Winter hiking sleds

“About those hiking sleds, how long are the poles that connect you to the sled? I have heard that the shorter the better, but they have to be long enough so that your skiis don't hit them. I was thinking some fibreglass poles would work, if I could find them, then I thought of fibreglass push broom handles, about 5 or 5 1/2 feet long.

What do you think?”

“I think mine are about 5 1/2 feet long. I'll measure them when I get home tonight. I would not want to go much shorter than that. I don't know where you'll find broom handles that long... 'Giants R US' perhaps? ;o)

BTW - I'm going to build another one, but use metal poles and a larger sled. When I do, I will post several pictures of both sleds”

“The ones I used last year were 5 feet long. Two lengths each of fiberglass chimney cleaning poles.

Hey Klimber, I stopped by the 180 booth on Saturday and those shades I won retail for 90 bucks - cool! Except now that I know that I won't dare to wear 'em. I won't even say what my tab was at the end of the day but I picked up a pair of Fischer Rebounds before I left. Now for snow!

Pennsy I saw those water heater drain pipes at Home Depot - they look great but I didn't measure them. I looked around for female to female adapter, but couldn't find any, but if there was a way to connect them, that's an easy handle.”

“Can you ski with your sled?”

“http://telemarktips.com/Sled.html
and...
http://xray.bmc.uu.se/markh/skiing/pulka_english.html

The poles for my Mountainsmith are at work, I'll measure them tonight.


Skiing isn't that hard with a sled, but falling is a real pain in the a$$”

“Bob's sled
Arctic sled”

“Twigeater-$90.00!!!! Awesome. You gotta wear them at BSP.”

“I gotta an electrician buddy checking out fibreglass conduit for me. Maybe ....”

“They make fibreglass handles for rakes, tree pruners, shovels etc. Must be a place to get raw lengths of it.”

“I still say to check out fiberglass tent pole replacements. They even have the joints and shock cord provided.”

“Why couldn't you use PVC water pipe ? It is inexpensive, easy to work with, and available in various sizes. Does it become too brittle in the cold ?”

“hangman - I just built a sled using 3/4" pvc. I tested it with the temps in the upper 20's on light wet snow. It worked great, and "should" work great in colder temps, but I don't know for sure.

Here's some pics of it:
Pennsy's PVC sled 1
Pennsy's PVC sled 2
Pennsy's PVC sled 3

We've been talking about this on the Hike Maine Winter thread but I'm glad UK started a separate thread for it. We're sure to get some new ideas. Should be fun.

Twigeater - I'm going to try and stop by Home Depot tonight and ask about that coupler. They should have it somewhere.”

“Pennsy - I guess I was thinking about using nylon rope inside of a 3/4" PVC tube - using carabiners at both ends. This would allow alot of flexability if you crashed/rolled over. Your more rigid system may have benifits.”

“AmyG's sled used PVC tubes with a rope in it....she said they tend to twist and tip over during traverses. She later motified them. I use long broomsticks on my sled with carabiners attaching them to the sled.”

“Hangman --

I used nylon rope strung through 1/2 PVC with a caribbeaner clip at one end (to clip into waist belt) and tied off on the sled at the other end.

No matter HOW tight I pulled the rope . . .there was always TOO much FLEX. Both in the small diameter PVC and in the tension of the nylon rope (which has some stretch to it).

It did allow for easy break down for packing it into the car.

But, next time I will go stiff.

[just leave it alone folks . . .just walk away . . .we're talking about the rigidity of PVC here . .nothing else]

Saw a guy up at Zealand. He had a short, wide blunt base (i.e. NOT a kids sled). I am not sure what the base was. It was almost square . . . maybe 2.5 to 3 feet across and 3 to 3.5 feet long. Very stable. It had a scoop front and he had built up the sides and put a layer of Tyvek inside. He put all his gear in, then folded the Tyvek over it and strapped it down. Bullet proof.

For traces, or poles, he had very large diameter PVC. For rigidity. Probably 1.5 to 2 inch.

Not sure what he had for a waist belt.

My three biggest engineering problems were:

1. TOO MUCH flex in the poles.

2. My waist belt was an old fanny pack. It dragged and dragged and dragged. Going uphill I felt like it, and my windpants, were around my ankles. It created a miserable herky-jerky motion while skiing. More than once I got pulled of my feet backwards. The D-rings all broke and or pulled off from the drag weight. I ended up clipping the caribbeaner around the nylon waist belt. Heading uphill I had to stop frequenlty to pull up my pants and fanny pack, and tighten both.

3. Tracking. The final straw at 4:00 in the afternoon was tracking. We were headed on a trail that was level for as far as the eye could see . . .ACROSS THE FACE OF A SLOPE. My buddies sled rolled or slid down slope three times in 20 feet. The last time his bungee cords released and his load rolled out. I was reattaching his bungee and it released into my cheekbone. END OF THE DAY. Right there. High tension bungee cord shot to the face at the end of a cold day. That was it.

My friend had had load stability problems all day. On a wide open access road he was fine. Once in the woods on a trail, he rolled and rolled and rolled and rolled.

In the woods, .5 miles took us 2 hours. ON SKIS!!!!! We had planned on 4 mph. We repacked his load several times. [We had backpacks lashed into the sled with bungee cords. Snowshoes, shovel, and other misc gear lashed on as well.]

LESSONS:

My experience was fun, but we got nowhere (12 mile round trip from what was intended to be a 26 mile through ski).

I am convinced that too much FLEX was key to the failure (lack of progress. Key to:

1) rollovers
2) lack of tracking
3) herky jerky dragging on the waist belt


I will say this. Coming OUT of the woods. Downhill. We flew. We packed my friends load lower and more balanced. Down the old RR line path the sled tracked beautifully. In the woods the FLEX (yes, the flex) allowed the sled to toboggan through the curves and around rocks and trees like a bobsled. (occasionally it would coming riding up beside me like the sled did to Max in The Grinch who stole Christmas). we came out of the woods in 1 1/2 hours. What had taken us 6 hours to go in.”

“Okay now, my electrician buddy says he can get fibreglass conduit out of Boston. I'm probably going to go with 3/4" as that is what my push broom handle is, and it is a whole lot stiffer than PVC pipe. I may go up to one inch. Depends on how thick the pipes are. If it is schedule 40, 3/4" will be just fine.

I had to tell him what we were doing, I'll bet he's going to make me build him one also.

So now I'm trying to determine the optimum length for the poles. At a Warren Miller film last night, I saw some of the extreme skiiers using these sleds. Not enough detail, but they looked long. Then again, they were climbing barren snow covered peaks. Back on subject. The conduit generally comes in 10' lengths. If I can 20' or 12' I won't be throwing away so much conduit scrap.... So, I need opinions, how short should the poles be? I have heard 5 1/2 feet. That's 4 1/2 feet in the garbage.... Oh well....

Then I need solid attachment to the sled and to a hip belt....Come on every one, give!!! give!!! What have you done? What works? What doesn't? Pennsy, MTN Steve, and Lee have shared their experiences.... This could be good for all, come on share a little....

Hangman, the reservations with PVC pipe are that it is likely to be colder than a witches t!t out there, and if we are going downhill the pipes are going to flex under the load. Will they hold up? Probably....but.... We're gonna be a long ways from Home Depot.”

“Cool beans on coming up with the fiberglass conduit UK. I'll be interested how that works out.

The sled you picked up at Decathlon, was it called Big Foot, the Beast, or something like that? I found one today, 66" long and sturdier than the 4' walmart one.

Pole length... mine are 5 1/2' long. The poles used on the sled at www.mountkatahdin.net are only 5' long. They have pictures of the sled in action with ski's so perhaps 5' is fine.

I also found out what pipes they used for the sled. It's 3/4" waterheater drain pipe, prebent at 90 degrees with a threaded coupler on the end. I bought 2 pieces tonight with a 3/4" coupler to piece the 2 together.

I don't know when I'll get it built though. I'm still unpacking from 3+ packing days on the NJ/NY AT and I'm leaving thurs for the Mt Rogers trip. Stay tuned!”

“I am going to try to make my own backpacking sled this year.

I like the idea of using 21 inch snowshoes and haveing a sled with my backpack it in baecuase I then don't have to use such a large snowshoe becuase of how light I am.

8)”

“The Mountainsmith sled poles are a tad over 5'6".......

Whats the advantage of fiberglass or PVC over aluminum conduit?”

“oooh, gear talkin'! >:)

Pennsy I can't wait to ride in errr see your sled a this year's FYAO!

My sled is functional but there is a lot of room for improvement. I didn't spend a lot of time designing it to any McGyver degree...just a basic sled with the pull ropes strung through PVC traces to keep the sled from mostly-not running me over on the downhill.

If I were to touch it up a bit, an idea I have toyed with, I would put a cross bar of some sort between the traces to keep some stability (while still keeping some flex).

I am pretty happy with it, but I have not used it with skis - just snowshoes. I can't imagine how you could get the necessary traction on skis, when skiing on any level of incline.

Now I've got Dare to split the haul with me. We load everything in that sled, including firewood usually. We then split the hauling 50-50. He hauls it for the uphill half...
>:D

Seriously though, one good feature of a two person sled-share is that the person bringing up the rear can hold a line on the downhills to keep things steady.

Gear sleds rule in snowshoes! Have fun...
:)”

“I've skied with my sled with 5' poles, no problem.”

“Somebody say GEARSLED?”

“Wow! That looks great Pennsy!”

“Pennsy, it's "The work sled" by Paris, 5' long, 40% thicker. (It doesn't say what it is thicker than, presumably other sleds ;op ).
Those water heater drain pipes, what are they made of?

Mtn Steve, the advantage of PVC or fiberglass over aluminum or metal, is that it is cold out, and that metal will not be fun to have to handle, should you need to. Also, icing is more problematic on metalic surfaces. (Of course, none of us want to see icing conditions).

Okay.... I guess I'll have to do a mock up of a sled with 5' pieces of wood, duct taped to the sled and my waist, just to see if 5' is long enough. I'll try it with my skiis and snowshoes. Financially, I hope 5' is adequate, but if I need more, I'm not going to save a few cents here. #1 requirement is function.

As far as skiing uphill with a load, I don't think that will be much of a problem. As I have said before, I used to bundle 2 of my kids up in a toboggan, and drag them over hill and dale. And I wasn't using skins. Skiis with fish scales worked just fine.

One other thought, skiis vs. snow shoes. The guide at LL Beans said that you should figure about 1 MPH. He's done alot of this in BSP. That is a 12 mile trek. I have heard it said that 4 hours is about it for a day of snow shoing, but I'll bet we could do 6 hours. Uh... do you see where this is going? I don't want to say that you must use skiis, but....

Some suggestions here. If the snow is deep at all (even 4 inches), you can learn fast, literally, within an hour, and be skiing like a pro. Down hill, I used to kick off the skiis and walk if I felt to uncomfortable. Flats and uphill, you are far less likely to fall. Down hill can sometimes get away from you. Uphill technique is easy to learn, most people do a herring bone. Placing the poles in the snow is important. Always plant them at your heel, so you are always pushing with them.

Perhaps using both skiis and snowshoes. Does any one else have some imput on time and speed on both skiis and snowshoes?”

“hiking sleds??? sleds don't hike”

“They do if you take them with you Zay... er, Troll420.”

“I think that time and speed depends a great deal on your skiing ability and terrian. I hauled a Mountainsmith sled for about 40 days last winter, loaded with around 85 lb...I used both my skis and my snowshoes..when it got steep I put on the shoes, when it was rolling hills I used the skis, I suspect my average speed was around 2 mph with skis in easy terrian and about 1/1.5 with shoes in the steep stuff.

Boy I know what you mean about getting away from you on the down hill, bout took out a couple trees last year when I stopped for a rest, forgot where I was...

A few years ago we experimented with a couple short skin's on the bottom of the sled, worked great up hill in firm snow...we tested them in the spring so I can't speak for different snow conditions.”

“Thinking about this on my way to work this am, I realized my poles must be 6 feet not five. Perhaps I should measure them again. :)
I also bought 5ft wooden dowels last year, but didn't use them.

Klimber, I'm not even debating this with you or anyone else - snowshoes or skis is a personal choice. I'm bringing both, but will use what I feel comfortable with. If you feel you need to voice your opinion that I'm not using the proper equipment (i.e. the equipment that you prefer), I'm apt to swear profusely at you. So give it a rest already.”

“twigeater-
Thanks
Do any of you Mainiacs use waxable skis?

And hello to the veterans of FYAO'02!?!?
Those of us who are about to freeze our A$$es off, salute you!

Being something of a sch!thouse engineer myself, I am workin' things out in my head.
I have a plastic sled that the kids have used.
I am going to try rigging a SINGLE pole, maybe with a T at the sled.
I believe that would allow for good tracking.
But would the sled jack knife on me going down hill?
A two-fool team would probably be needed.”

“Wow!
Swearing at the other pack mules?
You're sounding like some kinda "mel-of-the-nor'east"!
This winter trip is gonna be fun!

Shoes and skis are the way to go.”

“Pennsy Hiker - I think the sled I use is called "The Beast" It is orange (it was also available in a camo color for $30 more). It is about 66" long and about twick as thick as a kids sled - has tie down points all around. I used it for the last two years with just a 8 foot (16' total length) rope that loops around my waist. Clipped on with a caribiner - so it doesn't slip down. I am going to try some PVC traces this year.
I think any discussion about traces has to figure the height of the person. A 6'-4" guy cannot use 5' traces, but a 5'-0" person probably could. Maybe the optimum length should equal your height ?”

“I'm learning a lot. I bought a kid's sled because it was recommended in all my books on McKinley. In the AAC's Alpine Climbing Guide by the guys at 'Climbing', they use rope traces attached to the backpack's straps so that it detaches with the pack if you fall into a crevasse. It is also attached to the rope.

The book suggests an old piece of rope that can loop under the front end as a brake. Mtnsteve's idea about gluing skins on the bottom is brilliant and I'm going to do it.

Going down or traversing, you let the sled swing downhill according to what I've read. I have no personal experience here and want to know what you guys think. I'll be trying things out in the 'Dacks and in the Whites this winter.”

“LOL @ Tom T...I try not to swear at people unless they invade my space... :)

I do tend to cuss at things or events though. However I'm working on that, since to my nephew the most memorable part of a hike up the Hunt Trail on Katahdin was that Auntie said the F word FIVE TIMES! (it was that darned rebar, lol)

A friend of mine had a drag rope on her sled - a rope with knots in it attached center front and she threw it under the sled on the downhills. Worked well.”

“I didn't like having the traces attached to my pack, and am going with a separate belt this time.”

“Then there are the "man harnesses" used by those British monkeys in Shackleton's time.

The Norweejins were much smarter about dragging stuff......get the dogs to do it, then eat the dogs as needed.”

“Hi Twigeater. I gotta agree with you, you gotta use what you feel comfortable with. I am bringing both, ready to change with the conditions. (Yes, I do prefer skiis, but we are talking, 55% to 45%, I could go either way).

Swear Profusely at Me!!!!! Ain't nothing I ain't ever heard, I work on construction sites!!!! LOL.

Actually, I'm only concerned that we can actually get from point A to point B by dark. This will probably be my longest winter hike, on snowshoes and/or skiis anyways. I have skiied and snowshoed farther, but that was to a waiting car or my house, without a pack. I guess I am a little concerned with getting thru the snow, with all this gear, in a decent time frame. Don't get me wrong, I am up for it, whether it's a blizzard or sunshine.

Anyways, I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I kinda want to know we can do it. Plenty of folks here have done this before, I lookin for some mileage/ time limits on the hiker/snowshoer/ skier. Should we plan on real early start, late arrival, or am I too concerned?

BTW, back to thread subject. Those fibreglass conduits are about $3.00 each, but mailingcosts are gonna kill me. Gotta find em a little more local. These poles are used on shovels in the winter and don't break. That's what I'm looking for to fully MacGuyver this sled....”

“Yeah, 12 miles with gear ought to be a real hoot!

I've upped my leg work already......steps in a six-story parking garage.

Head lamps would be a good idea.”

“I haven't used a sled much, once or twice in the Army, but I gotta ask, have you seen the drag brake on a tiller? could a bracket be placed on the REAR of the sled with a drag brake?”

“IN the Army?

I was a sled dog in the Mountain Infantry.”

“Of course time is a concern. Twelve miles is a long way. The plan is to leave early in the am, to allow plenty of time for equipment failure, weather and just getting there in general. It's been discussed before.

There's a lot to think about before the trip, but I didn't think we needed to worry about it just yet. We haven't discussed radios, perhaps using the buddy system and/or having a sweep team, medical emergencies, emergency routes, the nearest phone, first aid kits, required gear, etc, etc, details, [important] details...

I'm bringing a stronger headlamp than my little zipka for sure, and extra batteries.

I'm sure you've heard it all Klimber, that's not the point. If you want to go on ahead of people, go for it - get that wood stove cranking for when the rest of us arrive!
I'll volunteer for the sweep team.”

“You guys are skiing/snowshoeing 12 miles out to a cabin ? What happens if someone cannot make it (equipment failure, lost, etc) - are you bringing tents as an emergency bivy ?”

“The neat part of the 12 miles in is the fact that we don't have to set-up an outside camp when we get there. UK will have the stove going so all we have to do is crawl in.

I also discovered this past weekend that time of day is irrelevant. We started our NJ/NY AT hike at 10:50 PM.

I also think that skeetah-bait and the Klimber need to get separate pcs. ;o)

I also think it's time to go home. Adios!”

“we'll just hide the body - spring comes late in BSP, we'll be long gone...”

“You're correct Pennsy, we worry too much about daylight - myself included. I'm gonna stop doing that!
Course once the sun goes down it gets darned cold, but on the other hand I've always done night skiing and snowshoeing. Me thinks early morning is better, we'll be fresh while hiking in the semi-darkness and maybe see more critters.
Now, I hope I can find the trail in...lol!”

“The problem I had mostly with my old sled experiment was tracking on the traverses. The PVC pipes were ample enough at keeping the sled from rear ending me but the slide outs were troublesome. If I ever try to create one of those things again I'm gonna look into trying to rig up some 'fins, vanes, rudder' or whatever you want to call them to the underside of the sled. Both fore and aft to see if that helps in tracking. Something akin to what you might see on the underside of a water ski or a surf board. Anything that can cut into the snow and still easliy slid over hidden objects. I'll have to remember those ski skins next time also.

As anybody tried to modify an Old Yankee Clipper? Or make something that ran on rails to minimize friction.

One thing that could have made that experiment better would be to pull more with my upper body than my hips and waist. The fanny pack worked alright but a center back to shoulder area pull would have been better I think.”

“My post didn't go through last night???? Twigeater, I promise to relax, okay? Besides, after the last trip, you had all the bases pretty well covered. I should know there is nothing to worry about.

About me getting there first, and starting the woodstove, I don't plan to run away from anyone, the best part of these group hikes is the group. Besides, Pennsy has the saw for the firewood....

Back to the sled, I duct taped some wood scraps to the sled and got on my skiis and strided out. The poles, at my hips, and clearance at the sled, came to 4'8". (My skiis are 175 in length- Ithink that is some metric measurement) I tried 5' long and I am pretty sure that will be plenty long enough. So I'll get 2 ten foot fibreglass poles. What did every one else find they had for length? Just looking for confirmation here, but I guess it does depend on your weight and height as those determine your ski length.

Still gotta see what works to attch the poles to the sled and to me. One poster said too much flex was the problem. Perhaps drilling through a weightlifters leather belt and bolting them together????

I was just thinking, we are gonna have some gnarly hiking sleds here aren't we........ whoooo boy.”

“Klimber (like the title of another thread) to each his own hike - if anyone wants to snowshoe the entire 12 miles, who cares. That's all I meant.

I just put together the trip, I'm not the boss. Although I've got a bunch of thoughts about keeping us safe, anybody can yay or nay my ideas as well as add their own.

Pennsy's saw will definately be handy for blowdowns, I have one as well that I'll bring. Firewood is provided at the bunkhouses, cut, split and stove length, all ready for the stove. Usually it's on the porch, but at Roaring Brook we may have to get it at the wood shed.”

“Not the boss?!?

Then who the hell we gonna lean on when we're skeert?

We're all gonna die!”

“You might get a length of polyethyelene (I think that is what it is, the white rigid but somewhat flexible stuff) plastic 1/2" x 2 " or so to bolt across the front of the sled. That would keep the sled front rigid and give you something stable to attach the poles too. Rings work good for attaching the poles.”

“Yes we most likely will die, so be sure and wear your purdiest tutu, Tommy. You wanna look good when they cart off your frozen dead body dontcha!

>:D”