Isreal vs. Palestine

“BTW, bbw (aka Mr. Wall!) If you remember correctly, the circumstances of Arafat's role during the Bush years as opposed to the Clinton years are two different things. It was Sharon who changed that. During the Clinton years, Arafat was still the active, recognized leader of the Palestinians. He had to be reckoned with. Although still officially in power, he was reduced to impotency by Sharon during this administration, thereby changing his role in the process, when you look at it realistically, rather than on paper. How long was he holed up and kept a virtual prisoner in his Ramallah (sp) compound? Think about it. It's not as simplistic as you put it!
last edited: 2/09/05 7:59:33 AM”

“Bubba "Brick" Wall”

“I like to look at the glass as being half full but I don’t think it’s going to last either. While the leaders may want peace the radicals don’t and their goal is to push the Jews in the sea. The leadership can call a ceasefire all they want but the crazies that are off the reservation won’t stop. Plus Hammas out of Iran won’t stop either (I’d actually look for them to step things up) and will make attacks which the Palis will get blamed for. I think Sharon should use the forces that are stepped down to secure the country and it’s borders and endure what attacks may come during the talks. Someone has to bite the bullet here. Sadly this is not the way Sharon works. He needs to go IMHO.”

“I have to agree with the liberals on this - it was just luck. The Bush admin has been fairly amateurish when dealing with the Israel/Palestine issue.”

“I have to agree with the liberals on this - it was just luck. The Bush admin has been fairly amateurish when dealing with the Israel/Palestine issue.”
Oryx
9:19:28 AM
2/09/05

damn, picking myself up off the floor ;)”

“The great thing about the situation right now is that Israel and the United States are represented by hard-liners.

If the parties involved are smart, they'll get Hammas at the table and offer them a corporate board seat on the new "Iraq-Jordan-Palestine-Israel Oil Pipeline Corporation."

Get the hardliners to agree and grease the wheels with oil. That's the recipe for Mideast Peace. Extremists will have no place to go.”

“So the consensus is that Palestine/Israel exist in a vacuum and the United States policies againt terror had nothing to do with the peace.

Okie Dokie”

“Seriously, bbw. WHat part has the U.S. really played in this so far. Almost seems like they were waiting out Arafat's downfall (not his death, mind you).”

“See if you can find a Democrat who took a position even remotely close to the President's policy. In fact they took the opposite approach.

http://www.rnc.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=1737”

“Okay, we all said Bush had nothing to do with it and your arguing that the Democrats have some how stood in his way? Wow. I'll hand it to the man for being able to take up both sides of the issues. It's glad to see that he expects country's to be for or against the US in the war on terror but he can trivialize their issues.”

“You are correct. You did say that The President had nothing to do with it. I never said Democrats stood in his way. I simply pointed out that the President had a vision and policy that no one else did.

And it looks like it is working.”

“That vision has been in place since the era of Carter, Begin and Sadat, bbw. It hasn't changed much. Hey, it's ok to let an issue pass without using it to build Bush's legacy.”

“Why does this thread title sound like a pay-per-view boxing promo?”

“Bacpac is a violence freak!”

“"How simplistic Liberal Thinking is," that's one of the funniest things EVER!

The Pres has been largely disengaged from the peace process after the failure of the Roadmap to get anywhere. He wasn't williing to take the risk of backing a failure.”

“Yeah, well, he's ready to grab this one for the "legacy"”

“That vision has been in place since the era of Carter, Begin and Sadat, bbw. It hasn't changed much. Hey, it's ok to let an issue pass without using it to build Bush's legacy.”
Treebeard
7:37:18 AM
2/10/05

You have absolutely no vision of the facts. Your statement is completely false. None of the above called Arafat a Terrorist and called for new leadership. None. I understand that you don't like President Bush, but you can't just make stuff up to support your position.

Well maybe you can. You certainly do it often enough.”

“On April 1, 2002 Bush stated he would not label Arafat as a terrorist because he was still engaged in the peace process. How was his policy supposed to be 'better' then everyone elses?”

“What is your source for that statement. In the speech he gave on June 24, 2002 he called Arafat a terrorist.

See my link above.”

“How about the president himself. Here's the excerpt from a statement on the White House website:

Q Mr. President, I'd like to follow up on Sonya's question. Under your doctrine, a terrorist or someone who aids a terrorist is the equivalent of a terrorist. So what's keeping Chairman Arafat -- what's keeping you from labeling Chairman Arafat a terrorist?

THE PRESIDENT: Chairman Arafat has agreed to a peace process. He's agreed to the Tenet plan. He's agreed to the Mitchell plan. He has negotiated with parties as to how to achieve peace. And, of course, our hope is that he accepts the Tenet plan. That's what General Zinni is in the Middle East doing, working to get this Tenet agreement in place, which is a series of concrete steps to reduce the violence in the Middle East.

And here's the link to the page if you want to check it out yourself.”

“I don't care who gets the credit, I'm just happy were not Killing each other. I hope it last.”

“Nowhere in the text does he call Arafat a terrorist. The closest statement to calling him a terrorist is this:

I call on the Palestinian people to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror.


This is a much broader statement and I take it as 'an authority that has let the terrorist organizations thwart the peace initiatives.' I, personally, have ALWAYS labeled Arafat a terrorist. So, it would be hypocritical of me to critisize Bush, had he done the same. He clearly did not, my myopic friend! Next time you accuse me of making things up, take a look at your own interpretations...
last edited: 2/11/05 8:06:35 AM”

““Silent J, you would have better luck talking to a wall than bbw.”
Ewker

Ewker said it all.”

“I think it's safe to say as a neo-con I felt Bush's roadmap sucked and the only reason this cease fire came about was Arafart dieing. I'm really big on giving credit where credit is due but this doesn't mean I'm going to give it where it doesn't go either.”

“It was not just Bush's words, but his deeds. When Israel bulldozed Arafat's complex do you think it was done without consulting the White House? The cursory wrist slap was given by the Administration, but there is nothing in the 60 year relationship between Israel and the US that suggests it ever would have happened if Bush had said no.”

“There is no guarantee that the President's policy will work, but no one can honestly say that it was not unique.

Courting Arafat was the status quo, until President Bush's Administation.

And the policy seems to be working.”

“Bacpac is a violence freak!”
Treebeard
2:34:31 PM
2/10/05

I enjoy physical challenges. That does not define me as a freak or violent.”

“feugo!!!”

“I am a freak. Come on backpack, there is nothing wrong with getting freaky now and then :)”

“The biggest joke in the whole world was the Rabin-Arafat-Clinton handshake. When in the world was peace ever made by three doves?

Peace will be made by the hardliners. As previous posters have made clear, the "deal" has survived for 20 years. It survives because it is the only solution.

The only problem I have is that the Palestinian leader is too nice. I'm not sure that he speaks for the hardline Palestinians.

BTW, I also think that Bush should make a state visit to Tehran, Iran. Sit down with the mullahs. Shake their hands. Demand live airtime on Iranian TV. Ask them why they kill Americans and keep Iranians from self-determination. It would destroy any illusions that people now have that Europeans make any difference at all. And it would just mess over everyone in the Middle East.”

“Hardline and diplomacy. What a concept.

It would not hurt the cause if you used a little more diplomacy, RL.”

“I know, bbw, I'm such a wild-eyed extremist:)

Reformed Lurker
Advance Guard in the Moderate Revolution.”

“Israel by 10!



"Mrs. Israel Sima Bakhar celebrates after she won the Mrs. World 2005 pageant at Amby Valley, 140 kilometers ( 87 miles) north of Bombay, India, late Friday, Feb. 25, 2005. Forty-one contestants from across the globe participated in the pageant, held first time in India. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)"

I can no longer support any Palestinian initiative.
last edited: 2/28/05 11:45:10 AM”

“Yowsah!!! I think I'm in luuuuuuuuuuv!”

“Looks like Lebanon is getting on the Bush, Democracy train too.”

“Isn't Egypt going to be holding the first elections there in how many years?”

“Neocon Amorality

...(T)he neocon process is coming full circle in Iraq. As occurred with the Soviet Union in the early 1980s, the threat from Iraq was wildly exaggerated in 2002-03.

Just as any evidence was twisted to frighten the American people about Soviet intentions earlier, every scrap of intelligence about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction was reshaped to transform Iraq into a clear and present danger to the United States.

The neoconservative goal may always have been to project U.S. power in the Middle East by establishing a pro-U.S. government in Iraq, but the neocons had learned from their Cold War experience that Americans were best motivated by fear, even if that required distorting the public record.

Another echo of the late Cold War can be heard in the neocons’ interpretation of recent events in the Middle East as vindication for their policies, though a more dispassionate analyst might argue that the neocons deserve little credit for either the Soviet collapse or the political stirrings in the Middle East.

But without wonderful ends, what could possibly justify such horrible means?”

“Motivated by fear? Isn't fear the strategy of the left?

The economy is doomed.
The War is a quagmire.
Your Freedom is being eroded.
Your forests are being clear cut.
Global Warming
Aids hysteria

,but the social security system is just fine.”

“bbw - Things may be becoming more positive. But the Administration used fear as a central plank in the campaing. They're not so eager to lift the terror alert now huh?”

“For all of bacpac's crankiness he sure can put things in perspective like a ballpeen between the eyes sometimes. LOL!”

“Like when he pointed out that advocating using a Walmart bag for a water bag was bordering on criminally irresponsible?”

“What nail? Sounds like he's saying if you are afraid of things that Bush doesn't want you toi fear you are a fear mongerer and if you aren't afraid of the things he wants you to be (WMD, Social Security going totally bankrupt) you are clueless.”

“WMD - meaning Iraqi WMD, plus the terror alert WMD.”

“Yeah Israel is spelled wrong but I didn't start it..blame biz


Abu Daoud: No Regrets for Munich Olympics By ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press Writer
Thu Feb 23, 4:36 PM ET


DAMASCUS, Syria - Mohammed Oudeh is old and stooped, his hair and mustache gray. It is difficult to imagine him as Abu Daoud, the key planner of the assault on the 1972 Munich Olympics that left 11 Israeli athletes dead.

But the 69-year-old former guerrilla leader is as militant as ever: In an interview with The Associated Press, he recounts how PLO leaders — angry that the Palestinians were denied an Olympic slot — dreamed up the attack while sitting at a sidewalk cafe in Rome.

And he shows no regret.

Discussing the Palestinians' struggle for a homeland and rejecting the use of the word "terrorist" to describe its fighters, he said of the Munich days: "There was nothing we weren't prepared to do to keep the Palestinian cause in the public eye."

"Before Munich, we were simply terrorists. After Munich, at least people started asking who are these terrorists? What do they want? Before Munich, nobody had the slightest idea about Palestine," he said.

He insists Israel must make concessions if it ever wants peace.

"Today, I cannot fight you anymore, but my grandson will and his grandsons, too," Abu Daoud said, addressing Israelis.

Director Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich" has revived discussions of the Sept. 5, 1972, hostage-taking that shocked the world. Abu Daoud, who did not participate in the attack itself, has not seen the film, but has read about it and hopes someday to see it on DVD.

The movie focuses on the Israeli Mossad intelligence agency's actions to hunt down and kill those it believed responsible for the assault on the Munich Olympic village by members of Abu Daoud's "Black September" group. The group was a violent offshoot of the mainstream Palestinian Fatah faction, and staged attacks on Israelis in Europe in the 1970s.

Two Israeli athletes were killed in the assault, and nine others died in a botched rescue attempt by the German police. A German policeman and five Palestinian gunmen also were killed.

Abu Daoud first acknowledged having a role in the Munich operation in a 1999 book, "Palestine: From Jerusalem to Munich," that caused an uproar when it came out.

After the 1972 attack, he lived in eastern Europe and then in Lebanon until civil war broke out in 1975. He went to Jordan, and from there to Ramallah in the West Bank in 1993 after the Palestinians' Oslo peace accords with Israel.

But when Abu Daoud's book came out in 1999, he was banned from returning to Ramallah after a trip to Jordan, and finally settled in Syria — the only country that would take him.

He agreed to be interviewed by the AP at a Damascus hospital where he said he was having a checkup.

Talking about the 1972 attack, Abu Daoud recalled sitting at a cafe in Rome with fellow PLO guerrilla leader Abu Iyad and his assistant, Mohammed al-Omari, when they read in a newspaper that the International Olympics Committee had refused the PLO's request to send a Palestinian delegation to the Munich Olympics.

Morale was already sagging after the PLO's humiliating retreat from Jordan, where the late King Hussein had crushed Palestinian guerrillas.

"I remember Abu Iyad looked at me and said: 'Let's participate in the Olympics in our own way. Let's kidnap (Israeli) hostages and swap them for prisoners in Israel,'" Abu Daoud said.

Abu Daoud said he immediately took to the idea, and was given the task of doing the operation's groundwork. After several reconnaissance missions to Munich, it was agreed that eight masked gunmen would storm the Israeli athletes' dormitory and take them hostage.

He said that 10 days before the attack, he went to Munich again and took from Abu Iyad weapons, mainly Kalashnikov assault rifles, that had been smuggled in.

On the night of the attack, Abu Daoud said he took the eight attackers to dinner in a restaurant at the Munich train station, then the group got taxis for the Olympic Village. They carried their weapons in sports bags.

The plan was to cut through the fence and break in. But when the group arrived, the eight attackers were able to mingle with drunken American athletes who were climbing over a fence, Abu Daoud said. Inside the dormitory, the gunmen put on masks and began their assault. Abu Daoud, who had stayed at the fence, slipped away.

He said he had no qualms about the operation because he considered the Israeli athletes, as military reservists, legitimate targets. But he said the intent was not to kill the Israelis but to use them as bargaining chips to free more than 200 Palestinians jailed in Israel.

"We had strict orders not to kill anyone except in self defense," he said.

Things did not go as planned. Two athletes resisted the gunmen and were fatally shot, and Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir refused to negotiate. By the time the standoff ended 21 hours later in the German rescue attempt, 17 people were dead.

Still, the Palestinians considered it a victory.

"Through Munich, we were able to force our cause into the homes of 500 million people," Abu Daoud said.

Abu Daoud himself almost died in what he believes was a Mossad attack. In 1981, as he sat in a hotel cafe in Warsaw, Poland, a gunman fired on him, hitting Abu Daoud in his left wrist, chest, stomach and jaw.

"It was a Palestinian double agent, recruited by the Mossad. ... He was arrested 10 years later, put on trial (by the PLO) and executed," Abu Daoud said. It was not possible to verify his account.

Abu Daoud watches Palestinian events closely, including the election victory by the militant group Hamas.

He said he is opposed "in principle" to suicide bombings.

"But then I remind myself that the Palestinians have nothing else to fight with. We have absolutely nothing while our enemy is armed to the teeth. How can you face such an enemy with all its might, if you don't use unconventional and illogical means?" he said.

"In Fatah, we were a bit lenient and ready to give a little. The Israelis didn't want to give anything in return. Now they have Hamas. If they (Israelis) don't give them something, someone even harsher than Hamas will emerge," Abu Daoud said.

"This is the logic of history."


I saw the movie Munich. It is pretty good but it is slow at times.”

“Of Course we all know that the true Palestinians were the Jews before 1947. Lets also remember that 90% of Palestine as it were is in Jordan.....this has nothing to do with land. It has to do with the destruction of Isreal.”

“Lets also remember that 90% of Palestine as it were is in Jordan...

Hmmm...now why won't those Palis target Jordan?”

“not so fast CB

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=isreal&word2=palestine”

“my bad. i forgot we were using the alternate-universe "isrEAl"”