Roe v. Wade

“Bush's plan to promote marriage strikes me as ludicrous. Marriage has been promoted by our culture for centuries.
LyndyS
06:27:23 AM
01/23/03

i don't understand your logic on this. what is wrong with keeping families together to help mother's raise their kids? do you realize that single women on wellfare make more money if they are single? and they get more for every kid. this encourages them to go it alone. also, the marriage tax disuedes some people from getting married. i can't remember the exact number, but something like 60-70% of black kids are born out of wedlock. that stat is stunning and i think it's a good thing bush is trying to do. just because it's ben tried unsucessfully doesn't mean it's a bad idea. give the guy credit where it's due. don't just reject everything just because you dislike his guts. believe it or not, there were SOME things clinton did that i was all in favor of.”

“BOL! I voted for him, and his daddy too! I just don't think that the government can "promote marriage". Yes, people should get married if they are having children. Ideally, they should get married, and then talk about having children. But you can't legislate people into doing the right thing. All you can do is legislate people into going to jail for doing a crime.

Yes it is nice to not penalize a couple into paying more taxes than they would pay separately. But spending money on advertising and promotion of marriage is wacky.”

“Strat: that baby is very far along (in your pic).. it ain't no first nor even second trimester baby - by a long shot!”

“wrong peddypoo. i chacked that before i sent it because i knew someone would say that. second trimester, perfectly legal to whack it to bits. here's week 21....




here's week 22, and it has eyebrows and his fingerprints are forming.....




pulled into the vagina. The baby is extracted in breech fashion until the head is just inside the cervix. With the baby face-down, scissors are plunged into the baby's head at the nape of the neck and spread open to enlarge the wound. A suction tip is inserted and the baby's brain removed. The skull collapses and the baby is delivered.


wanna see a picture of that? here's the adress if you wanna know what your right to choose does for those poor babies....

http://www.abortiontv.com/AbortionPictures1.htm






thou shalt not kill...
God”

“LyndyS very intelligently put. Thanks!”

“Strats - What does God have to do with this? He's your God, not mine, do I still have to live be "HIS" rules? Your feeble tempt to shock us has failed (come on, you can't compete with Pathmans stuff :) ) . Too bad your jst throwing stuff out there.

To answer some of your questions from my last post. I find it interesting that you say adopt them, but cannot answer any of my questions. Why? Because you don't know what it takes. How about $10,000 up front? How about wait periods? If this Governmemt wnats to curb abortion, it should make the adoption process better, then it can really point to a great alternative. Until them, your buddy Georgie Poo and the Cronies (WOW, great name fer a band!) will have to live with there stereo type.”

“lyndsy, encouraging marriage is not legislating anything. is like the adoption question....how could you oppose that? it's like you want abortions to occur.

there is legislation agains stealing, an immoral act. ligislation against a minor smoking cigarettes, murder, sexual misconduct, all moral questions. "ahh" you say, "but those things affect other people."
i'd say a baby people is affected by it's life being snuffed out...


go look at that link i put the address up there. there are many other sites with abortion pictures on them.it really makes a difference to see the real results. many are scared to look, especially those in favor of the procedure. out of sight, out of mind i rekon. but many of those babies are perfectly in tact, they just poison them with saline and it dies over the corse of an hour and is still born in a day or two. so you can see a face and it makes you think...dam, how could that beautiful creature be bad? how could anyone harm that thing if they have a heart?


i'm sorry, i honestly don't mean to come off as hostile. i have rarely even talked about this subject, it's not like i'm an activitist or anything. those pics just really flared my temper because it's so sad and unfair. unjust....that's what makes me madder than anything, injustis.


we have rights endowed by our creator, among them , life , liberty, and the persuit of happiness. . . .. all 3 of these are lost when a baby is killed.”

“God-i wasn't trying to shock anyone. i was talking to pedzing , who inferrred that it's biblically OK to perform abortions. if i wanted to shock you i'd show pics of aborted feti(?) as i have looked at several this morning. i KNOW that would shock you.

adoption- you said i was srong and then said the same thing i said. read my post more carefully before you get all neck-veiny on me. make adoption easier, faster, better. that's what i said. DOI!



ps, pathman's $h!t is unchallenged...”

“Strats sez:

"we have rights endowed by our creator, among them , life , liberty, and the persuit of happiness. . . .. all 3 of these are lost when a baby is killed"

So the Founding Fathers are God?”

“Lyndy, that was awesome!

stratdewd, do you eat meat? because from the way you talk about abortion, it would seem that you're against killing anything alive, for any reason. i'm not picking on you, i'm just trying to make the point that just because a fetus is "alive," that does not make first-trimester abortion equal to killing something with a higher level of consciousness, such as a child, or even a 1-day-old baby.

since there's so much controversy over this subject, i don't think anyone can say what is right and what is wrong, unequivocally. just because you (i'm talking to no one in particular here) believe something, does not make it true, especially for an entire country.”

“Everybody should just mind there own business. Iff'n its your daughter, then you can preach to her. Don't lay your personal belief trip on someone who has to make a very difficult decision.”

“right, i really don't care what anyone does. i mean it's sad but i'm just verbalizing why i'm personally against it, and not trying to convince anyone. actually i kindof agree woth DOM's conclusion on the matter....

i love to eat cows, who were put here to be eaten by me. why would anyone give a cow more value than a human baby?


laqtis, you have a problem with the bill of rights? i mean, ,you don't believe we have those rights as humans?”

“Strats sez:

"laqtis, you have a problem with the bill of rights? i mean, ,you don't believe we have those rights as humans?"......"

Where does this come from? First, it was you that stated that Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happyness was endowed by our "Creator". I was mearly point "jest" at you, asking if Washington and the boys were our "Creator". Sorry, went over yer head, I guess.

On a nodder thing,

"laqtis, you have a problem with the bill of rights? i mean, ,you don't believe we have those rights as humans?....." No, I don't think that we all do. It's a nice thought, but even your stance on this subject infringes on others "liberties and the right the right to pursue happiness"

When others stop telling me I'm going to He!! because I don't believe in there "God", my right for liberty will grow. When people stop getting beaten up or killed because of there sexual preferance, I'll start to be that maybe some have the right to pursue happiness. When the Big Business stops it's tracking practices, I'll start to believe that I have more Liberty. When Government pulls it nose outta my @ss, I'll begin to believe that I have more Liberty. When I get to decide if I want to die because I don't want to prolong the envitible, I'll start to think I have a right to Life.

Basically, when I gets to walk around the streets in the manner our Founding Fathers intended, I'll start to believe that we all, equally regardless of sex, race, religous backround, sexual perference, disiblitiy, origin, etc, have the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

“What are the statistics of domestic violence in this country? VERY high numbers! I don't want them to raise even further! I don't agree with legislation of marriage.

Also when you guys are speaking of adoption, you are speaking of perfectly healthy babies. We still have to quote the gov't 'unadoptable' babies ie handicapped children that very few adoptive parents would even think of when they picture their new family.”

“First they get rid of Roe vs Wade, and then it'll be the vote for women. What's next, take away property rights and education? This country is starting to sound more and more like Afghanistan.”

“Afghanistan? Hyperbole raises its ugly head! Or would that be better described as histrionics?”

“Domestic Violence Stats

The American Medical Association estimates that over 4 million women are victims of severe assaults by boyfriends and husbands each year. About 1 in 4 women is likely to be abused by a partner in her lifetime. (Congressional Quarterly Inc., Vol. 3, No. 8, Feb. 1993)

Most violence between intimates is assault: the intentional inflicting of injury on another person. In 1992, 81% of the violent victimizations committed by spouses and ex-spouses were assaults. The remainder were rapes and robberies, which also may have involved assault.
Among all female murder victims in 1992, 30% were slain by husbands or boyfriends.

National Domestic Violence Statistics A woman is battered every 13 seconds. As many as 70% of children who witness domestic violence are also victims of child abuse. (Senator Paul Wellstone Domestic Violence Statistics Report)”

“It's so vast, the emotions surrounding it so immense, the points of view and arguments for and against numbering in the hundreds . . . thousands. I don't even know where to start or who to respond to.

LyndyS, good stuff said on your part. I try hard to make the boys in the classes I volunteer to speak w/ get this stuff (& the girls too).

To anyone who had anything to say about "irresponsible to have unwanted pregnancy in the first place," come on people, let's be real. I will agree that abstinence should have been the first choice, I would do it differently myself if I could. However, I took the proper precautions, I took them in a long-term relationship which I felt was stable . . . it happened anyway. I made the choice to have the child and take full responsibility. One yr. before I had my daughter, a close friend made the opposite choice. And she made it in conjunction w/ the father. She was very wise. She was not prepared to handle a pregnancy, she was not prepared to raise a child. She carefully evaluted herself and saw that she was not ready to do the "giving, giving, giving" that a mother must do w/out complaint. I respect myself for doing what I have done. I respect her for doing what she has done.

Rosey, you had some good stuff to say about overpopulation. Here's what I know (this is from a paper I researched and wrote this past summer): If we could represent the world's population of children (this takes developed and developing countries into consideration) w/ a 100 kids it would look like this: 33 births not registered (no official existence), 27 not immunized against any disease, 32 suffer from malnutrition, 25 live in abject poverty, 18 do not have clean drinking water. Saddest of all, those of the 100 living in the worst conditions have little chance of ever getting out of it, because 18 of them will never have any education at all . . . . 11 of that 18 will be girls. I find that much more distrubing than a legal, safe abortion. Do you?”

“It's those future and past babies that have ruined it all for us non-use-to-be-babies.........babies need to be wiped off the Earth...............babies are always stiring things up. Darn those babies!”

“Good lord, look at the parade of EGOS. Never before have I seen a sorrier collection of high school dropouts trying to sound informed and intelligent.

Here's an opinion on abortion for you: YOU PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABORTED FOR ENGAGING IN SUCH LAME UNORIGINAL DRIVEL”

“Jello, please, post something real.”

“Hmmm, Master Hiker, what exactly did that do for our discussion? I'm not really following.”

“Newgirl those figures are very disturbing. Thank you for the information.”

“True, true, NG! You chose to make the choice you did and have taken responsibility for your child. I commend you and if only more young mothers could follow your lead, the world would be a better place. Seems like too many can't.

Master Bater, go take a hike.”

“Exactly, Rosey. Too many simply can't. I try to educate young people about the reality, before it happens. But many are quite matter-of-factly not ready in the deepest sense of the word. Not ready financially, emotionally, mentally, physically . . . due to their age, their personality, their environment, etc. What I brought up about the sit. that the world's children face clearly points this out, why bring more of them into that sad state of affairs. Esp. if you know that you can not handle it. Overwhelming the women of the world would choose contraception over abortion, but it does not always work. A preg. is not always wanted EVEN in a marriage.”

“Sometimes it’s easier to see things more clearly when you set up thought experiments.


A man wakes up to find himself hooked up to a machine that supports another man’s life. He will have to stay connected for the next nine months and then the other man will be cured and they can part ways. If he disconnects himself, the other man dies. No one asked his permission or if he had any plans for the next nine months.

Now… if he decides to remain connected, he is doing a truly wonderful thing. He saves the other man’s life at great cost to himself. Does anyone think that he should be required to be a Great Samaritan? I don’t.

I would think that this case is equivalent to pregnancies through rape or incest. I don’t think that we, as a society, can require someone to carry to term under such situations.


Now suppose that the man knew before he went to sleep where he did, he knew there was a good chance that someone might come in and hook him up to another person like that. Suppose he took the precaution of locking the door, but he still woke up hooked up to the machine.

Can he be compelled to stay hooked up under those circumstances? I’m inclined to answer no, but his case is not as strong as the first.


Finally, suppose that he agreed to the arrangement but changed his mind part way through. In that case, I’d say he would be wrong to disconnect the machine.


Note that the above cases apply when a living human life is involved – one who is not viable without the first man.




My own view is that abortions should not be performed after viability, whenever that is based upon current medical science, except in extreme cases (incest, rape or life of the mother). No one can claim to know with absolute certainty when a fetus becomes a human and it is a matter properly left the moral deliberations of the mother.”

“I do not wish to argue about my beliefs about the legality or morality of abortion. And I won’t. I don’t plan to discuss my opinion of abortion. I just want to address the earlier mentioned idea of adoption as an alternative to abortion.

It is true that there are often very long waits for families to adopt an infant. From what I understand, this is because most people in the US that wish to adopt children are attempting to adopt what people (unfortunately) refer to as "normal" babies. And, the majority of adopters are looking for white babies.

Older children, minority infants/children, physically and/or mentally disabled infants/children... all are less likely to get adopted and therefore, the wait is less.

I do not have hard facts to support this. However, a close friend and colleague just went through this process. If she was to adopt a "healthy" infant, she would have waited up to 2 years. Instead, she chose to adopt an EI 8 year old African American boy who has been passed from foster home to foster home.

The “facts” I suggested above were told to her by a few different adoption agencies. So, while I don’t have the pamphlet or link to prove it, I tend to believe what they’ve said…. It just makes sense.

When a person is forced to give birth to a child, because her right to choose has been taken away, that mother will likely be less careful about her pre-natal care because she is admittedly not interested in pregnancy or having a child. She might be less inclined to take care of herself and the baby growing inside of her because she knows the baby will not be her responsibility in 9 months (assuming she plans to adopt out). The baby will run a higher risk of developing physical and mental disabilities due to the mother’s lack of medical care.

Thus, this child will be less likely to be adopted. We now have another child in our adoption system that may never get adopted.

So, is adoption a viable alternative to abortion… IMO, which is based on the above, I’m not so sure that it is.”

“Yeah, or she'll bust a coat hanger and possibily kill herself in the process.”

“babies are real..........what in the heck is wrong with you........don't you know past babies are in cahoots with the future babies”

“I think once people stop being selfish dumbasses then we can illegalize abortion. When >%50 marriages end in divorce, when people care less about their image and more about their substance, when politicians care more about the people than about their jobs then maybe I'll be for illegalizing abortion, but as it stands now I think people need the option. AND I will always have to think long and hard before I vote to involve the Gov in peoples daily life more than it is”

“were you once a baby”

“I don't have a problem with families staying together, I think it's a shame so many people have no integrity and feel that marriage is temporary...

I just don't think the Government should be spending anytime or my money on it... it's not their job”

“Abortion being discussed on a backpacking site???? Good grief!!!!!, will this subject ever go away to where it belongs? ............ in the privacy of one's own mind, heart and family. Take care of your own and move on.”

“Abortion being discussed on a backpacking site???? Good grief!!!!!, will this subject ever go away to where it belongs? ............ in the privacy of one's own mind, heart and family. Take care of your own and move on.”

“babies always cause trouble”

“Strat, I didn't know you were a war protestor.”

“I am totally "Pro Choice" -
I believe a woman should be able to choose whether or not to get pregnant.

If she elects to get pregnant, she then has an unequivocal responsibility to care for her child. If she opts to seek abortionalism, and thus still a beating heart, that puts her in the same catagory as that chick in SC that drowned her kids in her locked car.

$.02”

“why are babies always doing things to hurt people”

“"My take is, there are too many people on the damn planet as it is."

The population of the USA could live within the city limits of Jacksonville, FL, FYI.”

“Just curious, how many of pro-choice folks are anti-death penalty?”

“not me... I don't always agree how they use the death penalty but I think sometimes people deserve it.”

“Sure Gojo. Maybe if they were standing right next to each other.”

“Newgirl, I'm glad that you weren't upset with me. I was thinking that I should have stated that I don't think that single Moms or unmarried Moms should be villainized, unless of course, they are never married Moms with two or more children. Obviously in a perfect world they might have done things differently, but they went with the flow and did their best to make a home for their child.

Stratdewd, I don't understand your statements regarding me and adoption. Did you confuse me with someone else? It would be great if more people would adopt hard to place children. Many people at my church have done this, adopting "boarder babies" from hospitals in Newark. These children are abandoned babies of victims of Aids or drug users (or both). My husband and I looked into this for ourselves, but when one of my daughters started having depression problems, we backed off (my daughter has since improved tremendously due to a regimen of ordinary vitamin supplements beyond Flintstones).”

“The "over population" and "diminishing resources" arguments are hogwash.

O! Ye weak of faith!
Fear not, for the inginuity of Americans, kindled by the potential of monetary gain associated with a free market economy, shall meet ALL the needs of ALL generations to come.

What? Like we ain't never overcame hardships before? Where y'all been?”

“Then, the remainder of Florida could become a vast farm, able to produce enough food for three billion people. That's the truth, Ruth.

Wow! Just imagine what a GREAT wilderness the remaining 49 states would make!

"But goooojoooo, whaaat abouuuut waterrrr?" You whine?
One word:
Glaciers, baby!
(okay, that was two words)”

“Too humid in Fla to grow the staples...”

“Gojo, my darling Southern boy, I have soooo much info. for you on that one too. I'll be back in a min. and I'll post it!”

“Hmm ...


This comment from Stratdewd was priceless

"it's [abortion presumably]just a justification for women to be sluts."


DID YOU PEOPLE READ THAT??!!!!!


HEY STRAT. HOW ABOUT "IT'S JUST A JUSTIFICATION FOR MEN TO BE SLUTS???"




How about this from Gojo:

I believe a WOMAN should be able to choose whether or not to get pregnant.

If SHE elects to get pregnant, SHE then has an unequivocal responsibility to care for her child. If SHE opts to seek abortionalism, and thus still a beating heart, that puts HER in the same catagory as that CHICK in SC that drowned HER kids in HER car.


Do you think he used the word SHE/HER enough????

Lord knows it is the fault of slutty women.

How about 2scoops??

Way back he/she sugested that he/she would become pro-choice if it could be shown that eVen one women thought her abortion had turned out to be a positive thing.





WHAT PISSES ME OFF MOST IS THE EGOTISM.



WHO GIVES A HOLY RAT F-CK WHAT YOU THINK.


WHO THE F. GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO THINK ANYTHING??!!



KEEP YOUR F-ING OPINIONS TO YOUR F-ING SELF.



I always wanted to drive a cement truck through a crowd of abortion protesters.



It is probably the thing I harbor the most violence about. I see anti-abortion bumper stickers and I want to run them off the road.





For me, its simply a pratical matter.

I don't regard abortion as an alternative to birth control. I wish that there were fewer folks that did. That they were more careful on the front end, so that they wouldn't have to choose on the back end.


But, I won't deny them the choice.

I don't know, and am not in a position to judge their circumstances. If they have judged themselves not able to carry the baby to term, deal with adopting it out, carrying for it, raising it, then that is their choice. Not mine.



And sure as hell shouldn't be the choice of the ignorant f-ing rednecks on this site.




ps: Fritz. Your comment were, as always, very thoughtful.

I certainly appreciate the deepseated reverance for life, and deep conviction, (i will make a leap and assume that you must also be against the death penalty).

You comments were astute, and well thought out.

I don't happen to agree. I see it from a more hard boiled practical perspective. Not as a moral absolute.”

“Lee rules”