Tc2 Backcountry Outpost

“Just got off the phone with Frank Graham. We discussed the fact that some folks don't like the idea of the event being so close to the road. Asked him about backcountry outpost camps. Told me that an area out along Jacks Ridge Loop, and then turning on Blackhouse Branch -- that this area would be a good outpost camp for anyone who wanted the privacy.

The cost is $5/week for up to 6 people, and $10/week for up to 12 people. I will gladly pay this fee for you, should you desire.”

“Shoot, I'll even haul a large family-sized tent out there and stack some firewood if it will make some of you happy.

:)

Just let me know.”

“And by the way.. ROAD?.. that's a kind term. We are talking a NEVER traveled, backcountry GRAVEL road.

This ain't like along some paved highway.. LOL.. Have some of you even BEEN to the Big South National Recreation and River Area before?

(lol.. roads would not concern you. there are none.)”

“Some people send you $120.00 to
reserve 2 nites in a "lodge" for eight people-man, you would be out a whole $10.00!
There is a difference in reservation and a "donation"

Keep your money dude-just be sure to get mine back to me.

BTW I came across this looking for the post about the change of venue-

some people
aka
Josh Man”

“WTF?”

“This event is VERY confusing!”

“I think its gotten way to big for its own good.”

“growing pains”

“How do you limit it??

Invitation only??”

“It's going to be an awesome event. It's not going to be crazy. I've seen alot of the planning that has gone into this. Just show up and have a good time.”

“Just got a call from "Wiley's Outdoor sports" In Huntsville.

Seems they are interested in coming to the event, and adding to the Prizes/providing Gear demo's.

Gave them this site, and the link to Towndawg's website for the event.”

“is it time to have all of the previous TC2 threads deleted and just have one main thread on this event? I know TD has more info on TC2 on his webiste but not sure if it can handle the amount of traffic it might get.”

“"TC2 Backcountry Outpost"

Sounds like a good name for a flyer that goes out 2-3x a year to provide information on the event. :-)

Kinda like the tab sheet that comes out on the Chequamegon Fat Tire Fest, held each September. Not fancy, but it gets info out.

That event is so big and popular that at each Sept. race, entries for the next September's race are filled up. I think there's a limit of possibly 1,000 or 2,000 riders in the main event. (not that TC2 is quite THERE yet, I hope!!)

They also hold other events that people can readily sign up for, such as bike orienteering or the ever-popular Huffy toss.

I haven't been to that event, but understand from people who have that it's very well run. Then again, it's been going on since '83.

Something to aim for. :-)

Here's a link to their website:
Chequamegon Fat Tire Fest”

“why do i feel like i now the sunny side of the story but there is a dark side also?”

“ductape, it appears that "some people" sent in money expecting a "reservation" at the claris lodge, or whatever the name of the original location is, where they thought they would be sleeping inside. Now the event has been moved and the "large secluded tent" idea is deemed unworthy since it doesn't come with a house elf.

So "some people" want their money back.”

“why can't "some people" stay at the lodge. Lodge or not, I planned on pitching my tent anyway. If "some people", and I don't want those folks to think I'm saying that in a mean way.... just quoting, need to stay indoors, I'm sure they could somehow, right?

Anytime a large group gets togheter, there's gonna be problems. I just hope if Josh Man is PO'd, that he'll remember the good time we had last year, and the good time HE had last year, and it still can be the same this year.”

“Hey hyway-
Get your facts
up to date-Some people were involved from the get go-You know BH (before Hyway)
So the fact of the matter is that some people sent funds to people assumuing that a lot of people,not some people might get get have a nice place to have Tc2..
Some people probabl would not have slept inside anyway-
Som people don't like being taken advantage of-
some peopl might call what happened internet fraud if they were inclined to-
some people have not yet tried to destroy something some people have started-
Some people have been very patient to this point...”

“ahhhh, i see.
im not really expecting anything out of this (cause i don't know what to expect) so i won't be disappointed like "some people". hehe, that's funny.”

“when r u going down there ductape?”

“friday after i get off work.
am still trying to weasel my way out of work for the whole day though. when you leavin?”

“it's understandable that "some people" would be unhappy with the new arrangements. it's also understandable that "some people" who weren't happy with the prior arrangements are now happy with the new arrangements.
what im trying to understand is where all these bad vibes are coming from. i admit i don't know every detail but it seems like the thing just got too big for the place that was originally gonna be big enough and it had to be dealt with. am i wrong? lord knows i have been before, but that's my understanding. it might not be optimal but it's life, right? or not, maybe? hell, i dont' know.”

“I'm leaving Thursday night, w/ special guest. We'll leave a spot for you in the HMWH Clubhouse. Just look for the sign.”

“if i can get outta work, im leavin thurs too.”

“special guest = reese witherspoon?”

“Josh man, I have no dog in this hunt. I was just summarizing the thread as seen by a bystander. You are the one airing dirty laundry online. Town dog never mentioned you by name, you did that yourself. Now if he is refusing to get you back your money after a change of venue, then I can see your point. I didn't get that that was the case from your post.”

“special guest = reese witherspoon?"
tarabull
06:56:46 PM
11/25/02

No, I meant like "special olympics" kind of special. Email me, I'll tell ya who it is.”

“LOL. Not nice!”

“You're right, I shouldn't poke fun at corky.”

“is it ice tea? are you givin him a ride?”

“buddha...i have ideas for the HMWHC tent...you plan on doing anything along those lines?...”

“lmao BB! heehee....but really, not nice. =}”

“ ITS THE DANCING CHILI36”

“Hey, is 7,100,000 scoville units alot?”

“For the record, I have never refused to refund anyone their money. Katibug was the first to pay I think, and the first to ask for a refund. Joshman has asked for a refund also, and when I offered to mail him $120, he told me to just pay it after the event. I thought the issue was closed, but for some reason, Josh (who I am really confused by his anger about all this).. is very mad at me.”

“And I have no doubt that we will have some SHOW UP, and not knowing the venue was changed, will want their money back when they get there.

We will have vast others who plan on paying at the door. I did everything I could to get all the money back when the NPS called me and asked me to move the site from Charit Creek to Appalossa Field. I posted on backpacker.com and thebackpacker.com, and sent a email to everyone that I had email addresses for that had sent in money originally.

Josh has been working a lot of hours, and by the time he got the email, all those discussions were done, and we had moved on, and elected to go ahead, sending in $850 to the National Park Service.

Now, like I said before. Yes, there will be some who will grumble and say I didn't handle this right, or did this wrong.. but you know what?.. I did the best I knew how.

I learned a long time ago that the only thing consistent in this word is change -- meaning that people change their mind, or bow out, or somehow believe certain events even tho all the facts are shouting to the contrary.

I know there are a few individuals on TT that are convinced that somehow I am making money out of this deal, or lied to cover my incompetance.. or gawd knows what.

I really don't have time for their lunacy. We got a bunch of folks coming to this thing from what I can tell -- and I have to be honest: I believe 50 as easily as 500. I really do not have a clue.

I have a good staff, and it is all coming together. When I see you, I will remind you of what good friends you obviously are.”

“Now, with all that said.. can we move on please? Do you know for example that porta-potties are $55 each, and we will most likely need at least 4? I am writing a check for that.

I realy don't want to belabor anymore this whole issue. I offered the backcountry outpost as an idea to help settle those who felt slighted. We can refund money, we can find an alternative. $10 had nothing to do with it. That misses the point entirely. The point was that I knew Josh was upset, and I wanted to help make it right. I knew he had planned on coming (even tho he recently told me that he was not going to be able to come due to work obligations), and since he told me to hold his money until after the event, I wanted to somehow come up with a good alternative.

Thus, I figured I could haul a large family style tent out into the wilderness, split and stck some firewood, and give his group a place completed secluded from everyone else since that is what they wanted. The plan backfired. Now I got Josh sending hate mail and making negative posts on this board, when I had already made out the check in the first place.

There are others, I don't even know for sure who hates me, but they are out there. My guess is they will continue to come out of the woodwork like mice in the night. Life goes on.”

“Josh Man, you say you were involved from the get go - maybe you have a problem with who is making the decisions? Maybe you would make decisions differently? From observing the entire situation, it looks like this is a CONTROL issue more than anything.”

“Fun, Fun Fun, til her daddy took her T-bird away.”

“I realize TD is not making money on this. To me the question isn't, is he or isn't he. The question is why shouldn't he. If I spent a couple of hundred hours of my time, I'd want to make some money. I wish/hope TD DOES profit from this. He deserves it.

Just my 2 cents.

PS. I realize this doesn't have to do with the discussion directly above.”

“Well, it's a not-for-profit event. There will be no money going in my pocket, other than expenses, and only then after numbers and accounting all match and everyone seeing my invoice data, etc..

We have said all along that any profit would be donated to the CTC, and that is still, (and will be always) my intent. I want to see the Cumberland Trail a reality.

To me?.. success in this venture would be to see a donation to the CTC in the amount of $500 from a bunch of 'people on the internet'.. joined only by TrailTalk and a love for our sport and interest.

But I thank you, John for your kind words.”

“"why do i feel like i now the sunny side of the story but there is a dark side also?"


Luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuke!

Come over to The Dark Side!



(I think this is a prime example of why they don't make sausage where people can watch, <GRIN>)”

“I more than anyone know the time that Towndawg has put into this event-
My frustration came from the fact that that I was not informed via e-mail or by telephone-Chris has both.
As to the "donation"-when the call went out that TD needed to place a deposit for The Lodge-I sent 24% of what he was requesting to help secure the site.It was with the understanding that myself and those that were planning to attend
would have a bunk if desired.
I have not worked nearly the hours TD has,but I have put a lot of my time into this thing too. I solicited prizes from many-secured a bunch,all in the name of Tc2.
I tried to keep this off Trail Talk
and get some of my questions answered with Td- This did not really happen-Td did try to call once it came to my attention and we bounced e-mail back and forth.
My biggest question still remains unanswered- When the Ranger called and the event moved-Why and how did the price rise?If he wanted the thing to move,they should have
made some sort of consideration-hell it is for charity.
It is one thing for a private entity to require payment-$15.00 a head-
I doubt that sites are that much per person.
What exactly are we paying for?What will the rangers provide beyond the spot?
When I came upon this thread-it pissed me off,Td had sent me an e-mail stating "almost"verbatim about the back country sites-and the offer to pay- Hence my rant..
I responded politely-but to the negative-and stated at that time that I would in fact like my money back-after the event-and before any donations were made. But----
Towndawg never offered to mail me the money.
I wope with all my heart that this thing will come off to everyones satisfaction-it has been no secret that I was not going to be able to go-but the others involved were-
I planned to let my portion just go to the cause-but when things changed so radically-the rest of the group bailed out.
I don't mind helping- but Td was perfectly clear I was not financing
Tc2-
I want this thing to be great-and most here are great but I really don't care to pay for everyone else to camp.I am still not sure what if anything people will be asked to pay.

To state this clearly-
THIS IS TOWNDAWGS DEAL AND HE DESERVES THE GLORY!!!

I am truly sorry for my ranting and b*tching to all.

Hyway-to you a big apology.
Bhudda-it was fun-”

“JOSH MAN, you were right in the first place. It was none of my business. I should have just read the thread and moved on.”

“$120 refunded in the mail. I gave you that offer from the very beginning. You even sent me the post office box to mail it to, and told me quite clearly that you wanted no further contact in the future whatsoever.

Josh, why are we talking about this still? Do you really want me to continue to post about this?

11/4/02: "Tell me .. where you want the money -- mailed to your street address, or given to the National Park Service. If you are just hearing about this .. then tell me to make Titanium Chef 2002 a reality, or tell me to start writing refund checks."

11/4/02: "So what do I do now? I have the street address and phone number of every single donation, and Charit Creek Lodge is refunding the money completely. We can cancel the entire event -- call it a bad dream -- tell everyone who was planning road trips and who has already purchased plane tickets to forget it -- stay home? Or we can take the National Park Service up on their offer."

07/04/02: "Common sense would make my goal to reserve the entire Charit Creek Lodge for the site of the annual backpacker's challenge cookoff impossible. ... I have less than $100 to go. If you want to contribute, you all know the name, street address, telephone number and email addy by now. If you don't, then please consider coming to Big South Fork National Recreation and River Area and competing".

06/29/02: "There is no need to sleep on the ground. Through a special arrangement with Charit Creek Lodge, we can utilize the indoor camper rate of $14.00 plus tax per person. We will pack in sleeping bags or bedrolls and prepare our own meals, but you want to use the kitchen, and may do so at no extra charge."

06/17/02: "Some folks will want the cabins, other will want the tent. We have BOTH. If I don't secure the CABINs then we will have to share this site with whoever else might show up. Personally, (knowing us?) I figured we wanted to whole place to ourself."

06/14/02: "the competition is on SATURDAY.. but most folks will spend the entire weekend.. the $14 rate includes all weekend."

==================================

Now quoting you, and answering your questions:

"It was with the understanding that myself and those that were planning to attend would have a bunk if desired."

Absolutely. My intent also. You and I said all along that we might re-sell all the spaces back out to anyone who wanted them, if the original owner told us in writing that they would not be using them.

".. have not worked nearly the hours TD has, but I have put a lot of my time into this thing too.."

Yes sir you did. Your name is in the program brochure that SmokyGirl did. You were on all the distributions of all the emails that were generated when the Tc2 staff was formed. We even went to stores together, Josh. I counted you as a really good friend.

"When the Ranger called and the event moved, why and how did the price rise?"

The $850 is the standard price for a multi-day event held within Big South Fork National Recreation and River Area. I thought, (stupid me) that when Frank offered to let us "use the field" as he told me over the phone that it was going to be FREE. Stupid me.

The $761.04 from Charit Creek Lodge was eight persons in six historical buildings for a total of 48 spots, with the understanding that we most likely would never use the cabins, didn't not need turn-down linen service, nor did we plan on using the kitchen facilities and did not expect the Lodge to provide meals.

I don't know if paying $850 for a forty acre site will be the norm for TC events -- I just know that with about 30 days to go before the event, there was no way I could change the site AND THE PARK TOO.

Geez guys, why do I think I sent out all the emails and all the posts on the Internet. I was torn, and wanted to make the right decision. It wasn't like I had some steering committee at the time to help me sort it all out. So after getting several phone calls, email repsonses, and Internet posts regarding the event -- everyone unaminously told me to let this thing ride -- wherever it wanted to go, and they did not want their money back.

(Remember, Katibug bailed out early, long before any of this. She wanted a smaller venue, smaller event. No problem. I just knew that if we had over fifty people last year -- Guess what, we might hit 300 this year.)

And Josh?.. I did try to call you, I did email you. I am sorry that you don't think that happened, and I sincerely apologize to you personally for that heartache. Do you think I relish in making a good friend hate me?

What do I get for $850? We get what we wanted all along -- a safe secure location, where families are welcomed and friends are expected. We have a head ranger, and several additional rangers who will be patrolling the area. We have access to administrative services, parking help, office supplies.. but primarily -- this is the fee that the NPS sets, and I can't change it, nor negotiate it.

I don't want you financing Tc2, Josh. I just want you to stop all this negativism.

"THIS IS TOWNDAWGS DEAL AND HE DESERVES THE GLORY!!!"

No sir. It's not. It's your deal, and James' deal, and everyone else who breathed life into it. We have the possibility of seeing an annual event being taken over and managed by the local chambers of commerce that goes way beyond my involvement whatsoever. If Tc2 happens next year, I won't even be a part of it. Tennessee Department of Tourism will take that lead, and all I will have is the pleasant memory that somehow, a few years ago, a few good friends were talking on the internet and came up with a really nice idea.

Ok.. there it is. I posted, I answered, I am done. Crucify me on this board if it makes all of you happy. I have better things to do than to hear your rants about how I screwed up and should have done it this way or that.

6/17/02, 8:50:50PM: "See?.. This is the BEST place. You guys will love it. All I am asking is that you help me support the idea. We are getting use of the entire lodge at a STEAL!!.. I just dont have $500 right now guys. Please. You know what to do. You won't even miss the donation."”

“Dammit, who is going to bring fungus soup this year?!”

“I would BB, but I just cleaned out the toejam from under my nails. Maybe next year.”

“hehe(nailing td to cross)
dude, don't take my dark side comment personally. it was just a joke. i think you knew that already though.
btw, check your mail. im bout to send you some.”

“No Towndawg-
I don't want you to post any more about this subject...
The spirit of this thing has gone to hell for me-
You guys have great time-I know you guys will.
Give the Ranger hell-I had a feeling they might be the bad guys.

Don't send the check to me-donate it to the Nature Conservancy-

I truly hope this will be a good time or all.

Chris-see ya in the woods some time
we will discuss this over some some peach wine...

See you guys-
This will be my last posting.”

“See you guys-
This will be my last posting


on this subject, right joshman?”

“On a more positive note....

I just sent a certificate of insurance to Frank Graham at BSF...

He will mail the permits to TD today.”