Protecting the Environment-Any ideas?

“Wondering how many people on this board are concerned about protecting the environment, what you would do if you knew about a specific incident of possible harm to the environment, and if in general, people feel the government is doing enough to protect the environment? Or is it all smoke and mirrors?

Is anybody involved in any political/activist/citizen watch dog groups? If so, which one(s)? Are they local or national?

This affects you and your hiking areas!”

“liz? anyone?

no one cares about the environment anymore, we are all preoccupied with terrorists”

“hey im a member of the sierra club...does that count?”

“I am deeply concerned about the environment.”

“While hiking around behind a house I was renting on the outskirts of Evansville, IN, I came across an oil rig that was leaking pretty bad.

A small collection pit had been dug behind the rig. It was full of oil and water and the conconction was running over the edge down into a nearby stream. This stream met with another and then went through a nearby subdivision where I had frequently seen small children playing on the banks and in the water.

I used a nearby metal rod to pull the drive belt off the rig motor stopping the pump. Then I placed an anonymous call to the company from a number I found on the rig. I told them that their rig was down and why.

A couple days later, the rig was working again, but the leak hadn't been fixed.

I contacted the local IDEM office and they said they would look into it. Sure enough the rig was shut down and earth around it was removed.

I guess I should have contacted IDEM first and not messed with their equipment, but it just pissed me off that they knew they had a problem and weren't doing anything about it.

I guess that's all we can do. We can help be the watchdogs and try to influence the people who can get things done like IDEM.”

“Who's IDEM? Are they a government agency?”

“Sorry, yes, it's the Indiana Department of Environmental Managment

They are very active in Indiana”

“Maybe this will wake you up. YOUR TAX DOLLARS GO TO GOVERNMENT PROJECTS AIMED AT PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT. HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE GETTING A GOOD RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT? ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT LEAKY OIL RIGS AND OTHERS (particulary government agencies) AREN'T BEING FINED OR THAT THE LAW ISN'T PROPERLY BEING ENFORCED?? This all stems out of a job I recently obtained where we were supposedly protecting the environment, and using TAX DOLLARS to do it...blowing smoke up the *** of the taxpayers, IMO. A classic case of the fox watching the hen house.

BTW, nice work Indiana John.”

“Well in that case, you got the IDEM to go after a private company. What if the IDEM was asked to go after another government agency?? They might be a little more reluctant to do it...no?”

“Has the Sierra Club ever sued the EPA? One of the State DEQ's? For not enforcing environmental law?”

“I just joined the West Virginia Highlands Conservancy to get involved in the windmill issue there. Short answer to q about the government doing enough is no, but I also sense that rushing into things is not a good answer either. The windmill situation is a case in point. While wind power is certainly cleaner than coal-fired power plants, we still do not know enough about their potential threat to migrating birds. And they are being placed without regard to impact of views.

There should have been study of these issues and thought put into placement. As it is, developers rush in wherever the wind blows.

WVHC is also highly involved in fighting mountaintop removal for coal extraction. It has been the premier group involved in protecting wilderness and other wild lands in West Virginia.

My thinking in getting involved has been that the area where I hike is being impacted, so I need to be involved.”

“I burn my trash, instead of sending it to a dump...when packing, I burn my plastic baggies or give them to Khatru to eat, then its his fault they fall on the ground when they come out his a$$ 2 days later.”

“excellent Geobeet.

Private environmental groups are so much more effective at initiating change, no? What are we paying the EPA for??

I got a job working for a local government agency that was fined/sued by the EPA and a private environmental group for polluting the environment a few years back...so now, they are doing all this 'research,' collecting data, which they assume insures them against possible future lawsuits. It is a joke. How can this agency be expected to self-regulate?? Why are taxpayers allowing it? It does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to know that these convicted polluters are now throwing money (and IMO it is exactly that, throwing money away) at projects aimed at 'protecting' the environment. I am wondering if the EPA mandated this so many years ago. A third party, objective scientific outfit should be regulating these suckers.”

“Stikmon, burning plastic is a bad idea, dood.

I hope you are downwind of the flames.”

“We need to remember that change is not easy to effect (or affect either).

But it is possible. It takes not only hard work but perserverance, and sometimes accepting defeat and still going on.”

“I am very concerned about the environment but my views seem to be non-traditional. I am an active member of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Association (100+ service hours/year) which helps patrol one of the ten busiest national wilderness areas in the country.

I propose the following:

1. Protect the wilderness areas by using Forest Service personnel and unpaid volunteers to educate visitors about the wilderness and LNT practices. Encourage visitors up to a managable quota so that more people get educated. Form alliances with universities, Boy Scout councils, and other organizations to conduct research and service projects.

2. Switch the emphasis in our country away from water treatment, clean-up, the EPA, and punative approaches as our primary way of protecing the environment toward a system of incentives for prevention, innovation, and investment. This is done with favorable tax policies like the energy tax credits in the mid 80s. Allow companies to deduct from their tax bill any expenses directly related to energy conservation, cleaning up the air, water, and sewage, or to developing renewable or recyclable processes. In short, encourage companies to implement the ISO-14000 environmental standard and detect their implementation expenses from their tax bill (tax credit). Provide favorable treatment to companies that are ISO-14000 certified.

3. Allow home owners to deduct energy efficient or recycle improvements from their tax bill (tax credits).

4. If you replace a old car (say 10 years old) with a new car that is more energy efficient and less poluting, give the buyer a tax credit or major deduction.

5. Treat the environment more as a scientific or engineering problem than as social or public policy problems. Work on solutions more than on placing blame.

6. Companies have no incentive to share their environmental problems with those outside their company or in the public arena because they will be sued out of business by opportunistic lawyers. Provide protection for companies who are actively working on their problems (this has historically been a sticky area with OSHA and the EPA).

7. Quit entering into trade agreements like GATT or NAFTA that shifts business from the US to countries that where the environment and worker safety are ignored.”

“I suppose the WVHC has had some interaction with Bobby Byrd, then.

I remember him lobbying the Clinton Adminstration to issue waivers re: the Clean Water Act so that coal companies could nonchalantly dispose of those mountaintops by dumping them into streambeds.

When I heard about it, one of the things I did was to send Bobby a letter containing one of his own quotes I heard on C-SPAN2....

"Where have all the heroes gone?"

(I received no response)”

“I like your views, Phil”

“Biz - Just read some of your responses. FYI, ISO-14000 audit/certification is done by a third party, not the government.”

“I haven't received any responses either Tilt (yet)”

“Interesting idea, Biz... the Sierra Club suing the EPA.

Actually, who knows?? There might be a lawsuit involving a tire-burning/energy-producing facility in Preston, MN... a town I report on.

Already there is an ethanol plant there, which had to go through hell with the locals when applying to increase production.

Of course, it went through MPCA (Minnesota Pollution Control Agency) analysis for pollutants... and through public hearings. People were not real happy when it was basically rubber-stamped through.

Now, the tire-derived fuel (TDF) faciilty.... it would be built within 900 ft. of the ethanol plant. At the MPCA public hearing, people were asking, "Are you SURE you have tested not just for air pollutants, but for possible COMBINATION of pollutants from the two plants?"

The MPCA has still not gave a real good answer to that one, other than a pat "yes."

It was pointed out that test for equipment to run the facility -- new equipment -- were run by the manufacturers of the equipment. The people were appalled. MPCA rep said, oh that is not unusual; that is the way things are normally done>> Like THAT is supposed to make a person feel better.

The MPCA rep was asked if the MPCA Board had ever turned down a business request. She said no. Once the board had turned one down, and it was later overturned in court. So basically, you want to build something, you're IN, unless it's just gawd-awful-bad... and those ideas never get to the public hearing point.

She told the crowd if the Board approved it, and they wanted to attempt to stop it, they could take the MPCA to court. That apparently had not been done yet, but was feasible.

Right now the question is, does an environmental assessment (EAW) worksheet answer enough questions? Or is an enivronmental impact statement (EIS) needed? It requires much more work and could run around $300,000 when all is said and done -- enough dollars to make the owner of the proposed business think twice.

Also, in my hometown, the city government was sued because they allowed a Super WalMart to put fill on a river flood plain and build. The Iowa DNR (Department of Natural Resources) said, hey, it's OK with us. (this on the banks of river of "National Scenic River" status).

The District Court held for the plaintiffs, saying that to be proper, the fill request should have gone through the city's Board of Adjustment, and not through the Council. Another store had the same request turned down earlier, but they had gone through the Board of Adjustment, as was typically expected. (You don't think Wal-Mart knows exactly how to work a City Council to get what it wants??! Think again... )

Wal Mart appealed. The Iowa Supreme Court decided to take the case and will be reviewing in December.

We have a lot of environmentally aware INDIVIDUALS around here who are not scared to take their government officials to court.”

“This is an innovative little tool

Vote.com Environmental Issues”

“Worth noting. The San Gorgonio Wilderness is the result of one or two people who decided to try and protect the area from development. It was a long battle and quite a story. If you want some inspiring reading before embarking on a battle of your own, read, "A Wilderness Preserved"”

“hmmm. thanks for getting the wheels spinning, lizs”

“Also, regarding ethanol production... there was a recent settlement between 11 Minnesota ethanol plants and the EPA/MPCA.

Seems last year the MPCA found some UNKNOWN/EXTRA pollutants or VOCs (volatile organic compounds) that hadn't been tested for in the past. Holy sh|t, they better be tested for now!!!

(again, giving complete confidence in a STATE regulating agency that they "know" what they're doing)

So, they went and fined all these plants for NOT testing for something they had NOT been asked to test for.

LMAO!! Ain't government great??”

“I work for what has been called has been labeled on this board the "enviro industry." I now work for the National Environmental Trust. The mission of the EPA has a lot more to do with human health than it does with things like ecosystems nad the overall health of the environment. It serves a purpose, but its not enough to protect the environment. As for tax breaks for emissions ect... its been done and it doesn't go far enough, without mandatory standards the gains will always be minimal.”

“Tilt: Bobby Byrd is at best an enigmatic mystery. He leans in whatever direction he thinks he has to. He was instrumental in the federal purchase of 12,000 acres of land for the Canaan Valley National Wildlife Refuge and would probably have gotten the Blackwater Canyon National Park through had it not been for the Bush victory in the election.

But he is also concerned about economic development, and his record there is almost anti-environment.

He did not respond to an email I sent him on the windmill issue, and my email was far from confrontational. I suspect he does not reply to non-constituents, although I will test him again in the not too distant future.

He is interesting to watch. At home he comes across almost like a country preacher. In Congress, he sometimes brings up some pretty deep issues. He is probably more pragmatic that anybody gives him credit for. He does ride the wave of popularity that surrounds him and milks it for all it's worth (and why shouldn't he for that matter?).

I have seen him in action. He is a legend, and he knows it. He likes dramatic flair, and he likes being lionized. He can also be venal and petty. He has been a power in Washington for most, if not all, of my adult life.

I don't always like what he does, and I don't always respect him. But I am in awe of him. If you can shut down your emotions, he is interesting to watch - almost a latter day Huey Long without Blaze Starr (and he may have one of those for all we know).

He does love tweaking Republican presidents. He makes me laugh out loud with some of the things he comes up with.

"And there he was, making a speech, and he had all those soldiers and sailors lined up behind him for the television cameras, ... very patriotic. I could do that!"

That last line is the turn of the knife, leaving the impression that imagery is far beyond him. Don't believe it for a second. I've seen him speak, taking out a Bible and waving it before the believers.

He works both ends, and he does it very well. He has been very effective for West Virginia. While the rest of the nation looks at him like he's a stupid hick, he quietly gets what he wants. That's why they keep re-electing him.

The mountaintop removal issue is currently stalled under a federal court ruling. Basically the practice violates federal law, but enforcement power is vested in the state, which turns its eyes away. WVHC is at work to get the state to enforce the law. The probable outcome? Who knows?”

“Also, the ethanol plants need to install scrubbers in their stacks and other measures, which run upwards of $1 million, as part of the settlement.

To be fair, the plant in Preston already had installed scrubbers, in trying to help please the people of Preston. Their board, mostly farmers in the local area, try to anticipate and keep the plant as good a friend as it can be. The burnt corn smell is no longer so bad, after scrubber installtion.

This plant has tried to be "a good friend" and I commend it for that... however, that still doesn't mean there might not be really bad stuff coming out in its emissions.”

“biz is a member of ELF.”

“This will help you sleep at night lizs

There are only 40 'Priority Pollutants' that we even test for. Guess what? There are literally millions of new chemicals being discharged to the environment everyday. What's your bet that a few of those are hazardous?? But that is a bit off topic..

If you want more information, check out the paper by Daughton published in Environmental Health Perspectives. He surmises that Viagra and other pharmecutical/ personal care products (such as the active ingredients in sunblock) released into the environment accumulate and produce some ultimate unknown effect. But that is science fiction...”

“Who's ELF, where do I join?

Seriously. I am more a concerned taxpayer worried about getting a good return on my investment. I don't mind paying for government programs. As long as they WORK.

said partially tongue in cheek Hey, maybe the government should do a study on that!”

“I don't know about science fiction. When we synthesize drugs from natural substances, we assume we know what effects there will be. But we have demonstrated time and time again in past history that we have no idea what were are really doing.

It was only recently that we learned the effects of chloro-flouro carbons on the ozone layer. We ingest drugs without any thought about potential harmful effects down the road.”

“How 'bout this one?

Republicans for Environmental Protection”

“All drugs are only partially injested. Which means eventually in some concentration they all end up in sewage treatment plants which eventually release them to rivers/streams. So, in the case of Viagra..maybe we will have some very horny fish out there?”

“Thanks Pathman, worth reading”

“Interesting thread, I'm a professional engineer in Environmental consulting. I worked in mining engineering for about 10 years and have done environmental for the last 15. The stories of what really is and isn't important to IDEM, any State DEP, and USEPA would curl your hair. I believe in protecting the environment but from intimate knowledge of state and Fed regs and enforcement as well as modeling and risk asessment a lot of the regs are overblown BS. I don't have a problem with mountain top removal mining either. Properly done ( and you don't have much choice or you get mondo fines and bond forfit)its better than contour mining and you have useable land left over on completion. Having to put highwalls back is pretty useless, makes no additional game habitat, and leaves the property worthless. Could rant on this subject for hours. I did BTW quit doing engineering work on developments as I couldn't stand turning nice farms into Walmarts anymore. With environmental you're helping the environment, hopefully doing what is really needed without going overboard and making your client broke.”

“No one who has ever seen Robert Byrd in the well of the Senate would ever mistake him for a hick. No other politician peppers his oratory with such invocations of Horace, Shakespeare, Homer, Pliny the Elder, Plato, Socrates...


You know who else was great.

Paul Wellstone. Few people could get the folks fired up the way he could. Truly amazing.”

“Geobeet, I am curious about federal purchase of land for national parks. I assume from your post that you believe federal purchase is a good thing. Is that better than preserving the same land as a state park? Is the Blackwater Canyon area not being preserved at all, since it wasn't done federally?”

“been drinking alot of water lately.”

“LMAO!! did some horny toad ... I mean horned toad... just speak?? ;-)

Hey I just wanna make bacpac whine some more!!!”

“Lizs is such a demanding woman...animalistic urges...sheesh...better rest up more before I see her again.”

“Pathman - interesting link...thanks!

mtnman - I have also observed some inconsistencies in my limited experiences with environmental issues (not nearly as extensive as yours). Politics, emotions, and bad science can lead to bad decisions just like unchecked greed.”

“Afterall, I work at a sawmill. I'm concerned about the environment, but it needs to be done w/ some common sense (on business/government side and the protection side). For instance, I think that my boss and our loggers practice good forestry management, but it's true that many timber operations destroy the areas they work in. Not sure what to think on lots of other environmental topics. I have differing opinions w/ ea. situation.”

“it saved landfill space...I did my part...oh yeah...and I got rid of all my household trash too. It was unfortunate that the hair spray can went over the neighbors fence and started a small fire, but Khatru went over and peed on it and put it out...good doggy...Down here in southern Mo...we're good evvironmentalists...don't send it to the land fill ifn it don't gotta go...”

“What stikmon, no tires!?”

“Part of the Blackwater is included in the Mon NF and part is not. There is a timber company trying to get a permit to use an old Forest Service road to tote logs, but the Friends of Blackwater are fighting it because they would have to "improve" the road, which is now used for some ski touring and whatever.

There is no initiative to include the Blackwater as federal or state parkland at this juncture.

In general, national forests and parks are pretty much stabilized within their present boundaries. The WVHC and The Nature Conservancy have put together some innovative land transfers in the past decade that have added some significant parcels to the Mon NF, and some national parks have worked out land swaps to gain parcels of interest in exchange for parcels that have no interest, also gaining by donation. But their additions have probably been minimal.

The Canaan Valley NWF addition was a coup. It was part of a plan to build a pumped storage facility to generate electricity. That plan was shot down, so Byrd and a congressman engineered the sale. It includes what is probably the largest upland bog habitat on the East Coast, parts of which are open to day use via foot trails.

The Dominion Power wind farm will place a line of turbines across the ridge at the northern tip of Canaan Valley. They already have approval from the WV PSC for that project. So we gained 12,000 acres of prime wildlife habitat and a line of wind turbines to make their flight into the refuge interesting. May the most agile birds survive and multiply.

There are probably little land deals going on all the time around national parks and forests. Most do not involve sizable acquisitions, but most have some unique habitat that merits being protected.

As far as mountaintop removal goes for coal extraction, there really is no environmentally sound way of digging coal. It may make sense in terms of the ease with which the coal company can extract the coal, but it flat-out destroys habitat, which is just about the primary factor in species extinction. It has caused catastrophic floods and rockslide in West Virginia because it was not done right, and entire landscapes are obliterated.

I just wonder sometimes, when I contemplate these issues, why it is that the cities, where everything is already screwed up, have created such a power demand that we have to rape our mountains and forests. And how is it that we go into rural areas with promises of economic development when the plan is really rape and plunder?

I better stop. I'm depressing myself.”

“And he plays a mean mountain fiddle too. He's a national anachronism.”

“Locally, there is a guy who with a small group of people helped with NF multiuse plans for some of the forest in the Jemez mountains. After single tree logging, he got them to make the small logging roads into hiking and XC ski trails. I thought that was a pretty good deal.”

“Geobeet, thank you for all of that, I have to read it later more carefully; right now I gotta go make some dinner for the kids....”

“how many people on this board are concerned about protecting the environment,

Count me in! I have been involved in many ways for many days, months years and hours.

what you would do if you knew about a specific incident of possible harm to the environment?

One must check it out. If you can tell me more about what it is I can probably put you in touch with people who know about the issue.

and if in general, people feel the government is doing enough to protect the environment?
One problem is that government is composed of individuals who may or may not have integrity. Those who do have integrity are hampered by sometimes self serving bureaucrats and government process is cumbersome. I personally am not at all convinced that government will be effective at environmental protection. There is much evidence that the contrary is true in some cases. Some of my friends are biologists working for government organizations and it's not good news these days in some areas as far as the change in direction for some programs. I also suspect that tax payers (and I am a huge tax payer right now) are not getting value for their money as regards environmental research or protection.

Is anybody involved in any political/activist/citizen watch dog groups? Yes, I participate in local environmental groups. They are so local that you would not know their names.

bizs - if you wish to have more dialogue about Oregon issues please write to me directly at
lindasoutside@yahoo.com

One of the most inspirational messages I have heard in many long years has come from Bill McDonough and Michael Braungart. Website is coming.....


May all beings be happy.”