Roe v. Wade

“No, not controversial at all! Just very much guaranteed to bring out strong emotions!”

“It does bring out strong emotions, and as I indicated, non stronger than in the tormented soul of my friend of years back. I believe it is the woman's choice, but I have to tell you, it's not an easy choice, nor is it reversable if she decides later she was wrong.

I would suggest that any woman considering abortion be at least counseled on the choices available to her and the ramifications of her decision.

When this woman had the abortion, she thought it would just be over and that would be that. Well, it wasn't because she completely fell apart emotionally on the anniversary of the abortion years later. She said she would never do it again.

That was one woman, and one situation. I don't know how other women react, and really it's their business and not mine. But the woman has to live with the results of her decision, so it's her responsibility to make it.

The one exception would be in a marriage where another prospective parent is involved. I think in that case it should be a joint decision.”

“BTW, I think it is amazing and refreshing that this subject is getting discussed with respect.”

“It's more fun when it's disrespectful”

“Chili says laqtis nailed it early.

OK, I will start there.

I think that it is wrong for the Government to tell a women what to do with there body.

The physical location of a baby, inside its mother's womb, does not make it less of a baby, and does not make it part of the mother's body.

The baby has measurable brainwaves in the first trimester. The baby has its own circulatory system, with a blood type that is usually different than that of the mother. The baby feels pain. The baby hears sounds while in the womb and, on some level, "remembers" them even after birth.

Prolifers do not want to tell a woman what to do with her body; we want to tell her that she has NO RIGHT to kill a baby.

Plain wrong. One the last parts of male dominance.

Most Pro-Lifers are women. The male-dominance argument is both inaccurate and irrelevant.

The church needs to stay out of it, it does not speak for everyone in this country.

So, by that logic, NOW needs to stay out of it. They do not speak for everyone in this country. (They speak for none of the men, and only a fraction of the women.)

...preach it to your following, don't invade my life with those suppressive beliefs.

We can, should, and do legislate morality in this country, the question is of course, "whose morality?"

I assume you are comfortable (most Americans are, regardless of religious convictions) with laws against murder, just as an (admittedly easy) example. If your statement is taken as the guiding principle on how laws should be determined, murder would be legal.

Read Lord of the Flies. Decide for yourself if those boys were better off when they no longer were controlled by the suppressive beliefs of their parents' society.

I believe that EVERYONE has the right to choose in this country.

This is a meaningless statement unless you specify, "choose what." You don't have a right to choose to steal instead of working for a living. And you don't have a right to take the life of a baby, born or unborn (except in the rare case where the life of the mother is in real danger.)

Unwanted babies in this world is worse than abortion because with abortion, it only effects the "parnets involed, with unwanted children, they effect us all.

The problem is not the baby. The problem is the parents. The baby should not have to pay with his or her life. There are options. Babies get adopted, yes even minority babies.

I also have to ask, how is taking the life of a baby before birth morally any different than taking the life of a baby after birth? You wouldn't support, say, allowing children up to the age of two to be terminated, based on the "needs" of the parents, or based on some "deficiency" in the child...would you?

(If you wouldn't...then welcome the ranks of reasonable people who believe in legislating morality.)

But back to the point....if abortion is better than unwanted babies, how much MORE true would that be when those unwanted babies are walking this earth, getting into trouble, etc.? To be consistent, it seems to me you'd have to say exterminating them is better than dealing with them.

I am tired...so my logic and wording in this post will certainly be flawed. But for what it is worth....that is my response to the post that "nailed it" for the abortion side.

Respectfully Submitted, (just to annoy Mutt) ;)

Fritz”

“Geobeet, you are not a very good abortion rights advocate. Most of them will never acknowledge that the father has rights. (In too many ways, fathers in our society have only responsibilities, but not rights. But that is another thread.)”

“Abortion.

To me it boils down to bad contract language. There wasn't a complex definition to "life" when it was written, and through our scientific advancements over time, the word "life" has several meanings. The question is, when does "life" begin; when something is born, or when something is conceived?

According to our law, murder, the taking of another's life, is illegal in most circumstances. Pro-lifers believe that life begins at conception, and maily base this on religoius views (although the bible doesn't define life like we attempt to today), therefore, abortion is murder. Many pro-choicers believe that life is post birth, justifying thier position that abortion is legal, for it is not murder.

All this ambiguity makes for bad contract language, both in religion and in law, soooo, what to do?

Our country was founded on the separation of church and state, and, to me, this is more a moral religious issue, than a legal one, i.e., the majority of pro-lifer's beliefs stem from a belief system founded on religion, where their definition of "life" is interperated through the bible, koran, etc, or rules designated by religious leaders. The majority of pro-choicers' beliefs are founded on individual rights, and aren't influenced by religious beliefs, and must, if they are law-abiding, believe that "life" begins after the process of birth.

In a strictly legal assessment, I think abortion should be legal, based on the information above. This being true, if "life" begins at conception, then there are many people who have to answer to a higher power out there, if it begins at birth, then the law prevailed.

None of us will really know for sure until we are dead, just like most things.

My personal opinion, that stays with me, but that is my choice.”

“And you don't have a right to take the life of a baby, born or unborn (except in the rare case where the life of the mother is in real danger.)

This is an area of inconsistency I don't understand in the typical anti-choice perspective. Fritz didn't mention it, but many neocons would expand on this and say that it's the woman's obligation to accept responsibility for her actions - i.e. if she has sex and gets pregnant - she knew the risk and must have the child.

Women also know that getting pregnant can result in a life-threatening situation for the mother. Thus, to be morally consistent - women shouldn't be allowed to abort if her life is in danger - she was aware of this and should accept the consequences of her actions (getting pregnant).

Rape and incest, however, are different because the woman doesn't have a choice in the matter.”

“Well, I had a pretty good rant going (sorry Fritz) and I'm glad that I didn't post it and decided to refresh this page instead. BB, his words ring true. Look like they shoulda gotten you to word the contract! LOL----

Fritz - I respect your statment.....I stand by everythng I said....

This one of the last great things about this Country we live in. We all have the right to speak and think freely. Why can't this extend to other things? Will we ever get to a point where we all just respect our individual stances? I don't think so, but it's a nice thing to think about :)”

“The question is, when does "life" begin; when something is born, or when something is conceived?

Birth is too arbitrary. I have identical twin boys. Between the birth of the first and the second, there was absolutely no difference between them that could be used to defend an assertion that one was "alive" and the other was not.

Some used to talk about "viability." When the baby could live outside the womb, it was considered a baby and deserved to be protected. But pro-choicers are distancing themselves from that now, because we see that as the decades roll by, the time during which a baby is not "viable" is getting smaller and smaller. In fact, it is shrinking from both ends, now that babies can be conceived outside the mother's body. Some day, it may well be that the entire process can be done outside the mother's body, and then the viability argument is worthless, as is the "life begins at birth" argument. And that has nothing to do with religion.

My views on when life begins have nothing to do with the Bible or religion.

Pro-lifers believe that life begins at conception, and maily base this on religoius views . . . Our country was founded on the separation of church and state, and, to me, this is more a moral religious issue, than a legal one . . . In a strictly legal assessment, I think abortion should be legal, based on the information above.

Separation of church and state is so often mis-applied. It was clearly intended to prevent the government from limiting the religious lives of the people. Too often it is used for the opposite purpose, to RESTRICT the religious activities of those who choose to practice them.

Even here, we have the argument that the public policy views of religious people are somehow less valid, or even invalid, because of the religious basis. That does not strike me as a valid application of the separation of church and state.

Maybe religious people should just forfeit their right to vote. :)”

“I have a problem with the caveat that lots of people toss out there "except in the case of incest or rape". Put yourself in the shoes of a girl who has been raped or is the victim of incest. She would have to go to a judge and explain what happened to get approval for an abortion. Is she going to fear being removed from her home? Fear someone will try to exact retribution from her? Can you see this happening? It would be like torturing someone who is already bleeding. I don't believe in legislating anti-abortion beliefs, except to prevent late term abortions. I do think that those of us who are concerned about unwanted children should try to provide a home for those children, and provide a safe place with healthy food for pregnant women to live while the baby grows.”

“Mutt...I don't know what a neocon is, nor do I see the contradiction.

You take a life to save a life.

You don't take a life to save a career, or to prevent embarassment, or to save for house.

You take a life to save a life.

We do that with conjoined twins. We do it with problem pregnancies in extremem cases.

Where is the contradiction?”

“When is the fetus alive is a very different question than when is it a person?

There is a huge array of living things that are not human.

Does the life of a fetus count? Yes, of course. Is it a person? No.

The idea that a fetus is a person and that abortion is murder is a modern invention.

Jewish tradition... as far as it can be documented has always held that a baby becomes a person and its life becomes equal to that of a human when it first draws breath. This should be a guide to interpreting Old Testament morality.

Christian tradition has not held that abortion is murder. For a long time, in Christendom, the life of the fetus was not considered morally significant until the quickening.”

“My take is, there are too many people on the damn planet as it is. Sorry if that's crass but we need to take a serious look at resources. They're being drained away by overpopulation. Ever been to an orphanage? There's tons of kids there and a lot of them go on to shiitty lives and to perpetuate a lot of the problems that exist on the planet. Why should anyone have to bring an unwanted child into the world? Only children that will be loved and cared for should be brought into the world. People need to stop having massive families. We don't live in an age where there's a 20% survival rate anymore. And most importantly, dumbasses need to learn to practice birth control. That's what I love about a lot of the religious right, especially Catholics. They most f'cked up division of Christianity to ever exist. Abortions are bad and so are handing condoms in schools or going on birth control. That's why I'll never respect their opinion. Too full of contradictions. Being pro-death penalty while being anti-choice is just too much for me. Who are these people?”

“


looks like a person to me. abortions have killed more people than all wars. it's funny who seems to protest war........

curiouser and curiouser....


geo, i too know someone who had an abortion, i think she was 16. it haunts her some 25 years later and has ever since, and she would beg anyone she knows not to do this. her gut told her right from wrong, not a bible or preacher or judge or president. women should be made more aware of this post abortion traumatic syndrome.”

“When the prolifers have adopted every crack baby, every baby that has birth defects and all the unwanted babies, then I will listen to what they have to say.

I don't agree with abortion for me but I think of quality of life of the baby over quantity.”

“Not going to wade into this one, but CNN is debating it on Crossfire at 7 EST”

“those evil and mean babies are back...........all future and past babies should be wiped off the face of the earth.”

“Just a few words.

1.A baby is not a mastake.
2.If you don't want it give it to someone who does want a child.

Thats all I have to say!

8)”

“There is no gray here folks, this issue is black or white. Rape, incest, 1st trimester, 10th trimester, no matter.... NATURAL life begins at conception or birth, take your sides.”

“Rosey,

A. The Catholic Church is not pro-death penalty. For example, ever seen the movie Dead Man Walking?

B. The Catholic Church believes that sex outside of marriage is wrong, hence their stance on condoms in the class room and birth control pills.

C. The Catholic Church believes that abortion is wrong just like most other churches.

I fail to see any contradiction in their message unless you think preaching morality (i.e. don't screw everything that walks) is wrong.

As for me, I say, if you want to suck your kid into a sink, that's your business. At least I won't have to pay to support them for the next 18 years.”

“I just wish those babies would stop inserting those #&%!$es into vaginas”

“Savage:

I was on a bit of a rant there and the description of the Catholics got rammed into other trains of thought. I'm aware of the distinctions. Sorry for the confusion.”

“yeah!”

“if we killed the babykillers when they were babies, would we be having this discussion?”

“future and past babies, wipe 'em out”

“i agree original.

please refer to me as clone jello fog, adn i will refer to you as original.

8)”

“Savage I wish those in the church who were preaching morality were also practicing it!!

CMB--Who wants to adopt drug addicted and birth defect babies? Pretty much NO ONE!!!”

“JELLO FOG, SHUT THE HE!! UP YOU MORON”

“when i hear a woman who has gone thru with an abortion actually say she has done the right thing, ill side with the pro-choicers. abortion is a rallying flag for some feminists to get back at men for all the years when women were second-class citizens. if spreading our seed wasnt such an imperative biological drive and therefore so fundamentally important to us, these women wouldnt have it to hold over our heads. simply put, abortion is revenge.”

“i don't wanna argue with anyone. i really don't care what the law is cuz like i said, i know in my heart it's wrong. even if i'd never heard of God, i'd know it's wrong. and i have never heard an argument that makes me think it's right. crack babies? killum. birth deffect? killum. go ahead, have a blast. like CMB said, there are lots of people who would love to adopt an unwanted child. it's just a justification for women to be sluts...get all philosophical er whatever, i just can't see it any other way. to me, it's personal...if you believe it, fine...that's your choice. i don't understand how anyone can say it's not a child when premies live sometimes well before the cutoff for abortions. and for the record, partial birth abortions ARE still performed to this day. i also have never understood the strength of this issue when it coms to voting. i know and have known many who are basically very conservative, yet they vote with the liberals because of this one issue. single issue voters astound me. anyways, hope nobody hates me for my opinions or for my willingness to verbalize them but if they do...oil well. i'll still be your friend even if you disagree with me.”

“i forget who said it, and typically, it got lost in the argument, but the fundamentally most important fact is, for nine months IT AINT YOUR DAMN BODY! its a symbiotic relationship of you and an other. please, you have the right to do with your body what you please. thats why i support gay rights and legalizing prostitution and most drugs. but theres 8 or 9 pounds in there that aint yours! and for those who have had consensual sex, HELL NO you have no right to be even thinking about it. this discussion does not apply to you. you knew what could happen, deal with it. only in the case of sexual assault and danger to the mother does the water get murky. and even then i feel abortion is the wrong decision, although i am less inclined to say it is an immoral one.”

“Strat I didn't say 'killum' I just pointed out that it is easy for all to say have every child... but not so easy to deal with the outcome. And with all the dead beat dads and absent fathers and with the idealogical thoughts of 'I just want to spread my seed'. I just get tired of it all being put on the woman and or girl. She has to have it, She has to put it up for adoption, She has to... A man can mostly walk away with almost impugnity. So unless you are certifiably shooting blanks, I believe you have a great responsibility... all birth control has a failure rate!”

“abstenance has been prooven to work 100% of the time.....


what about adoption? why not stress that more and abortion less?”

“And the point is that who (again) wants to adopt a less than perfect child? There are not enough foster homes for children. Think of the children that they found starved (one dead) and this is happening with more frequency today. Very sad.”

“The strong look for more strength,
the weak look for excuses!"
tango
07:44:38 PM
01/20/03


so i guess abortion is for weak people to make them feel strong. everybodies heard of the waiting lines for adoption. i understand the argument you are making, i've heard it many times....but it's not our job to pull the plug on a human or to determine someone's value because of their happiness. it's like saying....that guy bacpac is so miserable, we should just shoot him. who...other than violin, would actually shoot him for having a hard life? if i fall into bad luck, loose my home, get sick....are you gonna decide i'm not worth living and abort my life? shouldn't i have a say in the matter? it's not an argument, when carried through and applied to other situations, that i can support.”

“essentially, arguing that the high number of unwanted children justifies abortion is and ends-justifies-the-means argument, and is therefore basically a flawed argument. i applaud your compassion, but take issue with your logic.”

“and just for the record, im pretty much atheist, so this is not a religous conviction”

“actually, the ppl who are genuinely suicidal, we could abort them. if scientists can find the suicide gene, and your baby has it, go right ahead and abort it. all the others, if they had a choice, do you really think they would say "please kill me" no matter how crappy their life was? life sucks. but sometimes being alive is all youve got and you cling to that so tenaciously when everything else has gone south. a #&%!$ life is better than no life. try to kill someone with nothing left to lose, and see how quietly they go into that dark night”

“hey, did you know roe vs wade is 30 years old today?”

“and ill be 33 next month. im glad i got in under the wire (no pun intended)”

“Fritz stole my thoughts...Abortion IMHO is almost unthinkable...makes me sick..I also don't think it's a religious issue..because if you think about it those that believe in life after death..believe that the babies soul will carry on...those that are athiest, are the ones that should really be bothered by this..Pow there went your one shot at existence..pretty fecked :(”

“Planned Parenthood clinics are a great place to pick up chicks.

A. The chicks are for a reason.

B. If you happen to knock them up, you know they'll "take care" of it.

C. Ready access to Birth Control means so B doesn't happen.”

“Straty sez:

"what about adoption? why not stress that more and abortion less..."

Q sez :

Have you tried to adopt? Do you know what you have to go through to adopt? How much does it cost? How long does it take? How easy is it?

My point is that people of your like mindness, can always site this, but do yo really know how that system is set up? Do you know what kind of kids are there? How long have they been there. Have they been through the route before? how many times? Why is it that people are more than willing to go to China/Asia to adopt? Lot's O' questions fer you, young man......


I 100% respect your stance on this, just don't throw pasta to the wall and hope it's ready....”

“well i think it must be easier to adopt a feriner baby than one here. i mean, what's the deal? why is it so hard? are there not ways to improove the system? why would anyone want a baby to die rather than get adopted? maybe a rich, nice good hearted family adopts a couple of them, who knows. that's what i mean by stressing it more ...make it easier, make it faster, make it better. your throwing the baby out with the bathwater....”

“no matter what you do, those babies keep appearing...................those babies are mean I tell ya, and sneaky”

“ok well for my .02 ...
1. it is not the goverments place to legislate morality, after all goverment is inherantly immoral.

2. while a baby is a living creature during the first trimester it is not a human being by a long shot.

3. I myself feel the real problem is that most of the women getting abortions are not mature enough to make that decision.

4. The father has no say in the matter when if fact he should have the right to block an abortion.

5. adoption while a better choice isnt as easy a solution as many would claim. Many who try to adopt do so for less then ideal reasons which are difficult and costly to screen out.

6. Anyone who claims things were better prior to roe vs wade just hasnt run across all the clothes hanger abortions that were done and the women who were maimed in the process.

7. while I would be the first one to outlaw abortion I just dont see many people willing to deal with all the unwanted children.

8. with all the birth control choices availible It is almost irresponsible for anyone to get pregnant when they dont want to. Most of these unwanted pregnancies are to young women who fail to use birth control properly.

In the end untill we as a society decide to take responsibility for our unwanted children and people take a much more active role in planning I just dont see how this law can change inspite of its immoral nature. Nor can I see how anyone can claim it is a fair law untill men are allowed a say in the life of their own child both before and after birth.

put a different way it is a shamefull but needed law.”

“I agree with Tango and I don't think that throwing cheap shots at her will make your point. Abortion is not a woman's revenge against a man. It is an unthinkable act. But there are plenty of men who have sex and then walk away from the consequences. Fritz claims that in his view, men have mostly responsibilities and few rights when it comes to children. He feels that way because he is an honorable man who steps up to the plate when someone responsible is needed. There are many households run by women where the fathers of the babies are long gone. For generations, this has been happening. Birthcontrol is not foolproof, men do seek sex before almost any other need, our culture promotes sex, and mostly it is the women or girls who pay the price, with their freedom, their standard of living, and their dreams of being someone important. Are these women wrong for not abstaining? Absolutely, but look at the whole picture, not just on her part in it.

Being a mother is something important, but often it feels like being the one person that the family members feel that they can heap their bad feelings on, and heap their demands on. Being a main caregiver is a psychologically demanding job if you try to do it well. I see many women who mentally abdicate. They become somewhat vacant as a defense. Or they throw themselves into a career, and basically leave the older kids to fend for themselves. Raising kids is a big job, and so I agree that quality is far better than quantity. I would prefer to legislate promotion of abstinance and pregnancy prevention than legislate against abortion. Bush's plan to promote marriage strikes me as ludicrous. Marriage has been promoted by our culture for centuries.

Abortion is morally wrong. So is child abuse, neglect and abandonment. Let's focus more on the children who are alive, and try to raise children who won't want to or need to have an abortion.”

“And, for those of you who think that the birth control options available should be enough to prevent unwanted pregnancies, I suggest that there should be a class in high school for the boys, where they have to go through the motions of

1)obtaining all the various birth control methods
2)learn all about how each method is used, with lots of hands on practice, using a dummy of course.
3)take a pill everyday at the same time of day for several years just to see if they can handle it (most people can't even manage this with a 10 day antibiotic prescription). I would also recommend that they take a prescription that provides a monthly period but that would be fiction at this point in time. But it would be nice to see all the men stressing over how many days late their period is.”

“"simply put, abortion is revenge."

2scoops
07:20:53 PM
01/22/03

That statement is so asinine, that the possibility for intelligent discussion doesn't exist.

Well spoken, Lyndy.”