i dont mind hunting...but

“Also, not all hunters are just running around like mad men shooting at every damn thing. Please understand that point Tom.”

“He he, ha ha

Somebodies cookin' up some jerky stew!

newgirl, you hunt?

Whoa!”

“I hunt with a Pentax K 1000 (it's a camera, for you NRA freaks that think I'm talking a new gun that you missed the write-up on in American Hunter) And I guarantee the thrill I get from watching a beautiful animal graze 50 yards away, look up at me, then continue to eat until full, and finally gallop gracfully away, is a bigger thrill than you get from blasting it's leg off and watching it try to hobble away while you get on your Honda Sportsman to go tow it to the truck bed that you shot it from.”

“newgirl, there are plenty of private hunting lands in the East. Of course, you have to join a hunt club or pay the landowner, but if that land ever became more profitable as a Townhome development site it would be bulldozed down faster than you could say "homeless bambi". Not the case with the thousands and thousands of acres of public Gamelands. They just sit there like god intended. And on the days when Hunting is not allowed or out of season, there isn't a better place to spend a few quiet, people free hours”

“I love to kill animals. The more blood the better. What are you gonna do about it? I eat what I kill and love KILLING. KILL, KILL,
BLOOD, BLOOD, DEATH, DEATH.

Oh the thrill!

Eat me raw!”

“Where's that rascal Violin?

Leave it to that joker to stir up the hornet's nest and go off to lunch.”

“Hunting is so cruel. Nature is so much more compassionate. Wolfs and lions (of the mountain affiliation) are so careful to kill deer in the least painful way. Winter starvations is such a kind way to die also. Like us, all deer will die sometime. We should let nature do the deed in its own compassionate ways.”

“Wow, Rox, I'd be careful in your words. That's quite a leap to say you get a bigger thrill taking pictures than a hunter does.”

“I'm tired of the same old argument "my hunting fees pay for your land"- I don't want your money. I want my nature to be the way it natural, not the full of sounds of missed gunfire and the sight of fat orange clad men(or women) riding around in there gas guzzling 4x4's with a bottle of the cheapest beer they could find hanging from their lip”

“Yeah. I really doubt rox receives a heroine-like rush to the senses like a good killing produces.”

“And I want a world where trees are made out of chocolate and rivers flow full of beer.

Get your head out of your ass and live in teh real freaking world.”

“In Ohio, there are programs to use deer meat to feed folks who are in need. Hunters do alot of good, some are dumba$$es who get wasted and shoot stuff, it's just like any other group in society. They go their way, I go my way, no big deal, until, of course, one shoots me.

Rodney King is weeping at the sight of this thread.”

“For those who want to dismiss me as a troll who enjoys stirring the pot, http://www.msue.msu.edu/wildlife/mood/techniques.htm" target="_blank">read this.

Pay particular attention to the section on the Deer Range Improvement Program (DRIP).

Now why has there been a population explosion so bad that they’ve had to pay hired guns to come into Metro Detroit (as smiley girl pointed out)?”

“Go find your family of trolls in the appalachians, and then tell me which world to live in!”

“So the world should adapt to your beliefs rox, because your way is the right way? Hey, as long as you're happy...

As far as all land should be public land (therefore providing more land for you to hike on) how do you propose that would work? Wouldn't that mean no fences? So how would you keep your sheep from running away?
And what about the land your house is on? So anyone can walk all over your front yard anytime they want or what? Or did you mean all land except yours? What?”

“Why is it that in some states like Wisconsin, they require you to shoot like 5 or 6 Does (female deer) BEFORE you can shoot a Buck? Is this increase in population due to the increase in the shooting of Does?

In Wyoming, on National Forest, you can only shoot Bucks. Why is that? Could it be that one Buck can impregnate many Does? Could it be that if you reduce the amount of Bucks that you also reduce the amount of Does that get impregnated?

Also, there are plenty of ranchers and landowners who will NOT let you hunt on their property. They are also being subsidized for damage to hay crops due to the increased number of deer and elk feeding on their land.”

“Emotionally, I'm not fond of the idea of hunting. On the other hand, while living in New Hampshire I got to know a number of people who relied on hunting to keep their families well fed. Secondly, I really can't see how hunting an animal is worse killing one in a slaughter house.

I can respect Rox's view point. I think Rox's lifestyle is admirable, but Newgirl also makes a lot of sense to me.

It's inconisistent to say that hunters are murderers, but meat eaters are innocent.

LOL Lee! I knew you would find a time to get in a shot!”

“Here's an idea: How about discarding the hunting propaganda and employing a tactic rarely used by hunters: the truth.”

“If all land were public there would be more land for ALL to hike on. My fences have gates that everyone I know has figured out how to operate. The sheep however have not figured out the gates so they stay in, while anybody else has free roam of my farm; including my front yard. I actually was including my land.

As far as my happiness, it is not contingent upon hindering others, or the slaying of beautiful wildlife.”

“"Killing male deer increases the herd by causing the females' internal reproductive mechanisms to go haywire, resulting in the births of twins and triplets. Any wildlife biologist not associated with the hunting community will verify that this is fact."

Violin, (extra bored today?),that's just nonsense! =)I want to see those biologist's reports please. The only time does birth twins and triplets is when the environmaent is extra kind to the deer and they're fat and happy, and don't have hard winters to contend with. There have to be bucks around to knock up the does, silly. Most of the deer get the mating done before or during hunting season, so pray tell...do these does have ESP and somehow know how many bucks they'll be missing after the hunt...so they chase the bucks looking for yet another lay before they're all shot?! LMAO!!!

The Metro parks in SE MI had to hire guns to thin the herd in the park because it's too close to homes to allow hunters. The herd was so huge the deer were ruining the vegetation (don't the plants have rights too?) and running out onto one of the busiest highways in Metro Detroit constantly. Wounded deer in a public park=trouble.

Rox, nice attitude. Nothing like a bit of broad brush labeling.

Once your gun is paid for what are the costs....$3 for a tag, $10 for freezer paper and tape and a permanenet marker to label the packages with? Oh, $5 for a box of bullets, which will probably last 2 seasons at least. $18 would buy 6# of chemical laden, over processed ground beef. The average deer provides around 40# of meat. I'm really disapointed we didn't get a deer this year. I'll miss the venison.”

“I doubt any one in New Hampshire has to hunt to stay well fed. Also it is more expensive to hunt than to BUY non-animal foods, and even less expensive to grow that food or raise the animals for their products (dairy, honey, wool, are just some examples.)”

“Okay...how much did the land you raise your bees and sheep on cost? Do you think, honestly, that a family in suburbia can possibly raise enough food on their 160x80 lot to feed 4?! It takes at least five acres. Do you use homemade farm tools? Have a tractor? =) I'd like a reevaluation of how cheap it is to live off your farm, please.”

“I've spent plenty of time with hunters, I have yet to find ONE that processes their own meat! It's costs about $60.00 for a butcher to do it. So your $18 plus the $60 equals $78. $78/40=$1.95/lb. I know you can get chemical laden meat for less than $1.00/lb”

“If you want to reevalute my farm, remember my farm feeds me and at least 1 other all YEAR!! How long can you live off your 1 deer. Eat venison everyday, every meal, and then tell me how much you miss it.”

“Sass –

Read this report about the http://www.msue.msu.edu/wildlife/mood/techniques.htm" target="_blank">Deer Management Techniques in Michigan. It was written by Justin S. Hall, a Wildlife Extension Agent with Michigan State University assigned to work with the Wildlife Division of the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.

According to his report, the deer population in Michigan was much lower in 1971 before the DNR decided to change Michigan's "old forest" situation by instituting the Deer Range Improvement Program. The DRIP clear-cut 1.2 million acres of forest to increase the deer herd to promote the ‘sport’.

http://www.msue.msu.edu/wildlife/images/mdnrde4.gif" alt="">

http://www.msue.msu.edu/wildlife/images/mdnrde5.gif" alt="">

http://www.msue.msu.edu/wildlife/images/mdnrde6.gif" alt="">”

“The figure I saw for hunting accidents in the US is 130 fatalities per year.

http://tlc.discovery.com/convergence/extremesurvival/odds.html”

“Yes, we processed every deer my husband ever shot, ourselves. It's not difficult at all, just takes a bit of time. $60 is too much to pay someone else to do it for us, plus how can one be sure the processor's set up is sanitary or that you get back your own meat? You've just found TWO that process their own meat. =)

I don't care for ground ankles, and I try to stay away from the fattier cuts. $2.99 a pound is what I pay for ground sirloin when it's on sale. When I can't afford it or don't have any in the freezer, we don't eat it. Probably only eat meat 2-3 times a week, at most. One deer feeds us for 1 year.”

“But you'd still be allowed to fence in public land? By what right? Not everyone thinks hiking is as great fun as we do. You have a very selfish attitude.”

“The blue lines are the 1972 deer population targets. These were revised in 1999 (dashed lines).”

“Violin, got to run and get ready for work, can't read the report right now BUT, looking at the charts....I wonder how much effect the population rise/sprawl has had on the increased herd size? Deer seem to thrive where people are, and the hunting areas decrease considerably. I'll read that report tonight, after work....thanks for posting it!”

“I'm not impressed by reports of how hunting leads to creation of clearings in the wild. Compare that to the meat industry or farming, or to other recreational activities such as down hill skiing.”

“Sass-1 deer does not feed you for a year. 1 deer is enough deer meat to last you a year, but you consume all kinds of things (ie fruits, vegetables, pasta, rice)that I grow or trade for.
OK so now I've "heard" of 2, yea, Imagine my exitement!”

“Twigeater- putting a fence on public lands is not wrong; so what right do I need?”

“Rox: "Also it is more expensive to hunt than to BUY non-animal foods, and even less expensive to grow that food or raise the animals for their products."

No. It may be more expensive for a lot of hunters. But there are folks who own a rifle and live in the North Country of New Hampshire who can walk or take a short ride to places where it is legal to hunt and can take down a deer for next to nothing. A lot of people who are on the margins economically experience a drop in income and an increase in expenses (due to heating)in the winter. Being able to put some dear meat in the freezer provided security, autonomy, protein and variety in their meals.

People can either dress the meat themselves or barter meat for trimming.”

“You can drink the milk from OUR cows, eat the honey from OUR bees, and where the wool from OUR sheep, just come down and "harvest" these goods. You can even camp in THE front yard!”

“You've never impressed me as someone who would ignore facts at his leisure ped.

Try this link to The Minnesota Deer Hunters Association. Scroll down to the section entitled "Habitat Improvement".

Apologize as you see fit.”

“If they didn't have to pay the electric bill on a freezer full of dead animals they might have a little more cash for heat.

Speaking of heat, any one ever heard of geothermal heating? This new way of heating and coolong is amazing!”

“On the flip side Rox, as my vegan son points out: where there are milk cows, there is veal (or at the very least, meat).

For every milk cow born, there is a male born... sooner or later, that male is "dead meat." Usually this is sooner, because cattle bred for milk production are not raised to maturity and the males are slaughtered for veal.

But my point is not to criticize you. I've nearly eliminated red meat from my diet and have been vegitarian for long periods of time. I have to admit the world would be better off if all people were vegetarians, but I am not perfect and neither is the world.

What I don't agree with is consumers of meat bashing all hunters.

There are a lot of obnoxious hunters out there. Every hunting season in NH, there are people who find drunken hunters lost in the forest, idiots stalking family pets through back yards, or fresh bullet holes in the house.

Ooops I better get back to work!”

“thanks rox, but my family has our own farm which keeps us quite busy.

Selfish in that you think the rest of the world should live according to your beliefs.

I wasn't aware that just anyone could fence in public land. I'll have to look up the law that allows that.”

“If you eat meat or wear leather, you hunt. It may be by proxy, but you still hunt. In any event, people hunt. Get over it.

I have never hunted, but I have fished and reserve the right to hunt. If I hunt, it would be for a food resource. Get over that too.

I have no need to argue the point further.”

“Hey Geobeet, Get over it!”

“I don't expect the world to live by or agree with my beliefs. In fact I hope it never does, that would make for a very sad society if we all agreed on everything. I want you all to know I appreciate and respect your views and beliefs.

Twigeater-what kind of farm do you have?”

“I see...

PedXing would rather work than apologize.

harumph!”

“Viol man. I didn't deny that there was clear cutting or "habitat improvement." I just said that I was not impressed that this was a significant problem for hunting compared to other food producing and recreational activities.... especially since hunters do support the maintenance and acquisition of wild lands.

I wasn't ignoring any facts.

Rox: Freezers/Refrigerators don't cost all that much to run in the winter, especially when left in unheated or underheated parts of the house.

(oops! those papers are yelling at me to go back to grading them)”

“Alright I couldn't pass up the opportunity to Add:

Apologize as you see fit, Viol Man, you damned Liberals are all alike!”

“Coulda fooled me, rox.

It's my step dads farm and we all help out at times. He raises beef critters, although every now and then he keeps a milker going. Also has sheep that he shears himself, a horse, and a variety of other critters at different times. He just sold Wilma that my nephew got in the pig scramble last year. I don't know why we didn't eat her ourselves.”

“let me apologize, I don't really agree with everything I said, I'm certainly not against hunting, or guns, or hunters. I said most of those things just to get opinions flying. I must thank Violin, and pedxing for your insightful posts and your knowledge about these things, I really enjoyed your links. Sometimes it helps to turn things up so that you can get thru the silt that cover up the truth.”

“Rox, why do you have to have a fence to keep your sheep contained. Seems to me that if all land is public land, then all sheep should be public sheep. heck. Heck, they really shouldn't be your sheep anyway. They should be free spirited creatures of the wild, not domesticated and imprisoned for your own selfish pleasure.

I wonder what our wilderness would look like if everyone who currently lives in a city in little cubbyholes stacked 20 stories high all moved onto five acre farms.”

“You're not supposed to call off the fun so early, rox. Poor Troll 420 still needs two more posts for a merit badge.”

“Ped --

head???!!! I ain't givin no . . ..oh never mind.



A few off the cuff . . .

Rox -- There most certainly are folks in New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont who rely on hunted meat for their family's protein source. The rural areas of Northern New England can be very poor, subsistance living, with a short growing season.

On this matter . . . you are simply WRONG.

2. My wife's sister lives in Alaska. Her husband is a tax preparer. FOr payment he often takes hunted meat in trade. They fill their freezer with their quota in Salmon every year. And he hunts. It matters to them with a stay at home Mom and three kids and a mortgage.

3. Re: The "Expense" of the meat per pound. One year my brother in law in Alaska (see#2 above) went hunting with a few buddies . . .they chipped in for a bush pilot to drop them in a remote area for five days

The ONE (1) deer that they killed was divided 5 ways. The cost per pound was huge. His wife hasn't let him forget it. It was a waste of money . . .and it mattered.

4. Contrary to the model hunters on this board. And I am sure all the model hunters who belong to the NRA (j/k). . . .

YOU will never convince me that, by and large, the majority of hunters are drunken moronic bubbas who are just out in the woods blasting away. I have seen too many, known too many, heard too many stories, overheard too many stories. The good 'ole boy, beer drinking buddy comradship bragging aspect of hunting is as American as apple pie. I absolutely believe that most hunters are as dumb, cruel moronic, and stupid as Troll420s co-workers at the outset of this thread.

For every family-joe (or birch, or sass or whomever) who is out putting meat on the family tale, i guarandamntee you that there are 3 or 4 a$$holes in the woods too.

I have seen them driving north for "hunting week" all my life. ANd you simply can't convince me that the numbers of idiots don't outway the number of smart ones.”