Attention: XC Ski Gurus!!

“Time for a new pair of boots, and I need some advice.

I generally do pretty tame skiing, about 60% on groomed trails, and the off-groomed-trail skiing I do is not generally too difficult. I usually am skiing with wife & son, and we consider XC skiing to be: "Hiking in the Snow with Long Boards Stuck to Our Feet to Make it Easier." (Although there was that race at Badger Pass where I won my age group a few years back....) I would like to be able to do some more winter camping, so will likely have a pack on at times. I have waxless Fischer crown base skis with 3-pin bindings that have been great for the 15 years I've had them. They are sufficiently inefficient that they keep me from getting going too fast and out of control ;-) .

My old boots were leather, very comfortable and functional, with the one exception that when I did go winter camping last year, they got wet and wouldn't dry out for the one night we camped. So I was putting on wet, no frozen, then wet boots in the morning. This wasn't a huge deal because skiing for 10 minutes warmed my feet up just fine, but I would just as soon avoid that problem.

No, I don't plan on learning to telemark and invade the downhill slopes.

I made one brief pass past the nordic gear at Berkeley's REI a month ago, and they had one pair of boots suitable for my bindings. I think they were these.

Any suggestions?

Oh, one other thing. My bindings are looking a little ragged. Is it possible / practical to consider replacing them, or are your skis limited to one set of bindings in their lives?”

“Kahru makes very nice boots.

A pro can change bindings for you if you want to upgrade. I never do it myself. I'm worried about the proper placement and damaging the skis.

I love my Salomans and lust after the new backcoutnry boots every time I see them, but mine won't wear out. I have both backcounry touring and Combo Saloman boots and both are extremely warm boots.”

“Hey Marty! I put some new bindings on my backcountry skis. They're still three pin but a heavier telemark type. I still have the leather boots (they look like hiking boots with Vibram soles) but I'm thinking about upgrading. I just unscrewed the old ones and screwed in the new ones. I put in some filler to tighten up the holes a bit before I put the new screws in.

Those ones at REI look pretty good. Even if you're not going into strictly telemarking, it's still nice to be able to negotiate the downhills with a pack on. Those boots look like you could carve a few turns.”

“aero-
Do you know anything about WAX?

I bought some wood Norskiskis from ebay.....always wanted to try that kind.”

“gotta make sure the bottom is sealed with pine tar. You paint it on, heat with a torch till it bubbles, wipe off excess. I love that smell. Wax the kick zone and you are ready to go.


This should have some waxing tips.
XC Ski World, beginners section”

“Thanks so far, path and aero. I'm hoping a couple of the other guys check in, too, like mtnsteve and big wave dave....”

“Tom- pathman's right about the wood skis; you need to have that base layer of pine tar. For composite, wax skis you have different waxes on the kick (middle part) of the ski and glide (front and back) depending on the tempurature. The glide wax is like a parafin and harder than the kicker wax (like the softer red, purple or klister (really sticky)) Basically smear it on and rub it in with a cork block to smooth it out.

Also- wax skis are higher performance than no wax and you can really fly on them if you happen to get the right wax on for the conditions. I have both wax and no-wax, and it's fun sometimes to get the right wax going.”

“I have only wax skis. Love that glide!”

“Waxed skis make you go too fast! Aaaaauuuuggggghhhhhhhh... CRASH!!”

“Thanks, boys!

The edges look a bit sharper than those on the plastic skis.

Better turning?”

“Good wood skis can turn pretty good. I had a pair that I loved. Had "lignite" edges, whatever that is, compressed hardwood, I think. Not as good as metal edges, though.”

“Keeping your boots dry for skiing day after day is tough. In the end they will get wet eventually and especially if the snow is a little soft. Goretex socks will help keep your feet dry, but will do nothing to keep the boot from getting soaked. Super gaiters will help. I use the Xgaiter from OR when skiing for extended periods or if it is very cold since it has removable insulation. They will help, but to some extent snow will still sneak up inside and melt against the boot.
I changed bindings from 3 pin to NNN and had no problems.”

“Good points, richb. In my experience last year, I made sure I had warm dry socks to put on at the end of the day. When I had to leave the tent to pee, I just took the warm dry socks off, put my bare feet in the cold wet boots, went out, came back, and put the warm dry socks back on. Not that big a deal. Still....”

“Bring Polarguard booties to wear around camp. They give your feet a break that they will need after skiing all day and will keep them warm. Put your boots in a plastic bag, then in a stuff sack and put them in the bottom of your sleeping bag to keep them from freezing. That's assuming you have room at the bottom of your sleeping bag. I bought a large winter bag for that reason even though I'm not tall.”

“I still have the first new pair of x-country skis my parents bought me back in 1974. They had the lignistone edges (darker/harder wood). I also have my first pair of fiberglass skis, the red and white Fischer's. AND a pair of fischer telemark skis I rairly used along with a newer pair of low-end Rossignols, all wax type bases.

I agree with Aero, when you get the wax just right, you can really fly. Of course I used to race though, so I flew all the time.

LMAO”

“I use waxless Harhu skiis, Bean's sell some by the name of boreals. These are a little shorter and wider, makes them a little slower but more manuverable in the trees. I got the NNN bindings and shoes. These are step in style, securely holding on, but will pop out if you twist up bad enough. With a screw driver and a tape measure, you can mount these yourself. What I really like about these is the binding has 2 ridges and the boots have 2 slots that mesh together and your foot stays straight on the skiis.

Bean's has some boots with a velcro attached flap that covers your shoelaces and helps you slide through the deep stuff, but more importantly, keeps your laces from icing up.”

“Thanks again, richb! And Uphill! Keep that advice comin' - trip to REI is in order for this weekend....

One other important feature I want (just like my old boots): ability to walk in them like hiking boots if you reach a dry patch. This was great in my trip last Feb., where we had about 3 miles of hiking down the Yosemite Falls trail at the end of our trip. Some of the other guys had to haul boots with them while skiing so they could have something to walk in at the end. My old boots made rather comfortable hiking shoes....”

“I walked 11 mile in my Salomans a few weeks ago. 8D”

“Changing bindings yourself is dead easy; I changed them on all our school's skis a few years ago. The dingbats in auto shop used heated glue which disolved the foam core and we had a pile of expensive junk. I told the boss no problem and took my special ed clas and we made up a project of filling the holes with fibreglass car body filler and screwing the bindings on before it hardened. It worked like a charm.”

“hey gremlin, do you think fiberglass car body filler would work on my sled bottom?

It is fiberglass, made by a company that makes fiberglass racing boat hulls. Bad or no snow for 11 miles in AK took a toll on it.

Sled damage, the blue one”

“One thing I covet on my skiis, but thus far am entirely unwilling to pay the difference is metal edges. A buddy of mine said they grab on real good when you cross ice, and I have been guilty of coveting ever since. But they double the price of the skiis. Iffin' you ever catch some on sale, grab em and send my way!!!!! LOL Actually, if you see a good sale and the skiis fit you, I'd recommend the metal edges.
$.02”

“I got full metal edges this year, Fischer Rebounds. I've been out with them a few times and I think I may love them. On unbroken flattish terrain they are quite like snowshoeing with the added benefit of being able to glide a little and of course a lot on the downhills. But not at the speed of my regular touring skis either, I have much more control. I also notice the difference in weight from my other skis, metal edges being heavier.

The only thing I'm really not liking is the noticeable lack of back kick. In my back yard I had to herring bone up the slightest of inclines. (btw, these are waxless, with fishscales) I'm thinking half the problem may be because LLBean waxes all their skis before you pick 'em up, or that they need to be out a little more. My other skis chug up hills quite nicely.

I may look at skins - anyone have thoughts about skins?”

“It might be because the metal edges are stiffer and you may not be pressing the wax pocket into the snow enough to get a good grip.”

“skins rock.

If you just need a little more kick, you can get short skins for the kick zone. I have full length skins, they are truly amazing. Good for slowing speed on narrow steep trails with no room to turn or snowplow.”

“Maybe that's it richb. If my skis were too small, how much would that affect the back kick?

I'll check out the shorter skins Pathman, thanks.”

“My friend says that skis that are too long will prevent you from getting a good grip. I had problems getting good grip on my touring skis that are long. I just bought them and got a great deal on them leftover at the end of the year sale. I'm not so sure that they were too long for me because when I applied more kick wax to make the wax pocket bigger I got a good grip and a nice glide too. That was years ago so I think it was just a matter of waxing them properly. I like them and for the $40 I paid for them I got my money's worth already and they are still in good shape. I took up skate skiing a couple years ago, but you really need to be at a Xcountry ski area on groomed trails to really skate.”

“If the ski camber is wrong, you won't get enough kick. You should be able to stand with all of your weight on one ski and get the bottom of the ski to touch in the kick area.”

“My skis are supposed to be smaller than I should have, so maybe I need to put my weight into it.

For ungroomed stuff I can go out back of my house, for groomed the Arboretum is great, and free. I hate paying to ski, and I don't particularly like two track. Plus there's a skillion snowmobile trails around. I've played around with skate skiing with my regular touring skis, lots of fun and great exercise!

I'm gonna keep playing with my Rebounds, I think they'll be my new best buddies. :) I may even go down a hill or two with 'em, they're pretty forgiving.”

“I don't like paying to ski either since there's enough good skiing close by. At least this winter there's some snow to ski on.”

“For you who ski in the Sierra's, snow reports, tips etc are available here

”

“Glad somebody brought up the metal edges issue. Mine don't have 'em, and I don't feel I'm missing out. I really like the light weight, and, more importantly, my experience last Feb. tells me I may not need 'em. The guy in our group who had, by far, the most experience had skis just like mine. We had to traverse a rather treacherous area - the north flank of El Capitan - in the morning. It was pretty much solid ice, with a steep, treeless cross slope. One slip and you would slide 300 feet over to the 500 foot cliff with nothing to stop you. With careful attention to what I was doing, I didn't have the slightest slippage. The other guys (with metal edges) were able to do it with more confidence, but I'm living proof that I did OK with what I have. No, I don't plan on doing anything that scary again....

Also, I got full length skins for that trip - awesome. I recall early in the trip literally climbing straight up a hill and being amazed I was doing it. Later, as I got tired, they were great for slowing me down on the downhills.”

“Twig,

Clean all the wax off the bottom of your skis, bring them into the house where you have a flat hard surface, stand on both skis equally, have someone slide a piece of paper under the foot area of the ski, move it forward and backward under the ski, note where the paper stops both in front of and behind your feet, this is the kick zone of your ski, this is the area you need toapply the kick wax to the ski.”

“Chief, she said they are waxless, fishscale bottoms. If you have to wax them, what's the use?”

“thanks, I know where my kick zone is, but what is kick wax? Is that a special kind of wax (that does what?) or do you just call it kick wax cause it's applied in the kick zone? And why would I want it any slipperier? (? is that a real word, lol?)

and ditto what Pathman said.
I've had my touring skis for 15 years, also waxless, and never waxed them - that is why I buy waxless.

Martyb, I'll never be doing anything like you described (I hope) but I do have more confidence with my skis - whether it be the full edges, shorter length, or extra width - enough so I may try some *small* downhill stuff, which I would never attempt with my other skis.”

“The fiberglass filler works for me on kayaks and canoes and it looks like it would work on a fiberglass sled as well. I'm really interested in your sled pics and how you constructed them. We're doing a trip or two into Yellowstone again this winter and I'm taking a sled in. Last year I just packed in on skis and one of our group pulled a sled which worked really well. Any more sled pics?”

“there are some more sled pics in this album Tolovana Hot Springs, AK

My friend put his together, the orange one. Much like what people on TT have been doing.

I'm not that "handy", bought mine a few years ago. Great sled, but definitely made for snow, not frozen dirt.

His doesn't show the damage as much, but would wear through with another trip or two like that. Orange and blue confetti left all over the rocks in the trail.

Both sleds worked well. I got a tip to cross the poles when I go mine. It works.”

“Twig- the kick wax is stickier than the glide wax and grips the snow better. generally the warmer the snow conditions, the stickier the wax. e.g., on a 32+ degree day you might use a red wax, or if it's really wet a klister which is gooey and comes in a tube (yuck!). Blue or green wax for colder days. They have the temp. ranges printed on the side of the wax stick. When you get it right it's really great!”

“Waxless skis don't require wax in the kick zone, however, it would be a good idea to still apply a glide/speed wax on the tips and tails. It will help keep the skis from'dragging'.

Kick wax is just the wax you apply in the kick zone, obviously. They are from coldest/dryest snow to warmest/wettest:

Light Green
Dark Green
Blue
Purple
Red

Then you get into the Klister waxes that are very sticky and come in a tube, when your skis require Klister, it's time to quit skiing and start hiking. Klister wax is a royal pain in the ass.”

“What Chief said!”

“ahh... Klister weather in Fairbanks meant daylight after work and skiing in 50F weather late March early April. I loved it.

I also found Klister very useful spring skiing in the Sierras.”

“I gotta sound in again on the metal edges. I have never had them so I really don't know what I am missing. I do have to say that I have done everything I ever felt like I could, with or without metal edges. It's just that if I upgrade....

Uh... do you really wanna put wax into all the crevices of a fishscale ski, then have to dig it out to change it? How does that work? I do like the low maintenance part of fishscales-just strap em on and go- but there is the trade off. While they are about as good as it gets in the right snow, you will do better in the wet and heavy stuff with wax skiis. So if I were to wax them for the wet and heavy stuff, what's it take to get it off when it cold again?

So who's done it and is it a hassle or does it work well and change out well?”

“No, you don't want to wax waxless skis. The waxless skis I saw only had the fishtails in the kick area. The tips and tails were smooth. But hey, the only type of ski I use is the wax types.”

“Don't wax the fishscales! With waxless skis you don't want to wax the kick area, but you might want to put glide wax on the smooth part.”

“Chief says wax the kick area, Pathman says no...will you girls make up my mind, lol

I'm not waxing anything, anywhere, on any of my skis, that's why I buy waxless.

o(=}”

“I don't think Chief understood you have waxless skis when he said that. His subsequent posts support that impression.”

“Sounds like the tone of this discussion is waxing.”

“phew! no wonder I was confused.”

“Now it seems to be waning....”

“then how about a link to links?”

“Sorry for the confusion, I did NOT read twigs post fully to realize she has waxless skis.

The technique I described to find the kick area is for wax skis only. By doing that, you can refine your waxing techniques for different snow conditions. You only apply kick wax to the area where the paper will slide. If you are slipping you can wax slightly forward of the area where the paper stops.

If you are buying wax skis, you want to do this because x-country skis have different stiffnesses. A heavier skier would need a stiffer ski, a lighter skier would want a less stiff ski.

The kick area should be slightly in front of the toes and slightly behind the heel, ~20 inches of kick area is about right for me.

The tips and tails of ALL skis should be waxed with a glide, or what we used to call, a speed wax. When going down hill, you sit slightly back on your heels. This gets the kick area off the snow and reduces any drag from the kick wax. Only the speed waxed area of the ski is on the snow then.

Are we more or less confused now?”