Dubya apologists, let's hear your spin P art II

“Mutt, having debated this with arclite for some time (and defending the terms), I became convinced that his position (and yours) is correct.”

“Interesting, Chili. From my perspective there's too many dimensions in one's political makeup for an overarching label to be very meaningful. For example, I'm left of center on some social issues, and I'm right of center on some economic and foreign policy issues. What does that make me?

And why did you end up changing your mind on the issue?”

“Strat there's still a few of us out here, it just gets tiring after a while... I second your SIGH...

"if you're young and conservative, you have no heart; and that if you're old and liberal, you have no brain" ...Winston Churchill

I'll take the no heart I guess...”

“Good call rosey. Anyone who would post photos on the Roe v. Wade thread should be forced to take his own medicine.

Peter Turnley has put together an exhibit of photos he took after the Gulf War. That one was far more justified than what is being contemplated today, but the results were pretty horific. The exhibit should probably not be viewed by children or sensitive adults but anyone who is pushing for quick action today should really take a look. There are real, living breathing humans with souls involved.”

“Thanks for the link Violin. Now imagine that times 100 because this time, the war ain't gonna be in the middle of the desert. It's gonna be in the middle of Baghdad and there's gonna be a lot more burnt bodies of women and children laying around.”

“And why did you end up changing your mind on the issue?"
Mutt
11:26:40 AM
01/24/03

Because good debate should cause one to at least examine his own position. After the somewhat heated and lengthy exchange with arclite, I realized his argument made more sense than my own.

You summed it up very well in fewer words however, LOL.”

“Great link, Violin. Very moving pictures. I did support the Gulf War, that was a different situation. He!!, me and some buddies of mine almost signed up fer that one. I am very much in the middle on this subject. I do believe that at some point, Saddam must be dealt with, however, this seems a little empty. Anytime the Governemt sez "Don't worry, just me, we have the proof, we'll show you when the time comes", I worry.....


There just seems to be something very wrong here, but I just can't put my finger on it. When people start blindly following Georgie and the Croonies, Why do I feel that there's grape Kool-Aide at the end of the story???”

“Mutt asked:
"gojo: 300 septillion square miles?"

Hell yes! You ever been to the coast? Dood, you can't even see the other side. That's gotta be some big water!


Violin sez:
"Peter Turnley has put together an exhibit of photos he took after the Gulf War. That one was far more justified than what is being contemplated today, but the results were pretty horific. The exhibit should probably not be viewed by children or sensitive adults but anyone who is pushing for quick action today should really take a look.

"horrific"?
War is Hell. Did you not know that?
I thought the pics were pretty cool. Jesus H. Christ - when will the world ever learn not to MESS WITH AMERICA?! Good God almighty - we kicked some serious a$$ in '91.

Imagine being one of those animals that were in the caravan fleeing Kuwait. Holy schmoly! Imagine what was going through their heads (before the bullets) while the A-10s, Apaches, F-16s, etc, were ripping their sick world apart. That must of been Hell. Good. They deserved it. May God have mercy on their souls, tho.

"There are real, living breathing humans with souls involved."

And the victims of 9/11 were chopped liver? People, WAKE UP!
If Saddam Hussein gets the chance to arm the next terrorists, he'll do it for crying out loud!
Wheredafuh have y'all been? Can you not see the writing on the wall? Are you not aware that the Arab world has us in their (far inferior - for now) sights? Do you not know that GWB has an obligation to free the world of tyranny? Are you not aware of the potential destructiveness of modern-day "pirates"?

Was 9/11 NOT a wake up call for you?

Are you not aware that the terrorists of 9/11 used as much force as they were able to amass? Do you not think they would have used nukes if available?! CAN YOU FREAKIN' NOT IMAGINE THE DESTRUCTION A WMD COULD UNLEASH ON OUR PEOPLE?

You make me want to walk up to the nearest whiney-@$$, bed wetting, anti-freedom, "PC", sympathy-aimed-backward, over-sensitivity-trained, faint-at-the-sight-of-blood, blinded-to-the-truth, coddlesome, candy-a$$ed, girly-man and slap him so freakin' hard that he starves to death before he stops rolling.

G'day.”

“I am sufficiently awed.

Gojo, if I were a woman, I'd be ovulating for you RIGHT NOW.”

“Yeah, I know.

My wall-mounted Testostrometer is pegging-out as I speak.”

“lmao gojo!


mutt, you are the idiot if you can't see someone's point when it's very simple and clear. the protest, the rigged polls, it's all a sham. they are 'renta-protestors'. nothing more than seminar callers to cspan. their job is to whip you into a frenzy and antagonize this president in any and every way possible. not all of them, but the leaders of them. i repeat, i dont think they all do it. i really don't care if you think i'm an idiot or not mutt so keep you insults to yourself. and a liberal is someone who is liberal. what's so hard to understand? and why are liberals always afraid to admit it? i'm liberal on a couple of things but i tend to agree with the conservative argument most of the time. it's nothing to do with republicans or certain poloticians, it's the argument, the idea that i agree with. it doesn't make me stupid or bad, just like being liberal doesn't make you stupid or bad. there are good and bad everywhere. i think your debateing style is immature. it's like you pretend i didn't say anything. chilie seems to be one of the few who usually can disaree with respect and thought at the same time. like he said, i'm trying to make everyone take a look at their own position, by considering my position. i want good debate, not insult contest, i can be as nasty and degrading as the next guy but thats just stupid.


rosey, you show me here, copy paste my words where i said the government should outlaw abortion. you show me where i said like violence and death. you seem mean hearted and bitter....


violin, good pics. glad it wasn't me that invaded kuwait! WHEW!



if ya'll wanna just talk, i'm all for it, otherwise, i'm gonna take a hike...”

“Gojo:

I'm sure when you rub one out, this is the face you see...

”

“Uh, Gojo. The people of Iraq didn't fly those planes into the WTC (that I know of but if you have some proof, please share.)”

“I take back my last post. I wasn't gonna post to this thread. (take-backs are allowed here, aren't they?)”

“chilie seems to be one of the few who usually can disaree with respect and thought at the same time.


stradewd, you ingnorant slut....how dare you allege that I have tact!





j/k ;-)

thanks for the compliment”

“"you seem mean hearted and bitter...."

Damn straight, Strat -- about the way America is being run and about the way people like yourself are willing to accept it. No doubt about it.”

“and a liberal is someone who is liberal. what's so hard to understand? and why are liberals always afraid to admit it?

WELL THAT PRETTY MUCH CLEARS IT UP!”

“GIDDEYAP, NUCULAR SILVER AWAY!”

“I feel vindicated and frustrated at the same time...

I've been mad and worried about terrorism happening in America since 1982. We've been targeted and attacked a number of times, but it wasn't until 9/11 that politicians took it at all seriously.

Now this neo conservative movement (which sounds much like the KKK platform of the 20's - 50's) seems to be dictating Republican politics. I'm bothered by this because it's reactionary and based in idea, not in fact.

Here are the facts as we know them:
1)On September 11, 2001 we were attacked by members of Al Queda

2)We had several indications this was going to occur ahead of time. Examples: stock shorting of effected airlines, FBI identifying of some of the terrorists, FBI memos, James Woods seeing and reporting 2 of the terrorists staking out a plane.

3)Several of the terrorists were staying on expired visas

4)Many of them were Saudi nationals, Osama bin Laden is a Saudi national with a lot of U.S. money

5)there has been no connection made between 9/11 or Al Queda and Saddam Hussein

6)GHW Bush lied to the American people prior to Desert Storm to get support (remember Iraqis dumping Kuwaiti babies out of incubators... never happened)

7)"Chemical warheads" that were found last week were actually 120mm close support artillery rockets (rockets are unguided and have a 5mile range)

8)Al Queda cells are operating all over the world

I'm not a liberal... but I see this as politically/financially driven. I cannot trust a President that never finished his Military Service (AWOL) if his Military advisors don't agree with him and he won't present evidence”

“State your source! I don't believe those were rockets! I was in the military and they sure looked like bombs to me.

As far as evidence, Bush isn't going to reveal his sources and get them killed. He can't show satilite photos because we'll give up just how good our satilites really are. The administration has already said they've got more intelligence from Iraqi defectors than from U.N. euro panty waist inspectors. The fact that Hussein had four years without the inspectors to hide his WMD underground and out of harms way means no inspector is going to find didley. Have the inspectors been looking underground? No they have not. It's all a game until we can get our military over there and ready to go. If I were an inspector I wouldn't want to find any WMD anyway. As soon as I did I'm sure Hussein would have me killed. What's he go to lose?”

“good one ultrapecker


don...the democratic party would like to inform you that you just passed the liberal entrance exam......


i can see debating this possible war but how can anyone defend iraq invading kuwait? WHEW!


chilie, your welcome. i jus't don't want people ending up hating me cuz of my opinions. it's not worth it and i'd rather not talk about it if that's what happens cuz i may meet some of these people sometime. i get tired of the nastyness sometimes..... soemtimes i'm the guilty one too, and i apologized to anyone who i've offended.


now.....where was i? oh yeah!







you're all full of dogdookie.....”

“"i can see debating this possible war but how can anyone defend iraq invading kuwait? WHEW!"

Are you talking about a dream or hallucination you had? This never happened here.”

“Like it or not people, we are going to war with Iraq. Read the papers. The war is almost upon us.
Screw the Super Bowl, let see some devastation unleashed by our military. Next stop, North Korea.”

“Strat, you're such a neocon! where did you see me or anyone defend the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait?

Bush LIED, it's documented, and you new Conservative p*ssies who didn't serve in the Gulf (yes I was decorated for Gulf war service, even though I wasn't there... isn't that cute) are pounding war drums for something you're making up... Oh I think I joined and quit the military and the Republican party before you could vote...

www.michaelsavagesucks.com”

“Sorry for not reading either of the 'George Bush Appologist Threads.'

No one needs to appogize for George W. Bush. George W. Bush is not a sexual predator.

The inference betrays the what is wrong with the liberals in this country. They cannot distinquish the differenced between morals from ideals.”

“Bush is an AWOL traitor, a corrupt business man, and a liar with a criminal record.

This is not in defense of any other President. I just wish the people that so easily attacked Clinton would be intellectually honest... but then again it's been a few years since the GOP (or Democrats for that matter) were even aware of the concept of honesty or integrity...

Signed,
Your independent candidate

PS. I've smoked pot, and liked it. I've had sexual relations with that woman, and that one, and that one, and that one...”

“You sure those were women?

I bet you would of been against a pre 9/11 attack on Afghanistan too. Bush would of been trying to corner the market on camel dung or something.

I served in the Gulf duing Desert Storm. We should of kept up the killing then but I'm sure you liberal weenies would of been crying, Oh please let the killing stop!!! It makes me wanna puke.

When Saddam unleashes chemicals on our troops after we invade, what excuse will you slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, queer-for-your-brother liberals going to say then? Well, where the hell did he get those? No, it'll probably be more like, well the Bush invaders deserved it.”

“And the conservatives can't distinguish between selfishness and self-righteousness.

Good to see you again bacpac. Now go away again. :)”

“And the conservatives can't distinguish between selfishness and self-righteousness.

Good to see you again bacpac. Now go away again. :)"
Phaedrus
03:49:35 PM
01/25/03


There is a difference?

Liberals confuse liberalism with Liberty.”

“I know you are but what am I?!”

“the Gulf War was stopped by the Republicans... Saddam should have been ousted then...

Afghanistan is actually in a perfect position for an oil pipeline...

BTW, Saddams chemical warfare program was started by the U.S. when we were 'friends' with Saddam

Are you gonna be crying when the Al Qaeda units in Pakistan create riots and take over the government and start nuking people after we go into Iraq?

The issue is and has been global terrorism, when we begin to deal with the issue I'll be happy.”

“the Gulf War was stopped by the Republicans... Saddam should have been ousted then...

Donman
05:58:43 PM
01/25/03

You could use a lesson in history.

I might want to give you one.

Idiot.”

“good to see you back, bacpac....


stratdewd needed another ally....”

“welcome back, bacpac ole buddy.....


6)GHW Bush lied to the American people prior to Desert Storm to get support (remember Iraqis dumping Kuwaiti babies out of incubators... never happened)

don.....call me what you like. you think since bush sr lied about babies in incubators, we should leave saddam alone. what other inference am i to make from that statement? that's your conclusion. that's your point. if that's not your point, what is your point? saddam was nice when he invaded kuwait? that he followed the "invading ediquit"? is that what your saying? that he's an honest invader and bush is a dishonest invader? what the heck does that have to do with this war? you think the left doesn't lie? should i debate every issue on the terms of he did this, so we shouldn't do that? it's like the ole "your old lady it too" excuse. sadam husein bragged about paying the families of hamas suicide bombers for their martordom. and this was 6 or 8 months ago, not 12 years ago like your whining about.i saw the story on all the news shows, even the liberal ones(CNN , ABC, NBC, CBS) that is supporting terrorism. end of story, adios amigos. the apologist for tyrants will one day realize the gravity of their mistaken and misdirected paranoia....



now, about me being a pu$$y.....it seems to me that your too pu$$y to defend yourself from a pissant like husein.


ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ IT 5 TIMES, AND THINK ABOUT IT SERIOUSLY......


the dems only hopes of gaining power are A) for the economy to go bad and B) for this iraq situation to go bad. and every day they do everything possible to make these things go bad. dragging the whole nation down, in order to gain power. making people... real life citizens suffer in order to make their 'enemy' look bad. it's really sad that you buy into it and that the liberal leadership doesn't care any more about america than that. many liberals would trample over 1,000 poor people to throw a rock at a republican..... that's what you are doing by supporting these people. and i promise you i ain't no pu$$y.....(REALLY HOLDING MY TOUNGE HERE!)”

“stratdewd, I like you...I count you among my friends,,,,I respect your opinion....


but the last paragraph of that last post was pure bull#&%!$.”

“I'm not supporting any of them... I wish you would take the time to drop your dogma a second and think about it.

The country is in a bad way because politicians of both parties are selling us out for other interests.

Saddam should be dealt with, but since we still have terrorists on American soil, terrorists very close to nuclear weapons in Pakistan, Kuwaitis and Pakistanis firing on American troops I think to focus our power Iraq is a tactical error, the military believes it's a tactical error, so I don't think we should be letting a Vietnam era traitor make military decisions.


President Bush
Q&A on end of the Persian Gulf War

Q. Why did you end the war when you did, instead of going on to Baghdad to get Saddam Hussein?

A. It was never part of our mission to take Baghdad. We stopped the war when we achieved our objectives -- to liberate Kuwait and destroy Iraq's offensive military capability, its ability to threaten its neighbors. That was the mission agreed to by Congress, the United Nations, and our coalition partners, and supported overwhelmingly by the American people.

We ended the war when the enemy was defeated. It was a unanimous recommendation of Secretary Cheney, General Powell, and General Schwarzkopf.

To then ask American troops to continue their combat operations, to continue the killing and the destruction, was not something we were eager to do. There is a basic decency to our men and women in uniform. They quickly made the transition from being warriors to being angels of mercy, taking care of the thousands of surrendering Iraqi prisoners. The pictures of those young Americans caring for the Iraqi soldiers were some of the most poignant images of the war.

If we had kept going, we would have gone beyond what we said we intended to do, beyond what our coalition partners agreed to, beyond what the UN Security Council signed up to, and beyond what the Congress and the American people approved. We entered the war with clear-cut military objectives.

We certainly had the military capability to go on to Baghdad, but for what purpose? To get Saddam Hussein? I doubt that he would have waited at his palace for us to drive up and get him. So we would have needed to send a very large force and might well have faced intensive combat inside the city. The artillery, tanks, and air power that performed so well for us in the open desert would not have been very useful inside a major city. That would have cost us dearly in terms of additional casualties. And I'm not sure what we would have done with Baghdad, once we had it.

But once we had prevailed and had toppled Saddam Hussein's government, we presumably would have had to stay there and put another government in place. And what would that have been: a Suni government, a Shia government, a Kurdish government, or another Bathist regime? How long would US forces have been required to say in to prop the government up? And how effective could it have been if the government we put in had been perceived as a puppet of the US military?

My guess is that if we had gone to Baghdad, we'd still have US forces there today. And to involve American forces in a civil war inside Iraq would have been a quagmire, because we would have gone in there with no clear-cut military objective. It's just as important to know when not to use force as it is to know when to use it. And we got it right both times.


Bacpac... he said it not me

www.michaelsavagesucks.com

btw, did you know his real lastname was weiner??”

“same here chilie, but it's the truth. you watch tom dashels daily pres breifings? you watch tom brokaw, or dan rather or any of them and every single day they chip away at the stone. all they gotta do is place a tiny bit of doupt in peoples minds...every day....and it all adds up. i'm talkin leadership here chilie, not rank and file people....it's a conserted effort and it's very effective. they give war protestors all this press, they overilluminate(i just made that word up, just noe...WOW!) bad news ans burry the good news on the 14th page. then there's the hollywood croud. like i'm gonna trust barbara striesand soicolli when it comes to anything. they are so outta touch it's pathetic. i could give you examples out that ars if you really want to look at them with an open mind. their whole existance relies on peoples suffering to continue.

think of i this way...what if everything was great? why vote for them when everything's great? why not keep the guy in that's doing a good job? they have to make everyone miserable so people will blame bush and vote him out. i calls um likes i sees um.....


now, tell me where i'm wrong.....


ps.....did you read it 5 times ?”

“savage rocks....


and we had an unconditional cease fire with iraq. it was unconditional, meaning they had no choicec, we end it on our terms...which were...let inspectors have unfettered access to show your not harboring WMD. i agre with alot of what you just said don, but the fact is that iraq broke this unconditional the the security counsel of the UN voted for unanimously.


iraq said..PLEASE STOP!


we said...ok, but we wanna do inspections...


they said..OK OK JUST STOP!


we said..ok here come the inspectors


they said...we dont' want inspectors anymore, they must leave

we said(after 4 years of them hiding and building bad things) ok, that's it...we're coming back in


they said(and you).... no no, you must go through the UN

we said...ok

the UN said...send them in


we said...ok


iraq said...we only have these widgets for weapons


inspectors said...what about these warheads? what about what the defecting iraqi sceintists tols us about, what about our satalite photos, our intell, all the #&%!$ that was documented before?


have you seen or read "the sum of all fears"? i suggest you go rent it tonight and think real hard about what's at stake here.....”

“"I'll be in San Diego protesting the organized indoctrination of violence into your children's lives that they call the Superbowl just like every good liberal.

Oh wait... I'll be sitting in a bar yelling for Warren Sapp to beat down Rich Gannon, rip off one of his legs and beat him with it"
Donman


LMFAO don! that was halarrious, but i gotta say it...















GOTCHAaaaAAAaaaaa.........”

“Strat I believe your right that those are the only hope that them democrats have to regain power, but that is true of either party when it is out of power. Carter won because of Watergate, Reagan won because of the economy and the hostage situation. Bush won because people thought he would pick the economy back up which was going down as Reagan left office. Clinton won both of his elections because of the economy and Bush won because Clinton was a liar who couldn’t keep his dink in his pants and Gore was too closely aligned to him. Both parties are equally guilty of trying to undermine the other to gain power. No one party has a monopoly on that. This nonsense that one party has a moral higher ground then the other is ridiculous.”

“must, i'd agree with that statement. i'm actually more of an libertarian , personally.....the fact is that men are falable. that's why our system is set up the way it is. so the gubment wont run amuk and can be corrected if it tries. i just happen to think that the democrats would run far amukker than the republicans, so i vote republican so the dems won't win...


ps, i do actually vote for some democrats, i voted for a couple in local elections this past november, in fact. i thought they were the better choice for that office.”

“Strat... I actually like you a lot... but don't suggest reading Clancy as a primer on foreign policy, it's fiction.

You are right... Saddam Hussein is a freakin' menace and an idiot. But a lot of people smarter than me feel his aim is now and has always been "safe" power. He likes being on top of oil, of course he can't sell much now. He does not want world domination (except maybe monetarily, he'd like to be in SA's situation), this is speculation however, as is the argument that he's looking to nuke the free world.

SA on the other hand is supporting terrorism (PBS Frontline did a great job on this), U.S. dollars are helping them. It doesn't take much to prove that SA is very closely linked to 9/11, and the first World Trade Center bombing.

Wahab Muslims are saying we're the friggin' devil and all that. They are saying we're trying to take over the Muslim world, they use Israel and SA as examples, Iraq too. When we go in there again, and set up a provisional government (I hope this one is better than Castro!) Wahab clerics will tell them Iran, Pakistan, BFEistan is next and start the riots they ALWAYS start when we operate in that part of the world...
Pakistan has nukes, SA has our oil, BFEistan is right next to them....

I would rather we find a Kurdish patsy and have him roll up on Saddam and pop a cap on him...

if we take direct action we open the terrorist floodgates, we still haven't done to much to check out foreign nationals... we're about to give them drivers licenses for petes sake”

“I love this quote:

And to involve American forces in a civil war inside Iraq would have been a quagmire, because we would have gone in there with no clear-cut military objective.

I can hear it from here:

Buuuut Daaaaaaad!!!”

“"they do everything possible to make these things go bad. dragging the whole nation down, in order to gain power. making people... real life citizens suffer in order to make their 'enemy' look bad."

Like leaving 52 citizens in captivity for 444 days? The timing of the release is curious to any thinking person.”

“It's a good thing you're not a thinker than, isn't it.”

“violin, your livin the past maaaahaaan...carter's gone dood.....move on, it's over...



don, about clancy...i read that book years ago and thought it was cool but i saw the movie this weekend and seeing a nuke blow up baltimore and the superbowl really made an impression on me...and if you'l recall, he wrote a book 10 years ago in which a bad guy flew an airliner into the capitol building...i'd say that makes him pretty astute.....i'm not saying use his material for foreign policy it's just that his books just make you understand how it's possible to happen....



i agree, we oughtta cap sudam, that's a great idea, but i disagree with your thought of not taking action because we are afraid of their retaliation. hussein has known ties to alqueda, supports homicide bombers, and therefore is already a threat, IMO....”

“Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions, there strat.”

“Somebody wrote:
"2)We had several indications this was going to occur ahead of time. Examples: stock shorting of effected airlines, FBI identifying of some of the terrorists, FBI memos, James Woods seeing and reporting 2 of the terrorists staking out a plane."

You see the cup half empty. I see it half full.
In other words, we were actually on the trail to something BIG! We weren't sure exactly where it was going, but we were beginning to put some pieces together; connect some dots. In time, the variuos agencies would have gathered enough information to foil the terrorists plan. But alas, time, O fleeting time! Was not on our side...

"Department of Homeland Security".
I like the sound of that...

I say "cudos" to the things we were doing prior to 9/11. Nevertheless, we were caught off guard. We must make EVERY EFFORT to insure that 9/11esque events never again occur on our soil.


Perhaps the terrorists were better students of history than many of us here seem to be. Perhaps they decided to use similar tactics to those used by the Japs pre-12/7/41:
"Information Overload".

The Japanese clogged the airwaves across the Pacific with TONS of modulatin'. The US knew something was up. What, exactly? NO BODY KNEW!...or did they?

After the attack, hindsight was (gasp here) 20/20. Imagine that:
"Monday Morning Quarterbacks".

I can hear the masses now:
"Whadafuh! Admiral so-and-so said such-and-such on 11/30/41! That beeyastad knew yaddayadda! I read it in the Almanac, so it must be true!"

Or "Secretary of War ignored a memo from Secretary of Information which he had passed on from Secretary of Snooping Around the Pacific which was from Secretary of Stinky Butts...".

Perhaps Al whatchucallit deliberately laid breadcrumbs up deadend trails, or whatever:

The Japs intentionally put so much radio static out that we could have never put the pieces together in time. Never.

Or could we?

What happened?
Pearl Harbor.
PEARL FREAKIN' HARBOR!
The HEART of the Pacific Fleet. The Pacific! Japan's ocean!
How in the name of God did we NOT see THAT ONE coming? It's AB-SO-LUTELY mind boggling...

So, please. Let's not harp on this hindsight thing, K? Our pre-9/11 "lapses" pale in comparison to those of '41, IMO.

Instead, let's pull together as a Nation, as we did on 12/8/41.




Somebody else wrote:
"Afghanistan is actually in a perfect position for an oil pipeline..."

What's all this talk and concern about oil? That's the French concern, not ours. We get the VAST majority of our oil from the Western Hemisphere. France (and Germany?) are the one's to fret about their precious oil sources. To them, it's not about terrorism, it's about oil. Oil is ALL they see...”

“"Normally Washington helps out ordinary Americans with its tax cuts, but this time they're sending the money to me."

- Bill Clinton”