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Dubya apologists, let's hear your spin.. .View MessagesViewing posts 1 to 48 of 48 messages posted.
“"The United States has said that it is willing to consider energy aid to Pyongyang if it gives up its nuclear programme." [snip] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2652007.stm It appears Bush is practicing Clintonesque appeasement. What a sorry excuse for a foreign policy!” 11:09:11 AM 1/13/03 “” 11:09:36 AM 1/13/03 “About a week ago, Fareed Zakaria predicted that Bush would be forced to go this route in this concise piece. Morality Is Not a Strategy The crisis is not that Kim has suddenly become more evil. It is that North Korea will, within months, become a plutonium factory President Bush is right about one thing—North Korea’s Kim Jong Il is an evil man who runs one of the most barbaric regimes in the world, suppressing and starving its own people. In the back-and-forth of diplomacy around the current crisis we should not forget this fundamental fact. The problem, however, is that in foreign policy you need not just moral clarity, but also strategic clarity. RIGHT NOW ON North Korea we have moral clarity but strategic incoherence. Let’s start at the beginning. What is the goal of our policy toward North Korea—nuclear disarmament or regime change? President Bush has repeatedly hinted that it’s regime change. Most recently he explained to Bob Woodward that while there are those who worry about the fallout of overthrowing the regime, he did not. “Either you believe in freedom ... or you don’t,” he explained. But we have no way of achieving this goal. A military attack on North Korea is impossible, not because it may have one or two crude nuclear weapons, but because it will retaliate by obliterating a large part of South Korea. Seoul is 35 miles from the North Korean border. Our options are constrained not by nukes, but by geography. Without the means to do it, regime change is not a policy, but a daydream. And the crisis at hand is not that Kim Jong Il has suddenly become more evil. It is that North Korea will, within months, become a plutonium factory. A nuclear North Korea will overturn the strategic landscape of East Asia, weakening deterrence on the Korean peninsula. It might make Japan go nuclear, which would push China and Japan into a nuclear-arms race. In other words, very bad stuff. That’s why our primary short-term concern has to be disarmament. Harvard professor Ashton Carter, one of President Clinton’s senior defense aides, puts it sharply: “We told the North Koreans that we were not out to topple them but we would not tolerate their going nuclear. The Bush administration is doing the opposite. For two years it signaled that it was out to get them, but now that they’re going nuclear, it says that’s not a crisis. For American interests, this gets things backwards.” So much for goals. Now, what tools can we use to make North Korea disarm? The big divide between the United States and its allies is that the Bush administration wants to use sticks, while the allies want to use carrots. Partly, this reflects differing perceptions of the threat. For Washington, the main danger posed by North Korea is nuclear proliferation. For the Chinese and South Koreans, the paramount danger is chaos. They worry that using too much pressure will spark a war or a North Korean implosion—and they would have to deal with the resulting bloodshed, instability, refugees and bills. What little leverage exists is wielded by our allies. China supplies food aid to North Korea. South Korea does some trade with it. The North’s biggest fear, that Japan will go nuclear, is not something Washington can credibly threaten. (Remember, making loose threats is what got us into this situation in the first place.) The reality is that no one has much leverage. North Korea is one of the two or three most isolated regimes in the world. Its people are eating grass for food. Economic sanctions are unlikely to force change. That’s why the Clinton administration settled on a bargain that gave the North Koreans fuel in return for assurances that they would stop making plutonium. Republican hard-liners railed against this “appeasement” and for two years we have had a policy of cheap rhetoric and cheap shots—except it suddenly isn’t so cheap anymore. As a result, the chest-thumping machismo from the hard-liners has now morphed into sophisticated realism. The situation is very complex, you see. Soon the administration will return to a version of the Clinton policy it condemned. Senior officials have already told CNN that while they will not “negotiate” with North Korea, they could well “talk.” I suppose it all depends on what the definition of the word “negotiate” is. At the next National Security Council meeting Colin Powell should ask that the group all hold hands and repeat after him, “Diplomacy is not appeasement,” swallow its pride and get to work. If the administration negotiates well, using a mixture of sticks and carrots, it could significantly improve on the Clinton deal, which had some flaws and blind spots. We don’t just need to cap but to reverse North Korea’s nuclear program. Ronald Reagan said of Gorbachev’s Russia, “Trust but verify.” With the North Koreans, I suggest a simpler motto, “Verify and verify.” Eventually this grotesque regime will fall and President Bush will be well remembered for speaking plainly of its evil. But between now and then we do need a policy.” 11:42:57 AM 1/13/03 “Un-bold?” 11:46:08 AM 1/13/03 “Close font tag?” 11:47:08 AM 1/13/03 “Un-strong?” 11:52:54 AM 1/13/03 “Nuke the bastards!” 12:00:01 PM 1/13/03 “Let's see if this works... There.” 12:06:05 PM 1/13/03 “ There?” 12:06:25 PM 1/13/03 “I disagree that military action against NK is "impossible." Build up massive air power, deploy Israel's new missile defense system, and increase troop strength to around 250,000. Do this while demanding inspections, and then either disarm them or invade. It would be a costly war, but it would rid the world of a madman with nukes and ICBMS. Plus, China would be sweating with so much American force in the region. ;-)” 12:07:31 PM 1/13/03 “Thanks for unbolding. I must have screwed up the html tag.” 12:08:11 PM 1/13/03 “No prob. :-)” 12:16:16 PM 1/13/03 Missing a good bet.... “Let the Russians or the Chinese do it.... Provide the continuance of rhetoric, and secretly make a deal with the Russians or Chinese to sucker punch the N. Koreans while we have them locked in a verbal exchange.... Anyone who doesn't realize that the Russians and Chinese have a much larger stake in this is blind, the prevailing winds that would carry the results of a nuclear exchange in Korea would harm them more than us. I also think we should withdraw unilaterally from Korea, and let happen whatever happens...Say to, oh, JAPAN. (When the Japanese realize we are serious about leaving the Koreans to their fate, they will beg for us to move to Japan; they remember the Koreans very well....Comfort Women anyone?)” 12:46:48 PM 1/13/03 “NK wants a non agression agreement before it will shut down the reactors, right? How about a "we'll #&%!$ing blow the #&%!$ outta ya if ya don't shut the plants down policy"? IMHO, NK is a more serious issue than "Iraq, Part Deux". Has the US given the inspector the sercet "information" on Iraqs WMD yet? Seems like we're sending a lot of troops over there on little evidence. Heard today that there was a threat issued that named a time, place and target (our tropps in the middle east). That's a first. Is that noise I hear in the distance the propaganda machine??????” 12:56:38 PM 1/13/03 “I don't see how this is an about face....My understanding is that if they prove that they aren't making nukes that we will resume fuel shipments...How are we making consessions...There is no new deal...What am I missing here?” 2:00:31 PM 1/13/03 “The velociraptors in the administration felt that the shipments were 'appeasement' in the first place.” 2:07:01 PM 1/13/03 “I agree with Supertroll! This is actually a GOOD situation for the US, in this regard.... We can really buddy up with China and Russia. Include them in the Superpower Triumvate, and then the three of us can put a stop to this, enhance our trade relations, and send a message to other dictators who let their folks eat grass, yet have the Money to build nuclear weapons....... not on this planet!” 2:10:55 PM 1/13/03 “And to think I used to wonder how Foggy Bottom got its name. (Okay, I know it was built over a swamp, but you get my drift)” 2:11:34 PM 1/13/03 “Anyone who doesn't realize that the Russians and Chinese have a much larger stake in this is blind No, not necessarily. The Ruskis and the ChiComs would love to see the U.S. stretch its forces thin by getting into entanglements with NK and Iraq at the same time. Those two countries certainly do NOT want the U.S. to invade Iraq. They do NOT want to see Iraqi oil in the hands of the U.S. - particularly Russia, which is more vulnerable as an oil-exporting country. China is the most realistic third-party that might intervene in NK. But the only reason they would do so is out of fear of economic instability. Everyone knows, or should know, that direct foreign investment - a lot of it - is a major factor in the continued economic growth in China. Instability on the Korean Peninsula just might scare investment away. But the U.S. will have to convince China this is the case.” 2:49:13 PM 1/13/03 “We can really buddy up with China and Russia. Surely you jest. Just the idea of buddying up to China is absolutely repugnant.” 2:51:14 PM 1/13/03 “I don’t know if you’ve read the reports that the Bush administration was briefed in January 2001 by the outgoing Clinton administration that NK had secretly restarted their uranium enrichment program. One really wonders why they would sit on such news for nearly two years and then have Kelly press on it just as we are ramping up for war half a world away. Now it seems, they are willing to accept NK as a member of the nuclear family based upon speculation rather than be forced to act on this very important development right now and be distracted from Iraq – “well if they already have a couple of bombs, what’s a few more matter?” Incredibly, there are White House and GOP sources talking about a full withdrawal from South Korea to take away the threat of a NK first strike on our troops. In other words, do exactly what they have wanted for 50 years! So let me get this all straight. Stopping their nuclear program and limiting their missile program was appeasement but accepting them as a nuclear power and a unilateral withdrawal of our troops from the peninsula is a hard-line approach. Curiouser and curiouser.” 3:14:18 PM 1/13/03 “Excellent points Violin. The Bush Admin has no coherent foreign policy outside its myopic focus on Iraq. Just another glimpse of the narrow focus of the Bush Admin is Venezuela. That country is one of the most important sources of oil for us. Yet their political system, economy and oil exports have gone down the crapper lately. Particularly disturbing since ME oil may be disrupted by war - we need Venezuelan oil more than ever now. Normally a POTUS would very actively intervene in this kind of crisis. Bush hasn't done jack squat.” 3:41:38 PM 1/13/03 “BTW, the only thing that Kim is going to understand is the credible threat of force. IMHO. Appeasement may delay, but not solve, the problem.” 3:43:35 PM 1/13/03 “I'm just wondering if Bush's "axis of evil" speech wasn't an attempt to monkey the success of Reagan's "Evil Empire" speech.” 3:48:10 PM 1/13/03 “One really wonders why they would sit on such news for nearly two years and then have Kelly press on it just as we are ramping up for war half a world away. I don't know where the Bush supporters are, so I'll toss out the conservative perspective on this. Yes, the CIA had credible suspicians regarding NK resuming its nuclear program. However, it didn't have the 'smoking gun' until Kelly confronted them with tangible evidence. Kelly's timing was just a means to prove to the world NK's bad behavior, and to force the world to find a peaceable solution. By the time the Iraq war is over, we'll know whether diplomacy will work in NK or whether we'll be going to war on the peninsula next. But I don't buy it.” 4:02:06 PM 1/13/03 “Why not just tell China that unless they reign in Kim Jong II, we will start tariffing their products 100% and revoke their MFN status.” 5:23:26 PM 1/13/03 “World affairs are way to complicated for anyone to make absolute statements...Anyone that does has missed the plot..and really is just playing politics...When you consider the economic implications of world trade..things become even more messy...NK just needs to understand that we won't put up with their crap..and that we'd defend any nation that fell victim to their aggression...It'd be nice to have that Stalinist regime out of power...and in it's place a unified democratic Korea...Is it worth the cost..or the risks..who knows...I guess time will tell...” 5:49:35 PM 1/13/03 “I don't know where the Bush supporters are Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage and/or Boortz haven't told them what to think about this yet.” 7:53:45 PM 1/13/03 “Could the hawks be itching to prove that we could fight in two theaters at once? Rummy did say "We can kick their asses too".” 7:55:58 PM 1/13/03 They Can Have Their Nukes And EAT Them Too “I concur with SuperTroll...let those nearby NK take care of the threat.” 8:06:35 PM 1/13/03 “i have no opinion on this matter....not that any of you care.....i have to pee now” 10:01:36 PM 1/13/03 “I concur with SuperTroll...let those nearby NK take care of the threat Well hell, "nearby" includes the U.S.! Their 3-stage taepo-dong ICBMs can reach the U.S. mainland with ease. Not to mention the tens of thousands of U.S. troops on the peninsula and in Japan right now. I don't understand people's blase attitude toward NK - our POTUS included. Kim is a much bigger, more immediate threat than Sadam. Wake up.” 9:25:07 AM 1/14/03 “POTUS = President of the United States?” 9:29:26 AM 1/14/03 “my bro-in-law was informed this weekend to pack his bags and to expect to be going somewhere hot and sandy within 2 weeks. he's in the marine reserves and never went anywhere for desert storm. they took 1/3 of his unit on sat. mutt, bush is not ignoring NK. you somply aren't privy to all the diplomatic things taking place. i think SK or japan is in much graver danger than the US. oh wait...dam...i have no opinion on this matter....” 9:35:34 AM 1/14/03 “We really don't want South Korea or Japan to feel that they have to go nuclear to defend against NK, do we? As far as "all the diplomatic things taking place" - no one less than Powell should be over there talking.” 9:44:57 AM 1/14/03 “Kind of an interesting editorial in today's NYTimes: North Korea's Secret By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF SEOUL, South Korea The eeriest puzzle in the Hermit Kingdom just north of here is not where it hides its nukes, but where it hides its disabled people. The only time I was allowed into North Korea, years ago, I couldn't find anyone in a wheelchair, on crutches or missing a hand. North Koreans kept insisting there were no disabled people in Pyongyang, the clean and lovely capital of which North Korea is justifiably proud. "Any handicapped people have voluntarily moved to other parts of our country," one official said. Right. The darker explanation is that North Korea systematically exiles mentally retarded and disabled people from the capital, so as not to mar its beauty. North Korea gets away with this because it is not only the most totalitarian nation in the world, but also the most isolated — and those characteristics offer a clue about how the U.S. should best respond to the North Korean nuclear challenge. Talk to North Korean defectors here in South Korea, and it is clear that isolation and ignorance sustain the Great Leader's rule. Even the most cynical defectors are awed when they arrive in South Korea and discover that traffic jams are not just Potemkin displays to impress foreigners, but a genuine capitalist problem. The North Korean regime reacted typically to the 1990's famine, which killed some two million North Koreans, by putting propaganda into overdrive. A campaign urged the health benefits of dieting, and the national slogan became "Let's Eat Just Two Meals a Day!" There was even a television documentary focusing on a man who ate too much rice — and then supposedly exploded. So how can we undermine North Korean propaganda and totalitarianism? By imposing sanctions and increasing its isolation? Or by engaging it and tying it to the global economy? The answer should be obvious, for there is no greater subversive in a Communist country than an American factory manager. People will hear stories from his housemaid's third cousin's neighbor's friend about how he has five pairs of blue jeans (!), a beer belly (!), blows his nose on tissues that he then throws away (!), and reads a Bible (!) and Playboy magazine (!!). Many a Communist will immediately begin dreaming of capitalism. Even more destabilizing will be the realization that North Korea is the laughingstock of the world. When I was in Pyongyang, North Korean officials were thrilled when I gleefully purchased a book with a stern photo of Kim Jong Il titled "The Great Teacher of Journalists." Officials were utterly deflated when they realized that I was buying the book not out of reverence but out of hilarity. I've argued that our least bad option is to hold our noses and negotiate with North Korea — and President Bush, to his credit, is now ambling in that direction — but it's important to be clear-eyed about what this means. We would indeed be giving in to blackmail, and the administration is right to be nervous about rewarding bad behavior. But as long as we're being clear-eyed, look carefully at what we'd be agreeing to. Granted, we would probably end up with a new agreement somewhat similar to, but more verifiable than, the failed 1994 Agreed Framework. North Korea would pledge to keep promises it broke last time (by secretly pursuing nukes) and we would pledge to keep promises we broke last time (to recognize North Korea and move toward normal trade). This may be better than war or allowing North Korea to become a plutonium factory, but it's not a deal to boast about. Still, the beauty of succumbing to this kind of blackmail is that the Great Leader desperately wants what eventually will destroy him. If we exchange embassies and expand trade and other exchanges, the isolation and totalitarianism there will be unsustainable, and North Korea in time will either collapse or reform and open up as China did after the U.S. began to engage it in the 1970's. If only President Clinton had instituted the 1994 agreement with gusto, flooding North Korea with diplomats, investors, traders and pot-bellied bankers who ostentatiously overeat — without exploding — then monuments to the Great Leader might already have been replaced by American-run Internet cafes. So let's agree to be blackmailed, so that North Korea gives up its nukes in exchange for Western trade and investment. I'm betting that soon Pyongyang would have a Starbucks — accessible to the disabled. I basically agree.” 9:52:07 AM 1/14/03 “Violin - yes. POTUS = the pres. Stratdewd: mutt, bush is not ignoring NK. you somply aren't privy to all the diplomatic things taking place. i think SK or japan is in much graver danger than the US. Well, Kim is forcing Bush to spare some of his attention now, but Bush's strategy on NK was ignore/isolate. And it backfired. Bush definitely doesn't want a war with NK right now. Although our military can handle two wars (supposedly), it would be folly to pursue that deliberately, when other options are available. Not privy to "diplomatic things", as you so neatly put it. No, of course not. None of us are. We bring to the table what we know and the logic and perspective we possess and make an argument. Taking this line of argument (i.e. that no one really knows what's going on) is a non-starter, evidence of a lack of perspective, and a profoundly flimsy apologetic for Bush's foreign policy failure.” 9:54:26 AM 1/14/03 “The answer should be obvious, for there is no greater subversive in a Communist country than an American factory manager. Riiiiight - like in China? His whole premise is fundamentally flawed on this point. Kim Jong Il remained in power when millions of his people were starving to death. It's just NOT going to be as simple as inserting capitalist forces and hoping things will change. The article states that NK is the most totalitarian regime in the world. Arguably correct. If the people are completely disenfranchised from any sort of real power, how are they going to bring about change? Look at the Arab Street. It's been seething with anger at their secular gov'ts for years now - but hey, there's been very little change in governance! It's because they lack power and fear the State. NK will be no different.” 10:03:32 AM 1/14/03 “Its a slow approach, but I don't expect the Chinese old guard will survive a lot longer - look at the recent history of the Soviet Union. That change came about because average Soviet citizens wanted what we have. A change to democracy in China could be easier because they already have a market economy in place. The pacifist in me prefers a velvet revolution.” 10:10:28 AM 1/14/03 “That change came about because average Soviet citizens wanted what we have I disagree with you on this point. The Soviet Union collapsed in large part because their economy failed. This process of collapse was catalyzed by Afghanistan and SDI. Back in the '60's the KGB was aware that the SU couldn't keep up with free market economies in the long run. The masses wanting what the West had may have had an influence on the subsequent democratization, but it didn't bring about the collapse. The ChiComs are bringing to people what the West has, and they're solidly entrenched in power. As long as they can keep their economy growing above 8%, they'll be fine - there won't be any 'velvet revolution'. No, a capitalist economic system alone does not automatically guarantee personal freedom or democracy. China proves that. The peasants in NK have much less power and inflence than the Chinese proletariat. Revolution just isn't going to happen from the inside.” 10:21:37 AM 1/14/03 “i agree with everyon4s disagreement” 10:23:39 AM 1/14/03 “Good point mutt, but the full embrace of a market economy (largely in response to Tianamen Square (sp?)) has really eroded the state’s power. Millions of people are divorced from state control over jobs, housing, etc. There is a growing gulf between the politically connected business people and those still wedded to the state economy – I think you mentioned civil unrest in the older industrial areas before. Sure, economic growth has slowed the demands for political reform in China, but the internal contradictions in their system are still there – give it time. How much more unrest must there be seething beneath the surface in a country where people are eating grass?” 10:47:02 AM 1/14/03 “Sure, economic growth has slowed the demands for political reform in China, but the internal contradictions in their system are still there – give it time. Your point is taken. I just place a low probability on it. :-)” 10:50:15 AM 1/14/03 “It would be a lot easier if we had crystal balls. ... we'd have to be extra careful with them though.” 11:16:11 AM 1/14/03 From The Onion 10:29:38 AM 1/15/03 “I am very amused by the Bush spin - everything we are talking about offering North Korea now was really secretly in the works before they revived their nukes, so we weren't conceding anything anyway. I guess it saves him some facte to say this, but its hard to believe that he was really going to try to win over that end of the "Axis of evil" with kindness.” 10:34:19 AM 1/15/03 “Here's an interesting story from Seymour Hersh regarding Pakistan's role in North Korea's nuclear program and who knew what, when.” 10:45:16 AM 1/22/03 8:29:45 AM 1/23/03
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