could apply to everyone (I wish it could be so), but they can't. Take into account other's circumstances. People can't drive less, so lets work to make it better for them to drive - in other words, better for the environment.”

“'People can't drive less'?

Market and natural forces may soon dictate otherwise, I wouldn't even try to.

I foresee no adequate technical fix for the numbers of people in the world.”

“Oil just closed above $75.00 barrel. That's an all time high. Charging work car batteries at night is hard and why make hydrogen from the sun when the energy can go strait to batteries.When people are at work the sun shins. Hydrogen is an energy conversion not a source an thus allows middle men to do the same as gasoline now.The public has to go to the source and get the pigs out of the way.I you have no utility bills you would vote differently.”

“lonesurveyor - you are right, $3.00+ a gallon of gas is actually a good thing. It will make people find more efficient ways to get around, although I don't think it will make them drive less. The price spike last September proved that. The demand curve for gasoline didn't drop at all.

uncliff - charging batteries at home is easy. Far easier than taking time out to stop at a gas station for 10 minutes every week. You just go home (not out of your way) and plug in the charging line. Might take you an extra 10 seconds as you walk towards your door. And why are you fixated on hydrogen? Again, I didn't bring it up - you did. I do not support the current plans to harvest it from hydrocarbon sources. I do support producing it from sun/water, because it can be harvested all day while you are at work, and then you have a high energy density energy source to drive very far the next day, plus cook with and heat your home with. The current battery technology can't do that - it has a relatively low energy density. It has to charge all night (when there is no sun, so its from the grid) and then can only go 40 miles. Possibly new battery tech will allow 200 miles on a charge, but that's not today's tech. As for charging a battery at work - most employers aren't or can't install the equipment needed to charge everyone's cars all day. That's a big capital investment and long-term expense. Where I work, there are about 13,000 employees on campus and we park in big open lots. They just won't install an electric outlet at every parking space. Never. I told you first that hydrogen wasn't an energy source ("neither are base energy sources"), so why point that out to me? Letting everyone produce their own hydrogen at home is putting the energy in people's own hands. That was my own point, you don't seem to see you are making the same points. And just what does voting have to do with this? BTW, I'm in the planning stages of installing solar thermal and solar electric. Are you?
last edited: 4/21/06 1:04:27 PM”

“You know, I was watching the Flinstones a while back, I mean Fred and Barney tote the whole family on outings just using their feet...seems as reasonable as the other ideas.”

“SAVE THE PLANET.........MOVE!”

“Sorry, I come and go to much to pay full attention and am repeating. As for voting ,because of independence from wires,pipes comming into the home we think differently about government and it's role. Getting employers into the transportation is a must to help fight, yes fight ,those that resist these changes.If the individual doesn't become pro-active the same powers that created the need for gasoline cars will again take over.The powers have been known to hire lobbyist to fight those who wish to distroy the huge monopolies now in control. I do agree with all your thinking and wish more would take up the hobby.”

“Hey, did we figure out who in the Administration was responsible for the Global Warming on Mars? Just waiting to get the moonbat read on that one.”

“tech - I didn't say it was less valid nor did I say one should consider the environment first for everything. You offered up "quality of life". I was only pointing out the potential to use that reason for almost anything. Once again, not judging it.

I was also pointing out that in my own case I gave up some expendible income by the way I shop for food. Is that lowering my Quality of life?
last edited: 4/21/06 2:05:47 PM”

“Xl, oil at $75 a barrel today and falling bond yields indicate that someone has figured out a way of fighting inflation with high gasoline instead of raising interest which hurts big biz. Again, let the little guy pay the price for a bunch of pigs. I thought you might like that.”

“XL - you're the one with the way out there views on things. Times and opinions, they are a changing. Maybe the Flintstones vehicle might be the right choice for you ;op”

“Hopefully this will come out soon. The refridgerator is usually the biggest energy consumer in a home, on a 24-hour basis.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/magnetic_fridge.php”

“I read that Tech, here is a link in the comments section, the fridge has already been made and won an award.

http://cocolico.info/2006/02/03/swiss-magnetic-fridge/”

“Cool!



(pun intended)”

“Yeah but HOW MUCH? In dollars and long term health effects.”

“What, you don't want your watch to pull you across the floor to the fridge every time it starts up? Then when you make contact you'll get a constant pulse like a hospital defibrillator?

Just kidding, I'm sure its safe. The magnetic field would be contained and even if it wasn't I doubt it would be an issue for anyone. After all, when you get an MRI you are sitting inside a magnetic field that's a million times stronger than anything this fridge would emit.”

“I hadn't heard a word about this in the media!

SYDNEY (AFP) - Australia's largest city was plunged into darkness for an hour Saturday night as Sydney underwent a self-imposed blackout to raise awareness of global warming.

Residents and businesses across the city of four million flicked off the lights for "Earth Hour" at 7:30 pm (0930 GMT).

Tourists had to view the famous Sydney Opera House by moonlight, while the Harbour Bridge's steel span and the clown's face of the waterside Luna Park fairground were also blacked out.

The neon on a huge blinking Coca-Cola advertising hoarding in Sydney's Kings Cross nightclub district flickered off for the first time since it was installed in 1974.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070331/sc_afp/australiaclimatewarmingblackout_070331212725”

“i guess they didnt raise a whole lotta awareness”

“Yes, kinda sad isn't it?”

“I'll bet the stars looked great.

I'm sure it raised the awareness of light pollution for the residents there.

Dark Skies

”

“if they are rezlly concerned, whats stopping themfrom doing that every night, all night?

seems superficial”

“When we had that blackout from NY to Ohio the night sky was amazing. I could do with alot less lights.”

“All the folks building McMansions in Columbia County have to have floodlights shining UP at them from the bushes so they can pretend they're living at Tara.

(nevermind their neighbor's house is only twenty feet away)”

“You need to go to sites that are really into sustainability issues. treehugger.com reported on it back in December:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/lights_out_in_s.php

There are some msm's on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6509437.stm?ls

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/03/31/sydney.lights.ap/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070331.waustraliablack0331/BNStory/International/home”

“and the following site, along with treehugger.com, is a great site for learning how to be "green"

http://www.coopamerica.org/”

“Bear, I go there alot and a few other sites. I was commenting on the mainstream medias'lack of coverage to raise awareness for people who don't go to sites like those.

Here's another abit techie but...
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/home
Green products:
http://www.livingreen.com/index.htm
And a fave of mine:
http://www.homepower.com/index.cfm
And of course my very fave of faves:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/”

“The government should create grants and loans for companies and entrepreneurs who wish to develop products to be sold to owners and renters of single residence homes that allow each home to be energy independent, water and waste independent and eco-friendly.

Furthermore, cities should receive funding for the development of sustainable resources and energy (or the same such products as mentioned above should be created for high-rises and apartment complexes).

Lastly, cities, towns, and counties should create ordinances promoting and protecting trees and vegetation rather than restricting them.

In my opinion, each and every residence should be required not only to be fire-safe, and handicap accessible, but energy independent (so much for blackouts ever again), as well as balanced in all of its gas emissions. Furthermore, there should be at least an equal amount of trees per individual living creature per residence.

Also, individuals should either be required or highly encouraged (give them some tax reward or grant opportunity) to grow and sustain their own gardens (indoors or outdoors) with emphasis placed on usefullness to the individual and not just beauty (might promote some self-responsibility in individuals once again).

Ultimately it all starts with education. Not just the education of individuals on the dangers and what they can do, but more importantly on how we should be responsible for ourselves and our own lives, not depend on someone else (or the government) to do that! Unfortunately, part of that education requires altering the public's belief that "others should always pay for our problems" because they must somehow be responsible.

I am reminded of something I once said to someone who loves the American way of 'sue, sue, sue!': "If I trip over a rock in the forest and break my ankle, IF I LIVE, should I sue the government (state forests) or Mother nature for gross neglect? I mean, am I not entitled a reasonable assurance of safety in government and publically maintained lands? Of course neither! It is my own fault. I chose to walk that way, I chose to go into that environment, and I chose to take the everyday danger of falling when walking, just as the idiot who walked out into the winter weather who slipped on the asphalt of the parking lot owned by the Ford dealer and broke their ankle!"

Our own personal choices provide our own personal fate, and that is exactly why "self-responsibility" is the first thing that needs to be drilled into peoples heads before anyone can ever expect any changes for the better ecologically, socially, or politically.

It is true that sometimes "others" infringe on our rights, bodies, and minds (and even environment), but to place any responsibility solely on that individual completely defies the logic and natural occurance of space, time, and chance (which we DO have a responsibility to our selves to remember and accept).

If you walk down the sidewalk and are hit by a drunk driver that person should go to jail (or be executed if you believe in that punishment), but ADULTS (children make this explanation and example more complex) should realize that that danger always exists (even if the driver is not drunk) and they too have a responsibility (if for any reason than to their own life and best interest) to be aware of their environment.

My only point in this example and the statement prior to that is that our society (and most societies) have a mindset that "places the blame" as if everything is "expected" to be all rosie all the time, and that it is reasonable to expect such. I am saying "says who?", and where have you ever seen this in nature (being backpackers)? That attitude of "placing the blame" and relinquishing personal responsibility is a HUGE obsticle (in my opinion), socially, against ever getting any sensible issue resolved for good (all we ever do is place bandages on the problems until the next one comes along- we never solve them).

I know this is getting long, but one last thing... I am a "dad". When my daughter was a toddler and she grabbed stuff she shouldn't I put it out of reach- I solved the problem and removed the issue. I didn't just tell her "no", or constantly keep on her (no bandages) I just solved it immediately by being smarter than the child.

Perhaps the eco-community is taking the wrong route? They are slapping the hands of the childish companies and saying "no" when they should just be taking the problem and removing it? Removing it by placing the responsibility on the individual and on each family (and not the companies). Removing it by going door-to-door with sustainable items and equipment and petitions rather than spending all the donated money on worthless "mind-propoganda" commonly called "ads". Using the money for action and not words (self-responsibility)...

God/dess, no wonder I am a libratarian!”

“The government should create grants and loans for companies and entrepreneurs who wish to develop products to be sold to owners and renters of single residence homes that allow each home to be energy independent, water and waste independent and eco-friendly.

That's not small government; that's LARGE GOVERNMENT.

Develop and create it on your own. If you build a better mousetrap, people will buy it. Don't ask me as a taxpayer to subsidize your idea. I already have to subsidize a lot of other crap I don't want to, like dairy farmers, and for that, all I get is expensive milk. Forget that.”

“Forgive me, please...

I live in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania where Pennsylvania Power and Light Company (PP&L) and the Pennsylvania Natural Gas Company (PG Energy) have a monopoly on energy (difference in regions).

I was speaking of "state" (guess I should have specified) grants and loans in either case.

In my state the government (the people) would be taking from itself to give to itself (what a commonwealth is actually for), rather than to corporate mongers... It would promote the financial independence of individuals, and in the long run (which is never in any one's mind who has no foresight, nor care for their offspring) require NO need for the grants or loans in perhaps no more than half a century...

Furthermore, it would allow someone to develop a good idea their self (I did say loans right?) and it would promote small business AND the middle class, so (in my mind anyway- although I hear your point) it is still a liberatarian concept.”

“strange that a libertarian would believe taking the cat out of the bag would be a good thing, especially desiring to put ut back in”

“Tango, I thought I was the only one that read Home Power. Cool. Treehugger is good, too, I visit it every day. Here are a few more I check out regularly.

http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/home
http://sustainablog.blogspot.com/
http://www.unpluggedliving.com/
http://www.worldchanging.com/”

“Education is the key.

For years I have had friends who were staunch "outlaw Abortion" freaks. In a wierd twist the "educate and inform" is changing attitudes.

You must remember that Freedom is the natural yearning of the human spirit. But the Human spirit also yearns for "learning" and "experience". So you provide real experience (not the false stuff the libbies and socialist are putting out) and you begin to change attitudes.

The problem is that we are going after the environmental issues with a total DEARTH of historical ideal. Georgia Pacific was a company that started to provide timber to the railroad industry. IN the early part of the company history they just cut as they went. Eventually they got to the WEST COAST and the Pacific...OOPS no more trees in their path. Today they are the largest planters of trees in the world.”

“"... I am a "dad". When my daughter was a toddler and she grabbed stuff she shouldn't I put it out of reach- I solved the problem and removed the issue. I didn't just tell her "no", or constantly keep on her (no bandages) I just solved it immediately by being smarter than the child.”
MandraketheGray

Smarter, huh? So what happens when she learns to push a chair against the counter and climb? Do you just put it higher? or lock it up? Do you have locks on all your cabinets, drawers and interior doors? What about when she turns 16 and wants to use the car, instead of saying no you lock the garage? Hide the car keys?

If that is your position than you can never get mad at her for climbing on the cabinets, or finding the car keys and going joy riding in the car since you never told her she couldn't. Your way basically says go ahead and do it if you can find what I hid.”