Roe v. Wade

“Lee, I couldn't say it better myself.”

“Gojo sed: I am totally "Pro Choice" -
I believe a woman should be able to choose whether or not to get pregnant.

If she elects to get pregnant, she then has an unequivocal responsibility to care for her child.

This is the possible contradiction I was asking Fritz about.

Let me ask you: do you think that women should be able to abort if her life is in jeopardy? Or if she was raped/molested?”

“Well, I guess I don't really want to get into how many people the Earth can support to better inform Gojo. It's kinda' gettin' too far from the whole point of this discussion. However, Gojo, one should know that we are already past the limit.

Some more disturbing info. on the plight of the children already living here on planet Earth: In developing countries 11 million children die every yr., 10 million of them are under the age of 5, 1 in 7 of these deaths are due to diseases for which there are vaccines or illnesses that are easily treated. I find this deeply upsetting. Do you? The World Health Org. estimates it would cost about $3 dollars per person, per yr. to provide better health care for these children and their mothers. It would cost about $1 per person, per yr. to provide reproductive health care and contraception to help prevent these births all together. If you do not support abortion, perhaps you should support (through financial giving, speaking out, and voting for) the gov. representatives and orgs. that will grant funding for and provide these services. What do you think?”

“My personal opinion is that this is a private matter between a woman & her doctor. If she chooses to include others in this decision that is also her choice. I believe sex education & all choices should be taught in schools. Do we really want to chase young girls into the unscrupulous hands of illegal abortions. My only child is a girl. She is a school teacher now & has a son after marriage. To the best of my knowledge has never had an abortion but did move in with her boyfriend (now husband) before marriage with our acceptance of her decision.”

“That statement is so asinine, that the possibility for intelligent discussion doesn't exist.

Well spoken, Lyndy."
AmyG
06:55:10 AM
01/23/03


ok. it wasnt well put. others have put it much better than i. but you only focused on just part of what i said, and then instead of rebutting what i said, you called it an asinine statement, which is a clever shortcut to appearing to winning an argument but is intellectualy lazy. the idea was not mine, but something i stumbled across in a book several years ago in college, and it was a book of short articles of feminists AGAINST abortion. i think im gonna have to go look it up now. i was just trying to tackle the issue from a philosophical bent, and i think the idea holds some merit. i will admit to over-generalizing, it was more aimed at the hardcore feminists, the ones still harboring resentment towards the male of the species, or anyone who turns this into a man-woman issue.”

“it's not a male or female problem, it's because of the babies........babies are messin' with peoples minds.”

“Ng, I realise That on a rare occasion birth control does fail But I have also seen too many girls who skipped pills, ect and still hopped in the sack anyway. I hope you dont feel that I was judging you on the matter. whether your situation was deliberate, accidentale or just a freak of nature is no longer important but rather the fact that you have since taken responsibility for your self.
In the end the point of biology is to reproduce and our a large amount of our psychology and physiology is devoted to that goal. Untill they find an effective way to provide birth control for both men and women that is reversible and fool proof unwanted pregnancies will continue to be a problem.”

“I gotta quit posting before my first cup of coffee. Did I make any sense?”

“"instead of rebutting what i said, you called it an asinine statement, which is a clever shortcut to appearing to winning an argument but is intellectualy lazy. "


It isn't about winning, Scoops.

First, I don't care to debate with someone who has a closed mind, such as your post implies. I have found it to be a lesson in futility and most times, as in this thread, mudslinging results. You can believe what you want, as will I (the beauty of this county's freedom).

Second, you freely admit that the idea of 'abortion is revenge on men' isn't even your own. So, to call me intellectually lazy, because I won't get into this internet discussion (with all of its namecalling and heightened emotion) is hypocritical...don't ya think?

I rarely call someone out...I rarely insult people here on TT or in life. If I can't think of anything nice to say, I usually leave it alone and chaulk it up to 'not worth my time'. Abortion is a subject that hits home with me as a woman, and because of personal closeness to a situation years ago. (a young girl was date raped and got pregnant, as a result)

When someone starts a thread to celebrate a law of freedom, only to have it contaminated with photos and other cut-and-past-for-shock-value quote snippets, its insulting.

When degradation occurs for fun, it's TT, when it occurs simply to be hurtful and turns nasty, we all lose.”

“i didn't know i'd be called a f-ing ignorant redneck for having an opinion. i din't know amy was in charge of this thread. i didn't know posting pictures was insulting. i didn't know 3rd world mothers could get abortions here. i didn't know that the government shouldn't be concerned with a system that's topheavy and needs more income and less output. i didn't know i was a bad person for having a heart. i didn't know only 'enlightened' people could speak.


since nobodies willing to talk without getting angry, i'll return to other threads. ya'll enjoy your right to choose. i'm happy for ya, have a blast. be fruitful and kill the seeds.....”

“"since nobodies willing to talk without getting angry" - stratdewd

Actually, most of us who have been talking have done it without getting angry.

Personally, I've been pleased with most of what I've seen on this thread. Sure some things that have been said are insulting, dumb or annoying (the idea that abortion is about revenge against men is remarkable for its idiocy)... but I've seen careful thoughtful posts on both sides. I really enjoyed seeing some of newgirls thoughts, always appreciate Amy's input and appreciated the care and patience shown by Fritz on the other side.

I ain't offended by the photos - but a rather retouched looking photo of a fetus/baby of questionable gestation is besides the point. I looked at the site Strat's picture came from and saw nothing to indicate age.”

“I ended this debate already.

God tells me that a fetus has a soul at 26 weeks.

End of discussion.”

“Anyway, "thou shalt not kill" is not self-evidently a commandment against abortion anymore than it is self-evidently a commandment against war, capital punishment, slaughter of animals or euthanasia.

I stand behind my opinion that the idea that abortion = murder (especially in the first trimester) is a pretty modern idea.

There are cases when I've felt people were wrong to carry a pregnancy to term - where it violated my sense of morality. There have also been cases where I thought people were morally wrong to have an abortion. But ultimately, I'm not ready to have anyone but the pregnant woman make the final decision - except maybe in the latest term abortions (in which case maybe a doctor should have to certify special medical considerations). Yes, I believe the would be father, doctors and others should be heard. I believe a woman should take the feelings and opinions of the would be father into account and they should come to an agreement (I am thinking, of course, only of cases where the sex was consensual). However, if the would be father and the would be mother can't agree - the mother should get to decide, until technology finds a way to implant the fetus in the father.”

“abortion has killed more people than all wars combined......

ped , i stand corrected, but if you really want to be enlightened , look at the site i posted the adress for and look at the babies after they have been aborted that they dug outta trash dumpsters. that's real and that's the price for this 'freedom'. can you handle the truth? did anybody look at the site? i doupt it....


ps amy, if i wanted to shock you i could easily do it. i showed the pics cuz people kept saying they're not humans, they are a fetus.


ppss, i'm not a redneck....i just spell bad”

“Spell badly”

“Strat: The pictures on abortion tv aren't persuasive to me. Have you seen horrible pictures of people killed in war? Does that make you entirely anti-war? Have you seen footage of people being executed? Does that make you anti-capital punishment? Have you seen pictures of baby seals being slaughtered... of monkeys and chimps in animal experiments? Does that turn you against killing all animals or against all animal research? Hopefully, you use a bit more reason in thinking through your opinions.

Have you looked for accounts of what happened to women who were desperate for abortions when they were illegal? Of how some of them died?

Being a person means more than having a face or fingers. Lots of creatures have a face and fingers. It means a lot more than looking cute, or resembling a person enough for me to be moved or have some feelings of empathy.”

“Strat, 3rd World Mothers can not get abortions in the U.S., but the U.S. along w/ many other countries, provides funding to programs that help educate and provide reproductive and contraceptive health care to 3rd World Mothers. This admin. has cut that funding, thus increasing the # of women in those countries who seek out abortion. Here's something for you: 80 million unintended pregnancies worldwide, per yr., 46 million end in abortion, 36 million are in developing nations, where death due to unsafe abortion or complications due to the pregnancy and a normal delivery itself is 33 times greater than in developed nations. Support Reproductive Education!”

“I doubt those babies were in the dumpster. BioHazard material is disposed of in special containers by private companies paid to burry the stuff in private landfills, not city dumps.”

“Sorry, I haven't been quoting sources here peeps. I got my info. from some sites of orgs. that run International Family Planning programs.”

“My point on the pics is: I am already copnvinced that abortion involves loss of - and harm to a human fetus that does matter morally. I am equally convinced that abortion is sometimes the right choice... and I am even more thoroughly convinced that abortion should be safe and legal.”

“Agreed Ped. Wasn't a critique of you. I read on that site that they found the babies in the dumpsters and my immediate reaction was, "I doubt that..."”

“I don't know anything about the disposal either, Rosey, but I kinda' doubt it too.”

“I wanted to be sure that other women on this site knew that when I was talking about all this stuff, I never meant to come off like superior and critical of someone who had a child or pregnancy out of wedlock. Lord knows that it could just as easily been me, and I don't know whether I would have had the courage and maturity to take the rocky road rather than the easy one. Everyone needs to do what seems best at the time, given each set of circumstances, and we all need to try to help young struggling parents with their children whenever possible.”

“AMEN LyndyS! A-freakin'-Men!”

“ok, i haven't read this whole thread, forgive me if i repeat someone...

so if a mother decides when her child is say 2 years old, that she was nowhere near ready to be a parent, is she justified in killing the child? why then is it acceptable before the child is born? whether you believe it to be a life at conception or at 30 weeks, you cannot dispute that if a viable fetus is left to go to term, it WILL become a human being, call it what you will until that point...as for those who say "it's my body" and "who are you to say what i can or can't do with my body" bull%#*t...stop making this a feminist issue, if you're so proud of being a woman, then act like one....it stopped being your body as soon as you became pregnant, from that moment on, you are a mother, you're greatest responsiblilty is to protect the child you are carrying...
i'm no crazy right wing conservative nazi, i'm no ignorant redneck...i just have a little common sense and enough humility to realize that if i make a mistake then I have to face the repercussions, not an innocent child. i think we need to take some of this money we're spending on the pro-choice movement and put it towards educating people on pregnancy prevention. i'll be the first to admit, we have both a population and a welfare problem, why not focus on preventing the problem before it occurs instead of just erasing it afterwards and pretending it didn't happen...

go ahead...give it to me...”

“Good points, nia13. I agree that education is key to reducing the number of abortions performed.

Unfortunately, our government has opted not to fund sex education programs that teach anything other than abstinence. http://www.aclu.org/ReproductiveRights/ReproductiveRights.cfm?ID=10781&c=227

This is a huge mistake, in my opinion. As is are laws that require drugstores to keep their condoms behind the counters. Fortunately organization like Family Planning are working to offset these poor decisions but they cannot do it alone.”

“Nia13 -

WHile I vehemently disagree with your view of a woman's responsibility to an unborn fetus,

I do agree that money should be spent at the front end of the problem. Contraception, sex education, etc etc at the junior high and high school level. I would rather have money spent to PREVENT an unwanted pregnancy than spent to terminate one.

Having said that, if terminating a pregnancy is the most pratical and reasonable decision as determined by those immediately involved (the pregnant women, maybe the impregrating male), then the option should be safe, legal and available.


One of the things that angers me most is the position of the Catholic church in this discussion. That is, it is both wrong to terminate a pregnancy AND wrong to either a) educate teenagers about birth control; and, b) use or provide birth control.

I understand (someone explained this a gazillion posts ago)that it is the position of the church that intercourse outside of marriage is a sin, and should NEVER take place, and that, by definition, any pregnancy that occurs should occur between a married couple.

This position simply ignores reality. At least reality on this planet. If kids are having sex, and are going to continue to have sex, then they need the upfront education and contraception.




I think Newgirl deserves a phenomenal amount of credit for her ongoing involvment in educating kids in her community. She has conducted herself in this discussion in a decent, evenhanded, level headed way. She has offered facts and passion in support of her position. And she backs it up with sacrifice of her time and energy.

That is certainly more than I can say for myself on many levels.”

“well, lee what do you think a woman's respnsibility is to an unborn child? and who exactly should be responsible for caring for it? the child? that is my point, there is no one else who is going to stand up for this child, it's not a freedom issue...i agree, from what i read from newgirl, i give her credit, and you're right she's not just talking, that says more than most of us. as for the catholic church, i know their opinion however, i didn't think that was the issue here. that is extremely unrealistic, if our *dirty words here* (private parts) were only supposed to be used a couple times a year, then they shouldn't have been made so easily accessible...and fun 8) would you put out a keg of really good beer and say don't drink it?
anyway, i digress (now i'm thirsty)...rosey, i'll try to check out that website you posted and you're right, no one can do it alone, but every full bucket started with a drop...”

“Rosey: I wasn't responding to you... but to Strat. I share your skepticism - but, of course, I don't know - all kinds of organizations cheat and disobey laws and regulations.

Nia:
#1: I think a baby that has drawn breath - especially one who has been touched, held, fed or talked to - is a person. I certainly don't think a first trimester fetus is a person. A baby who has been born is in the world... not in the woman and things are very different then.

#2: Sometimes, having an abortion is the responsible maternal decision... sometimes having a baby isn't.”

“Rosey: I wasn't responding to you... but to Strat. I share your skepticism - but, of course, I don't know - all kinds of organizations cheat and disobey laws and regulations.

Nia:
#1: I think a baby that has drawn breath - especially one who has been touched, held, fed or talked to - is a person. I certainly don't think a first trimester fetus is a person. A baby who has been born is in the world... not in the woman and things are very different then.

#2: Sometimes, having an abortion is the responsible maternal decision... sometimes having a baby isn't.”

“ped, my point, is that any healthy fetus, if left to run it's course will BECOME a baby who has drawn breath. mother nature has her own way of weeding out those that shouldn't live....why is adoption never an option? i agree, some wmen should not be mothers, but some women who should, can not...what a beautiful symbiotic relationship if we let it be....”

“Nia13 --

I'll start with how you and I have very carefully characterized the group of cells multiplying inside a woman's body.

You repeatedly refer to "it" (my term) as "an unborn child' and I refer to "it" as, well, "IT" or "unborn fetus"


I do NOT believe that, however you label the entity, it has "rights" to defend. I do not believe it is a "child". Nor do I believe that YOU, STRATDEWD, GOJO, ME or anyone else has the right to speak for anyone involved in the situation. I believe that the pregnant woman's "responsibility" towards the unborn fetus is what SHE wants it to be. If she wants it terminated, its HER choice. If she wants to carry it to term, its HER choice.

To answer your question directly, Her responsibility to the unborn fetus is to make the choice.


Pedxing has spent some time refuting/countering Strats histronics regarding "when life begins" and whether or not the fetus in the ultrasound picture is "viable', or not viable, or has rights or not.


For me . . . I simply have no need to examine the issue beyond what is practical and reasonable for the pregnant woman involved (notice . . no use of the word "Mother" . . .she is not a "mother" until the birth). I have no deep seated moral or ethical or other qualms with regard to terminating pregnancy.

Again. I would prefer that more was done to ensure unintentioned pregnancies did NOT occur. BUT, once one occurs I have no moral or other dilemma about terminating it. Period.

As close to "bothered" as I get would be in the case of "serial aborters", or couples (it takes TWO people, its not just WOMEN, it's women and the MEN who knock em up)who are too lazy, ignorant or otherwise uneducated to take preventative steps and have repeated abortions.

I
a) would like to believe (or at least hope) that the instances of repeat abortions is low relative to over all abortions.

b) doubt that these are the folks I would want having kids anyway.

c) think that these instances make the strongest case for more education about long term contraception (e.g. norplant)

I believe strongly that serial aborters make the strongest case for effective prevention methods . . .not a case for restricting abortions.”

“Hmm my post was entered just after Pedxings, without having read his. In any event, he represented his position, and the whole "draw a breath" thing better than I can.

Adoption is ALWAYS an option Nia . . if that is what the pregnant woman CHOOSES.



One of the things that makes me crazy about Pres. Bush is the cutting of funding for Family Planning clinics.

He went right after the funding for clinics abroad, and would like to decimate funding domestically.

Contraception and planning is the best single way to REDUCE abortions.

How can he justify cutting the spending?


I . . .I will leave Bush there. This thread is difficult enough without traveling further on that road.”

“it all boils down to the babies fault........wipe the babies out and there will be no more discussion or a threat from them..........I tell ya again, the future and past babies have to go, get rid of them, banish them!”

“Despite my personal views on the subject, I feel Roe v. Wade was an extremely well written opinion and that the holding is sound.”

“And for those of you who like to argue this issue, without having read the opinion , I encourage you to take the time to read it and to understand the Court's holding.”

“then why has Roe recanted all her thoughts and feelings about abortion?”

“Hey Newgirl,
have you every seen that movie, I think it is called, 'KIDS' or something to that fact. Filmed?, I would say 5 yrs ago or so. It took place in NYC and was 'shot' in a documentary fashion. Its a pretty frightening look as to the consquences of unprotected sex. Check it out if you have not seen it already and judge if your youngin's could handle watching it. A 'movie' might just help in getting the message across. Its gotta be more interesting and closer to reality than just seeing pic's and hear stats.”

“yes it is killing a living organism. Call that organism what you want. This is another case of LEGAL killing. Unless you want to make all killing illegal (it is in the eyes of the Lord) than shut yur yap and don't have one...


we will all have our day of judgement before we push up daisies”

“Ever eat a chicken sandwich? MURDERER!”

“I gonna tell y'all again.........it's the babies fault, babies are ruining America.....babies want rights, and the very thought of babies having rights is crazy. Babies need to be wiped off the Earth, and when I say that, I mean all future and past babies........why do we non-use-to-be-babies put up with this baby nonsense?”

“abortion is sad and unfortunate, i'm not sure what my feelings are about the issue, maybe it is a necessity considering our society.

with so many unwanted, unloved children out there, we should all stop creating more babies and start adopting them.

just because a child comes from your genetics doesn't mean that you can't love and care for an adopted child equally.

just some dumb thoughts. the way humans treat each other is sickening.”

“you can talk about abortion......but not the affects it will have. Scoot around the problems after the fact all you want......they will not go away.”

“But here, it is okay......funny.....I did not start this thread, huh.”

“"It would cost about $1 per person, per yr. to provide reproductive health care and contraception to help prevent these births all together."
~Newgirl

That's been tried. In one case with which I'm familiar, the women used the pills to make necklaces. True story.

"1 in 7 of these deaths are due to diseases for which there are vaccines or illnesses that are easily treated. I find this deeply upsetting. Do you?"
~Chewgirl

Until the leaders of these third world nations get their political $#!t together, we can expect much - prolly even more - of the same. I find this, too, to be upsetting.


"If you do not support abortion, perhaps you should support (through financial giving, speaking out, and voting for) the gov. representatives and orgs. that will grant funding for and provide these services. What do you think?"
~Chewy

I think that as long as the leaders of these countries continue their egocentric, tyrannical ways, all the money in Fort Knox, tea in China, beans in Mexico, grits in Georgia, and beef in Montanna won't help.”

“Montanna?

Is that north of Louisianna?”

“Unfortunately, our government has opted not to fund sex education programs that teach anything other than abstinence. http://www.aclu.org/ReproductiveRights/ReproductiveRights.cfm?ID=10781&c=227

This is a huge mistake, in my opinion. As is are laws that require drugstores to keep their condoms behind the counters. Fortunately organization like Family Planning are working to offset these poor decisions but they cannot do it alone."
roseymonster

rosey i greee and was impressed that you looked at the site i linked.”

“WTF???? statdewd went to the ACLU site?????

It is a wonder his computer didn't start smoking when he hit that site.”

“Lee! Holy Moly, thanks buddy! I believe in it very, very strongly. I believe that education is the first step in any situation.

Briar, I have, in fact, watched "KIDS." Very, very disturbing. Unfortunately, I know that it would not be allowed in the classrooms I speak in. It might have a big impact.

Gojo, I know nothing about how the women in these developing nations actually use the contraception. I believe the case you refer to must have happened, because no one bothered to EDUCATE her first. The leaders of these nations, again, I don't know too much about ea. of them or their policies specifically. I don't have answers there. I haven't researched it. The beef in MT can make a difference though! Have you ever heard about an org. called Heffer International. They have a website. Do a search. Read about how they help contribute to families in these countries. As for the grits in Georgia . . . I'm not sure what the hell you weirdos are doing w/ that stuff to begin w/! (LOL!)”

“the point i was trying to make is, its all well and good to SAY youre pro-choice, but when it comes right down to it, i would put good money on those who have actually gone thru with it, the number regretting what they have done far outweighs the number who feel they did the right thing. and i think that speaks volumes. because i have never heard of someone who has had an abortion say it was the right thing. whenever i run into one of these arguments, its always a bunch of pro and con ppl, but not a one is someone who has actually done it. so theyre arguing about an abstract concept. hell i even heard (quite some time back) that the original plaintiff in roe v wade has regretted what has happend and was now against the very law she helpd come about. but of course im just an ignorant redneck, i dont know anything and who cares what i think. flame on.”