pssst...Winter BP Secrets

“For winter hiking, I try to keep my pack weight the same (or less) as in the warmer seasons. I don't see the need to increase pack weight with extra clothes if I use a layering system consisting of non-cotton clothes, polartec, and a parka, and I've found that I can go for 3-4 days without changing clothes because I sweat less, but always carry spare socks and gloves. Minimize to essential gear (no War & Peace!) Tradeoffs are stuff like no water filter and minimal mess kit to lighten the load.

Most important piece of winter gear? your stove! Melt snow and ice, thaw out your meals, hydrate hydrate hydrate, and make a hot water bottle for the night. I bought a neoprene insulator (typically used to keep your water bottle cold) and put my MSR fuel bottle in it, keeps the metal bottle from making contact with cold and snow. Easy to eat meals - not Chef Bobo's favorite, but necessary to keep pack weight down.

Drink as much warm fluids as possible. Force fluids, as much as possible, before hiking and at breaks (if you can) and cut back on carrying alot of water in your pack. At the hint of hypothermia, fire up the stove and take in warm fluids. Empty your water bottles at night, so you don't wake up with a bottle full of ice.

Never set up a tent in a lean-to, most lean-to's are off the ground and the wind will get you, it's better to setup your tent on the ground and use good matresses.
The one extra thing I do take is a second matress. Closed cell foam is better than open cell – a combination is even better!”

“I also use a thermarest in winter. I use a thermarest 3/4 LE in combo with a blue foam cut in half. The thermarest seems to give me plenty of insulation (1.5 winters now using it on snow) and cushion too. The half blue foam is for whatever dosen't fit on the thermarest (my legs from the knees down). I keep the blue foam on the outside of my pack to use for rest breaks to sit on or stand on.”

“I wait til the snow melts and it's Spring before I venture out into the wilderness.”

“OK, just ordered the Climb High booties. They are a couple bucks cheaper than the SD booties, are GOOSE down, not the clearly inferior duck down (sorry Donald), and, according to specs, weigh about half of the SD ones. Plus, a couple of TTers say they are OK!!”

“lol...I just ordered the Climb High booties also. Campmor is wondering why they are getting all of these orders for those booties all at one time.”

“A mouse pad makes a great insulator for a stove on the snow.

I've always just used a Thermarest 3/4 with a space blanket under it and my pack under my calves and feet. Never been cold in a tent, shelter, or on the snow.

Re sweating: A long time ago I read in s'posedly knowledgeable bping book that if you wore a vapor barrier next to your skin, some sort of humidity equilibrium would be set up after you started sweating that would prevent further sweating. I sweat profusely summer or winter - if it's 60 in the shade and I'm sitting around doing nothing, I'll break out into a sweat. So, I figured, what the heck, I'll give it a try. Put a plastic trash bag next to my skin and set out on a hike. Equilibrium never occurred. Sweat kept coming, condensed on the plastic, ran down that and into my pants and down my legs all day. Needless to say, I don't do that anymore! Unless it's blizzard conditions, I usually winter hike in shorts and long johns, light polarfleece shirt and vest, if needed, and have warmer stuff very handy to put on when I stop.

Re down booties: Mine are old; I think they're SD's with what appears to be a cordura sole. If you have a sole like that, crisscross it with Seam Grip for traction. "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" had a report a few years back about some poor soul who stepped out of his tent with booties on, and promptly slid off Mt Rainier.

Lots of good info on this thread, most of it obviously learned through experience.”

“AMY G :
I also use both the combo 3/4 TR and a Z-rest not too heavy and much warmer/more comfy than either alone. BTW my down booties are the Sierra Designs, they have a fairly smooth rubber sole, love em but your feet do slide around in them a lot, could use some sort of slipper inside”

“On my early trips I brought some food that didn't work. Bagels and sandwich fixins all froze and I got tired of thawing lunch in my armpits.
We eat almost constantly below zero. Dinners are hours long, and while we're eating we're melting snow for water. The last of the water is made for hot water bottles in bed.”

“My winter bag usually goes up quite a bit in winter. (A heavier bag, coat, crampons, snowshoes)In summer,it may be discomfort but in winter things may become dire. I'll never forego a water filter unless I bring enough with me. No backcountry water is safe. I've always used 50/50 pants hiking, including today in 10 degree weather. I'll grant you that you're not supposed to set up a tent in leanto's (impolite & against rules) but being off the ground, a wood floor, non-collapsible by wind or snowfall...they are excellent for winter use. In summer they attract a lot of critters.I would never take a chance on a leaking water bottle inside my sleeping bag in winter. What would you do then? Each to their own views, but I consider water an extreme danger in winter. Whether it be streams, lakes or water bottles that can soak vital items.”

“Catshiker


I put my water bottles (heated) inside my sleeping bag stuff sack, and then in the bottom of my sleeping bag.


I do not expect catastrophic leakage of the bottles (i.e. a burst water bottle that hemoraghes 1 liter all over your stuff); the most I am afeerd of is some leakage around the seal. I seal it tight, check it three times, put it in the water resistant stuff sack and go to sleep.

My boots usually go under the end of my bag, sometimes inside it. But they are usually so trashed and muddy (except in deep, consistent snow cover) that putting them in my sleeping bag doesn't fly.

Two sleeping pads. The closed cell vs air mattress (thermarest) I believe is a heat retention issue.

It is my understanding that the thermarest, being filled with air, conducts the heat away from your body all night. The closed cell (foam) pads do not transmit heat as quickly.

Then there is the debate about which you put on the ground, and which goes on top (if you are carrying two pads.).

The Gear Guy at Outside Magazine online did a piece on it some time ago.

It may be in their archive.

Bottom line was . . .with one pad, closed cell foam is better. With two pads, a closed cell and a thermarest . . .it didn't matter which went down first.”

“The VBL bag for the inside of the sleeping bag. Campmor sells one, for $21 is this the right one?”

“THis is not how i remember it. Oh well.

The cut and paste from the Gear Guy:

Why do I feel colder sleeping on my Therm-A-Rest UltraLite (R-Value:1.7-2.6) than on a closed-cell foam pad like the Evazote (R-Value: 1.36)? What do you suggest as the best pad to use in sub-zero temperatures? Thank You!

— Kenneth Toronto, Ontario

That's an excellent question. Obviously, assuming the makers of the Therm-A-Rest are accurate with the R-values (a measure of how much insulation a given material offers —- the higher the number, the better), then you should indeed be warmer on the Therm-A-Rest than the closed-cell pad. But there are wild cards, such as ambient temperature, your physical condition on a particular night, what you ate for dinner, what you were wearing in the sleeping bag, etc. To really come up with a definitive answer as to whether it's the pad or you, you'd need to stick a digital thermometer up some orifice on your body, then hop back and for the between identical sleeping bags on different pads. Otherwise, I really can't account for the difference —- the pad with the higher R-value should have been warmer, period.

As for the best pad in sub-zero weather, my answer is this: Take two pads. Take the Therm-A-Rest AND the Evazote. In very cold weather, that's where you need the most insulation. It's an extra pound to pack, but well worth it. I usually put the inflatable pad on the ground with the closed-cell pad on top of it, but there's no underlying logic to that scheme —- either one on the top or bottom should result in the same insulation.”

“MEC makes an Evazote winter pad 15mm thick that is really nice. Much better quality than the blue pads people are used to seeing. It's the same foam they use in pack hipbelts, very resilient. I bought the pad not to sleep on, but to make pack hipbelts out of. Now I feel like getting one to sleep on since it's so nice.”

“I did try and find out that the 4x6 Hot Hands work all night in your boots with a sock stuffed in side each one. They were still warm early the next morning and my boots were toasty. Still had enough heet to keep my hands warm as I placed one in each pocket of my fleece jacket.
Eat lots of salty food before bed helped keep me warm and didn't have to get up and pee.
Wear a hat or baclava while sleeping.
Water in my canteen stayed thawed inside my bag, but I didn't trust the platypus so I emptied it and blew in some air and instant pillow.”

“I've been using a E blanket for everything from a footprint for the tent to a shelter when in bivy. Its heavy duty and bulky but goes everytime.


I would like to believe that breathing thru my balaclava or a make shift draft collar/scarf out of other apparel would lessen the amount of moisture emitted while sleeping. I also will use remaining clothing, jackets and whatnot, as insulation from the ground around the feet or where every.

Hopping while in your sleeping bag to a adequate urination zone is doable.

Avoid tight socks and boots. Give your 'dawgs' a vigorous rubdown, AM and PM, they'll thank you later. I never lace my boots up tight until they and feet have warmed up enough. Also think about loosing the lace above the toe box if possible with your boot. Just alittle more wiggle than usual. Better yet get a bigger boot.”

“this thread is great...thanks everyone for contributing!”

“I think I may have to invest in that vapor bag that Lyndy posted. I just love ducking my head into my sleeping bag too much. :-)”

“Why not try a 4x6" chem heat pack? They last 20 or more hours & you can save them for future use in a zip lock bag.(cutting off air supply) They are about $1 ea, but cheaper off season or bulk. Very, very warm & no chance of water leakage. I once had to un-zip my (-35 degree bag) on the 3rd night. I had gotten too much moisture into the insulation & was cold. I popped a 4x6" heat pack in and had to unzip my bag in -20 degree damp weather. I like closed cell foam for the same reason that it can't absorb water, but I need a thermorest on top because I'm 50 years old. :-)”

“I must confess, I bought an Exped Down Filled Air Mattress. I've used it a near freezing temps and it was awesome. Need to get out and try it snow camping.”

“If you use a VB liner don't stick your head inside of it and breathe because moisture will build too fast and you will feel wet. These are non breathable coated nylon sacks meant to prevent evaporative heat loss. In other words body moisture cannot penetrate the liner and go into your bag. You cannot wear clothing inside a VB liner because your body moisture will wet them. Just wear polypro long tops and bottoms, but no more than that. Use them in very cold weather or with a bag when you are pushing its temperature limits. Otherwise you will be too warm and you will likely sweat in it.”

“How can a candle eliminate condensation? I put out a lot even in winter sleeping, condensation is removed by 1)air movement 2)heat or evaporation is what I have been taught. I would like to hear from those of you who have actually tried this method.

Footwarmers..... My wife wants to know what other methods she can use to keep her feet warm at night.
also do the hot water bottles after a period of time cool off & then keep you "Cool" or do they last through the night. This could also help me in the long run as I act as a heat source for her feet and boy are they cold !! At the same time I am comfy!”

“I agree with richb, VBLs work best when you are dealing with really, really low temperatures. I used one in -20 temps in the ADK and I don't think it did a whole lot except make me wet. How about the best sleeping bag that you can buy only for winter use because they are soo bulky. I have a tendency to think that you are only going to keep as warm in the bag as much as you can get your internal body temp stoked up and that has alot to do with whether you are a warm or cold sleeper. It's also better to wear loose fitting clothes that cover your body to trap air, rather than wearing multiple layers or restrictive clothing that will cut off circulation to your extremities.

I like cold beverages, I like cold beverages!”

“Capn Bob - G Love and the Special Sauce, right?

Thanks richb, that makes sense.

Muttley - In my limited experience, the bottles are luke warm by the time I wake up in the morning. This has been my experience in 10-15 degree temperatures thus far.

Last weekend, it got down to 10 degrees. I had put a Nalgene bottle with boiling water in my bag at around 8 - 8:30pm and went to bed around 9:30 or 10pm. I woke up and had to pee at about 2am, and noted that the bottle was still decently warm (no I didn't pee in it in my sleep).”

“G Love Rocks! "Stick it in the snow, stick it in the snow, stick it in the snow!"

I got a great tip from a Thruhiker from Maine named Ashby. He said in the winter he would get two hunks of soapstone and stick them in the fire for awhile and then take the soapstone out of the firepit and wrap them in newspaper or socks and put them in his boots for the night to keep them from freezing. I thought it a good idea, but never tried it. There's something about having to carry any form of rock or stone in my pack that gives me an uneasy feeling!

Anyone know where to buy soapstone, I've never seen the stuff?”

“some people use soapstone for carving. You might be able to find it in an art supply store.”

“muttley
While the candle lantern doesn't kick off that much heat, it does help. Mostly though, it cuts down on condensation by burning off moisture inside the tent. Anyone who has ever Winter camped can probably tell you about the "snowing inside your tent" effect. I won't tell you that you don't get some frost at times, but it doesn't snow if you use the lantern. Of course, you must be verrry careful how you rig the lantern to prevent burning the house down!
(felt the need to add a liability waiver there, lol!)

Dare is also the victim source of my warming my cold feet at night. It works for me...
;)
(down booties and heat warming pads are a must for cold-feet people!)

Pathoman - a DOWN-FILLED air mattress?!! That ROCKS!!!
Maybe I can get Dare to buy me one for my birthday...
*”

“Yes, there is nothing quite like the feeling of corpes feet on you in the middle of the night.....

But there are other heating benefits of zipping in with someone...... :o)~”

“Pitch a tent, you two.....”

“I was cold camped out in around 17-degre weather in my zero-degree, sleeping bag, with 3/4-lenth Thermarest. Course, the tent is two-person and pretty big, but it was just me. (The idea of just putting up the fly is intriguing)
Now I will use Thermarest and blue WalMart pad. Have ordered a -15 down bag which is not here yet. Also, purchased Vasque Arctics, which I think are good to -20 at Campmore. They're very stiff. I find, like someone else mentioned on here, that if you leave a little play in the upper lacing, it helps your feet have more room to move, which seems to be a good thing.

Very VERY good ideas here!!”

“Question about putting the little hot packs in your boots overnight: Do the packs actually generate enough heat to dry out damp boots?”

“I have used them for boots that were just a bit damp and they worked. But I also put the boots in plastic (not sealed) bags and put them in my sleeping bag. Not sure which it was that really did the trick though, since I did both.”

“i've never put my boots in my sleeping bag, sounds like a lot of people do. just might try that next time.”

“I can't even say, what is running on in my mind regarding the olive oil body rub down...OMG!!!!

thats almost as enticing as a good herseys chocolate body rubdown...

OMG!!!! Ican't believe you even wrote that...OMG!!! ROFLMAO!!!”

“(if you're hiking with stikmon and lizs, don't offer them any chocolate!)”

“(and now you know why you smell olive oil all the time when you're around them)”

“stikmon is having a hard













time thinking about his work right now. :-)”

“LMAO, Lizs!”

“Youknow stikmon ...

I wasn't gonna be the first to jump on dat (PUN) . . .butt, now that you have . . .

Twinkle is very attractive (pict.s from the last trip) . . .even more so when one pictures her . . .







never mind.”

“Liz --

oh . . .and if YOU are wondering . . .women in olive oil is EXACTLY what men talk about in the locker room.


No lie. The other day was a discussion of a woman who just joined; we all concluded (after much research and observation) that she had just had a boob job.

Another fun topic is the woman who had her kids names tattooed on the small of her back/butt. You can't see them all the time . . .just some of the time . . ..

of course, the day after she got it done she was showing it off . . .”

“I'm so distracted by visions of twinkle toes wearing a layer of extra vigin olive oil...OMG!!!! Too funny....

HMMMMM>...note to lizs...bring the olive oil next time.

can olive oil be used as a waterproofing agent....hmmmmm....waterproof your naked body with...extra virgin olive oil...OMG!!!!”

“Question: if you decide to bring along an extra virgin on a backpacking trip, do you carry her inside your pack, or do you strap her onto the outside?

I guess "her" could just as easily be "he," depending on your preference.”

“Doh! Just saw the rest of the phrase, "extra virgin olive oil." Sorry....”

“pick up lines at tent sties and shelters in the backwoods


hey babee hey babee . . .want me to water proof you with dis here xtry virgin olive oil???”

“Anyone use a space blanket to up their bag's temp rating?”

“More importantly, will extra virgin olive oil do any damage to either the bad or the space blanket?”

“oops, bag, not bad, lol...”

“ewww...

rancid oil in a down bag!”

“Phaedrus --
as much as I regret having to pause in my olive oil/twinkletoe fantaises.


Yes.

I always carry a space blanket. Foil on one side, bright orange on the other.

I use it for everything. It is probably the most useful (from a multi-purpose perspective) thing I bring.

A place to dump all my stuff while a sort through

a place sit to keep off the cold ground

heat reflector underneath sleeping pad in a platform shelter

and yes,

Inside my bag. Only once. I gave up. It worked, but was driving me nuts. The crinkle rulstel factor every time i moved.

I was driving my tent mate nuts too.


I have often used it on the outside of my bag. I wrap it around and tuck it underneath the edgesof my pad to hold it in place. Definelty not as heat efficient as wrapping YOURSELF with it, inside your bag . . .but an okay comprimise on the noise/comfort factor.

I would use it inside the bag again if I had to. My bag is 15 degrees, I have been out down to single digits with it.”

“Space blanket on the outside of your bag will trap condensation and leave the outside of the bag damp in the AM.

Not good for longer trips as the moisture trapped inside will start collapse of the down and make the bag colder, and increase the weight of the bag each night.

I have done so when sleeping in a lean-to and snow started drifting in.”