Farewell to Privacy

“Here's another scenario:

A high profile crime case like the sniper case. Imagine this tool being used to interview everyone who had made a purchase of bushmaster .223 rifle in the past three years... "Please surrender your rifle for ballistic testing, Mr. Doe"

And the public wouldn't bat an eye at that because they just want the horrible sniper shootings to stop.


I think everyone here would agree that a scenario like this would not be circumvented by a "privacy officer".”

“I,m convinced my toilet seat is bugged.Each time I sit to warm it,I hear gov't intel splashing around below.”

“CASH ONLY!!!!!”

“There was an interview on "All Things Considered" last night with a guy who was picked up for questioning because his hobby is photographing trains.

Train photography is, and has been for a long time, a legitimate hobby despite what others of us might think. They call themselves rain fans and they line up with schedules at likely spots along rail lines to catch a photo of the 8:32 blowing through.

Of course, now the railroads have been identified as terror targets due to dangerous freight they carry. So engineers have been told to report people photographing trains - a precaution that sounds prudent given the threat warnings.

So these guys were snarfed up by railroad police around 4 p.m., and ultimately questioned by FBI members of the Terror Task Force. They were held for five hours, questioned, and finally released around 9 p.m. to make their way home.

It was an experience the guy would rather not have gone through, to be sure. But he didn't fault the authorities. He said he understood they did what they had to do.

Two thoughts emerged from this story. First, investigations often snare innocent people who are questioned and released. We have no presumption that we will not be detained and questioned in the course of our lives. That is one reason for the presumption of innocence. Investigations often snare innocent people. These days, the innocent people usually get released without further ado.

Occasionally, innocent people have to prove their innocence in court. Some even end up being convicted despite being innocent. Justice is not perfect.

But I think most investigations quickly move on and the innocents are released.

The other thought was that the man said he understood why he was picked up. People often voluntarily submit to questioning, and people often voluntarily give up constitutional rights in an effort to cooperate with authorities.

During the sniper episode, many vehicles were stopped and traffic held up for long periods while police searched vehicles and questioned drivers. Most of those people submitted in a cooperative sense, understanding the reason for the searches.

There are, to be sure, always questions about our rights and liberties. We make assumptions based on what we perceive as normal times. During periods of threat or crisis, norms go by the wayside.

The Bushmaster analogy doesn't work because it was one of the weapons suspected, if not the major suspect. You can bet that authorities combed records of gun sales in an effort to find something, and we would have faulted them if they had not. There never was a report of any person being identified as a target in the investigation on that basis alone. There were suspects detained for questioning for a number of reasons. They benefited by the fact that the true snipers killed again while they were in custody. We'll never know what might have happened to them if the snipers had stopped and gone home to wherever.

The question that comes to my mind in all of this is whether we fear perceived abuse of power by our own government more than we fear the real threat posed by serial killers or terrorists who continue to profess the intent to kill us.

There is at least the element of doubt with our own government. There is no doubt what Osama bin Hiding and his cohorts want to do to us.

Americans are by nature suspicious of government, and rightfully should be. We look around the world and see government by fiat of dictators. We see people who have no rights. We live in a country where rights are defined and where we participate in government, however imperfect the process might be.

We have the right to react, to petition our legislators, to ultimately vote the b@st@rds out. We have the right to question, to discuss issues (as we are doing here), and to act on our principles.

Indeed, it is our responsibility to participate in government, and it is a shame too few people take that responsibility seriously.

This discussion is a valuable part of the process. I do share concerns about the degree of privacy or freedom I am willing to surrender, but I also think there are times when we need to cooperate with investigations or security measures.

Frankly, if some of you knew how much information about you is already available to government, you would be appalled. The information has been available for decades now, and people are not being drug off to jail for no apparent reason. And that is due to a lot of reasons: we haven't committed crimes, we pose no threat to national or local security, the Constition protects us from unreasonable search or seizure, and ultimately abuses of power have been detected and punished either before the law or at the polls.

But that does not preclude suspicion, or vigilance. The one thing I will agree on here is that if we would turn our heads, some SOB would take all of our rights away. That is the true value of doubt and suspicion, and adversarial politics.

Our system of government is strong because of an elaborate set of checks and balances - branches of government checking one another, the electorate keeping tabs, the political process, and the centrist pull that draws the pendulum from right to left and back again.

Whatever we might be, we are not extremists, at least collectively.

Between the America Taliban on the religious right and the socialist and anarchistic fringe on the left, most Americans are centrists and abhor the extremes. The question we always face is whether the party in power represents the center or the fringe, and whether our leaders are doing the best job or whether somebody else has a better answer.

I don't care which party is in power, abuse is a constant potential, whether it is the abuse of an elitist power base, the abuse of an ignorant mob, or the abuse of a party that has too much power.

Two things we have always done as Americans is disagree and be willing to die for the rights of those with whom we disagree. It's an interesting thing.”

“Geo, I heard the report on NPR last night too. I wouldn't have been as forgiving at the nice trainspotter being interviewed. Four hours is too long to be detained for doing absolutely nothing wrong, just because someone else views you as suspicious, IMO.

Back to the database they are talking about creating:

WHY DO THEY NEED THIS?”

“Geo, I heard the report on NPR last night too. I wouldn't have been as forgiving at the nice trainspotter being interviewed. Four hours is too long to be detained for doing absolutely nothing wrong, just because someone else views you as suspicious, IMO.

Back to the database they are talking about creating:

WHY DO THEY NEED THIS?”

“Err, double your fun?”

“Double entendre?”

“Ah, the Holy Terror Task Force. Despite all the stern declarations from our fearless leader LOOK at what's happening. To me, it looks like MISSION ACCOMPLISHED for al-Qaida. All that a campaign of terror sets out to accomplish has been made manifest.

It has been noted that we occasionally will have to prove our innocence. I suspect that "innocent until proven guilty" was a pipedream all along. Have any of you ever been picked up and asked to provide an alibi? If our freedoms are surrendered so easily, I wonder if we really had them to begin with. How many of these are just pretty words with no basis in reality?

When a drug dealer (or other Evil Person) is carted off to jail because the Constitution is 'slightly circumvented' and no one pitches a holy fit because "it's just some druggie" is missing the point entirely. Instead, people complain about legal technicalities when an alleged criminal is not convicted... They have No Concept that those legal technicalities are the backbone of this nation (if it has one). It is a constant struggle and it was so LONG before 9-11.

I wonder about who is being held incognito in this country. It reminds me of Chile and the junta of Augusto Pinochet. People simply disappeared.

But we suspect them of being associated with terrorists... so it's okay, apparently. And if you disagree, Ari Fleischer says, "Some people better watch what they say..."

Doesn't that CHILL your blood --- just a little?


The database... Well, I wonder about that also, but the gov't cannot analyze the data they Already have coming in. You know about all of the red flags that were missed re: 9-11. This sounds like they are gearing up for the Olympic Triathlon before they can WALK.

I have no idea what they think they will accomplish with this.

They did prosecute the IRS agents who were accessing peoples' records illegally... but what percentage did they catch? Government doesn't have a good record of protecting data from hackers and crackers either, so the data will be at risk from without And from within.

Larry Ellison (Oracle) made a big show of saying he would provide software free of charge... for the first 5 or 7 years... then it will be the Information Technology Cash Cow of all time.

On top of all the constitutional questions, we're going to go broke funding this monstrosity.


(that was a little more than 2¢, wasn't it? <GRIN>)”

“Yeah, ya owe the pot another nickel...”

“BTW.... Joe Lieberman has ZIP credibility as far as I'm concerned. He sold out to to accounting industry and blocked efforts to separate auditing and 'consulting' functions in the ealy 90s that could have prevented or at least lessened the impact of Enron and the like which have cost BILLIONS.

If he had been sworn in as Vice President and the Special Prosecutor statute hadn't been changed, he'd probably be in jail by now.”

“ka-CHING!

LOL”

“Pot for a nickel?”

“What's the statute of limitations on that?”

“You wimps are just scared that you'll get caught cheating your employers by posting liberal tripe on the internet from work.”

“Hey guys!

The U.S. Border Patrol is now stopping cars at check points at random locations within 25 miles of the Canadian border. In my area, that means that federal officers can set up shop anywhere in Detroit, Downriver or suburbs and just stop everyone.

Won't that be nice the next time I'm running late for an event: "Sorry, sir, we must make you late for the wedding so that you can prove you are a US citizen." Geez.”

“Just tell 'em you're a friend of bacpac's, LOL”

“Excuse me... "bacQac"



HAHAhahhahahahaa....”

“Why do you think I like backpacking. Your privacy is already gone. Backpacking is the only time that it tough for the government to track you, unless you use your cell phone. You know those CIA spy satellites that circle the earth. The spy satellites do not shut off when they cross the United States. I know of two local prosecutions that were won because the prosecutors pulled up military surveillance photos with high enough resolution to read a license plate.”

“Seems like some folks are giving John Poindexter a taste of his own medicine.”