Saddam Gassed His Own People

“lol violin....he can hit a knats nard at 1,000 yards. i've seen him shoot....


i'm tired of all this shiot....let's just go hiking and pretend everything is right with the world......”

“A moral thing to do would be to de-radicalize and modernize the ME. What's immoral is for the islamofascists and the secular despots to keep their populations subjugated and ignorant.

I absolutely agree. However I have major doubts that we can impose change through military action. So many of the region’s inhabitants have been brainwashed into thinking that we are merely continuing the Crusades that an attack on Iraq would only serve to confirm their world view.”

“Well said, Violin. Military might is not going to change their fundamental beliefs.”

“Amen to that, Folks. It may just bring about more of these damn lunatic suicide bombers on our shores. I would hate to see that as a by product of military action”

“Well said, Violin. Military might is not going to change their fundamental beliefs

We have historical precedence that a combination of military might and modernization can turn nations around. Germany and Japan.

As we have seen, economic engagement alone doesn't seem to work - Iran and China are good examples of this.

Military intervention or the threat of it, combined with a regime change and economic engagement may remake the ME into something more desirable.”

“I look forward to Powell's presentation tomorrow. It may clear up a lot of doubts.”

“Peace through Americanism??? Folks, I contend that will never work in the Arab world

What reasons do you have for this?”

“And another thing about "fundamental beliefs": these people have been brainwashed. Violin agrees with this. So the America-hating is not necessarily a fundamental belief. As I understand it, the fundamentals of Islam is that it is peaceful, but has been perverted into something evil. I believe their mindset can change for the better, because the way they think now - that's not the product of free thought.”

“My argument all along has been twofold:

Attacking Iraq without imperical proof would only serve to create MORE terrorism. On top of that, some people say there is an Al Queda link to McVeigh, what that means to me is that dissillusioned American Servicemen will side with them.... these guys have been some of the most successful terrorists we've seen operate on American soil.

Other countries are currently guilty of what the U.S. is accusing Iraq of (and we have proof), the U.N. is responsible for enforcing the resolutions against Iraq, as member nations we can keep hounding the U.N. but keep in mind when Bush came into the Whitehouse he took a hands off role in the ME. If we want to take an active role in WMD and terrorism NK, and SA are the countries we should be focusing on. NK is currently using one of the most horrible and effective WMD's on it's people everyday... MASS starvation”

“Attacking Iraq without imperical proof would only serve to create MORE terrorism

Proof or not, there may be an increased tempo of operations. Suicide (or Homicide) bombers may be a problem. But groups like Al Qaeda - the ones capable of 9/11 scale operations - are already at operational capacity. They have never been short of recruits. Its not like they can field every poverty-stricken islamic nut who comes along to sign up. Their organizational structure doesn't allow for it.”

“"Peace through Americanism??? Folks, I contend that will never work in the Arab world

What reasons do you have for this?"
Mutt
10:55:28 AM
02/04/03

Just my casual observation after upon reviewing the History of the region for the last 1000 years or so. I could be wrong, but it certainly appears that way to me.

The Crusaders didn't leave much of a mark.”

“I guess maybe I minced words... I'm sure they'd love to field every former American Service nut who's good with a rifle or can McGyver together a giant bomb out of a moving truck and some fertilizer...


terrorists may not have everyday suicide bombings in supermarkets in America, but they do try the occasional BIG attack... we may be watching the airports, nuclear plants, amusement parks, but they will look for something... it doesn't take much...”

“On the topic of free thought – I wonder if such a thing is even truly possible in this world. As educated as the population of this country is, propaganda continues to work pretty well – just read this thread. How much easier it must be in a region with high illiteracy rates.”

“"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
-- Mark Twain”

“propaganda continues to work pretty well – just read this thread

Uh oh! Them's fightin' words. ;-) So who's perspective, then, is based on propaganda? And why do you think so?”

“Have you guys ever read Twain's "War Prayer"(not sure of the title)?”

“The below dosen't reflect my viewpoint on Iraq.. I'm for military action.. but thought I'd share the below. :-)

Sing along to the tune of "If You're Happy and You Know It Clap Your Hands":

If You're Happy And You Know It Bomb Iraq
by John Robbins

If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistanis looking shifty,
North Koreans too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think that someone's dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.

It's pre-emptive non-aggression, bomb Iraq.
To prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They've got weapons we can't see,
And that's all the proof we need,
If they're not there, they're somewhere
Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Saddam's gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
And he tried to kill your dad,
Bomb Iraq.

If corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that ain't easy,
And your manhood's gettin' queasy,
Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Let's make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.”

“I was just going off on an existential tangent. I don’t think any of us can completely break free from the effects of propaganda. Some are probably better than others and we all probably think we’re pretty good at it and those we disagree with are hopelessly enslaved.”

“Good levity break, Artex. I like it”

“What's a levity?”

“This thread sure as hell is full of GAS!”

“Comic relief, Arty...”

“Oh.”

“"It is a fashionable assertion in these troubled times that nations
must focus on economic, not military strength. Over the long
run, it is true, no nation can remain militarily strong while
economically exhausted. But I would remind you that defeats on
the battlefield occur in the short run.... [P]ower still matters.
More precisely, economic power is not a replacement for military
power. Lest we forget, Kuwait's economic wealth did not protect
it from the predatory Saddam Hussein; quite the opposite. Nor was
the Iraqi dictator finally driven from Kuwait because his GNP was
smaller than that of the U.S., Britain or Japan. It is not the
industrial productivity of democracies that is feared by ... armed
bandits ... but the kill rates of their gunships." --Ronald Reagan



the fear of terrorist reprisals is no reason to let a man who has trained and equiped terrorist to build up an arsenal which can be used againt us again. they planned their 9-11 attacks during the clinton administration. they will attack us no matter what because they hate us and they think we are weak and will not fight back because of our fear of terrorist reprisals.....guess they're right. they win...


regan put kodafi in his place, as i recall....ain't heard a peep outta that SOB since....


i know i don't know all them fancy schmancy words that ya'll use...sorry if i offend the intellectual elite....”

“I suppose there is a kernel of truth in any statement. The following is also from the Saddam Hussein/ April Glaspie meeting:

“I do not belittle you. But I hold this view by looking at the geography and nature of American society into account. Yours is a society which cannot accept 10,000 dead in one battle.” ”

“Obviously Saddam has never been to Gettysburg or Shiloh. While we didn't pile up quite that many at Normandy, it was close.

Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, Iwo Jima.....the hard grit fighting during two Tet Offensives...

I think 10,000 dead in one battle would really piss us off.”

“Too......weak......to.....fight......back






weak from LMAO!!!”

“Please tell me I am reading you wrong. Are you blaming Clinton for the 9-11 attacks?”

“I don’t think any of us can completely break free from the effects of propaganda. Some are probably better than others and we all probably think we’re pretty good at it and those we disagree with are hopelessly enslaved

I don't share that point of view in the black-and-white manner you presented. But I do agree, to the extent that people are arguing about WMD and terrorist links being justifications for war, the Bush Propaganda Machine has been effective in shaping the debate. Popular media sure has bought it hook, line and sinker. It's basically only professional analysis from private think-tanks that have pierced through this fog and considered the larger issues at play, with the occasional op-ed piece from the major news orgs.

So I understand and respect people's concerns about having proof of terrorist links or pursuit of WMD - I am concerned as well. But the handwaiving away without *any* rebuttal or critical analysis of some of the other issues proves to me people have a very difficult time recognizing their own guilt in buying into propaganda - particularly in regards to the nature of the popular debate.”

“they will attack us no matter what because they hate us and they think we are weak and will not fight back because of our fear of terrorist reprisals.....guess they're right. they win

Not if we invade Iraq - they lose the initiative. Before the 90's the Arabs never did anything to the U.S. because they thought it was futile and suicidal. We need to convince them they were right.”

“ITs like "bad science" where the conclusion is reached first and supporting evidence is sought to support the conclusion.”

“Isn't that kinda what Powell is doing today?”

“Although I'm not overly fond of Stratfor's perspective on foreign policy, here's a snippet of a Stratfor article that sums up my position nicely:

On the day the war ends, and if the United States is victorious, then the entire geopolitics of the region will be redefined. Every country bordering Iraq will find not the weakest formations of the Iraqi army along their frontiers, but U.S. and British troops. The United States will be able to reach into any country in the region with covert forces
based in Iraq, and Washington could threaten overt interventions as well. It would need no permission from regional hosts for the use of facilities, so long as either Turkey or Kuwait will permit transshipment into Iraq. In short, a U.S. victory will change the entire balance of power in the region, from a situation in which the United States must negotiate its way to war, to a situation where the United States is free to act as it will.


There you go. Right now the U.S. doesn't have enough leverage in the ME to fight the war on terrorism. The logical extension of this argument is that the U.S. will have free reign to pursue terrorists and their funders in the region.”

“Just looking at a map leads one to think that is the real reason for this war.

That gets us back to the question: Do we have a moral right to rule the world by force?”

“Do we have a moral right to rule the world by force?"

Now how do you equate pursuing terrorism and reshaping the ME to be 'rul[ing] the world by force'?

We're at war. Force needs to be used. The U.S. is not interested in ruling the world. The U.S. is interested in maintaining peace and stability.”

“Just reading the reports on Powell's attempt in the U.N. Unless I am missing something, this was 99% hype and no more substance than we had yesterday or last month or whatever.”

“You’ve read The Project for the New American Century material. You know what is called for there as well as in the “Bush Doctrine”.

Has any war on terrorism ever worked? (I don’t know – are there examples?) I don’t think we want to see a repeat of the Northern Ireland or Israeli experience on a larger scale, with the US as the target. Can war defuse the root causes of terrorism or only inflame the passions that cause it?”

“Has any war on terrorism ever worked? (I don’t know – are there examples?)

Sure. During Sharon's crackdown last spring, there were no homicide bomber attacks in Israel. It was only after the US/UN forced him to withdraw did the bombings start up again.

I don’t think we want to see a repeat of the Northern Ireland or Israeli experience on a larger scale, with the US as the target.

We're already the target! You remember 9/11? If we don't take action, the terrorists will become emboldened. If we do take action, then at least we have a chance to win. I mean, you're not seriously suggesting we negotiate and appease the terrorists, are you?

Can war defuse the root causes of terrorism or only inflame the passions that cause it?"

The passions were there before the 90's. There were no mainland attacks. It was only after their perception of U.S. strength shifted, did they find action and funding possible. Regardless of the passions, if you eliminate the funding and deny them a geographic stronghold, then you reduce terrorism as much as is humanly possible.”

“Just read what Powell had to say, although not as thoroughly as I'd like (work is busy today). I'm convinced military action is necessary.”

“Has any war on terrorism ever worked? (I don’t know – are there examples?)

Another example: our military intervention in Afghanistan. Almost everyone was expecting a counter attack for dispersing AQ and the Taliban. It never came. In fact there were no AQ operations until around 9 months later - after they regrouped elsewhere in the ME and SE asia and Africa. The US needs to shut down the funding and pursue them wherever they regroup.”

“Did I miss something, Arty? What was there that wasn't yesterday?”

“…you're not seriously suggesting we negotiate and appease the terrorists, are you?

No but I don’t think we’ve been very good at engaging moderate elements of Arab society which I think probably make up the majority.

I would argue that Sharon earned a brief reprieve by reoccupying the West Bank. Long term effects were negative for Israel.”

“Photos of alleged chemical weapons being loaded on trucks prior to inspectors arriving, details on intercepted conversations to clear the area of "forbidden weapons" before the inspectors come, and some other facts.

To me, that's new information. Even if it reinforces what has been stated all along, isn't that enough? IMO, it is.”

“Long term effects were negative for Israel

Oh really. How? And be specific. And I think Israelis would disagree with you: Sharon's party just won big in the recent election.”

“Sadam has been shown to be in material breach, imo”

“If Israelis knew where they were headed, few would have voted for him the first time around. The effects of this infitada have been horrible for the entire ME, Israel included. We'll only know the long term results in... well, the long term. So far it looks like a disaster.

We are getting a little off topic.


Do you have any links to a full text of Powell's speech Artex? Anyone?”

“Violin, I just read the front story on Foxnews.com, it just gives exerpts for now. I'm sure they'll have the full speech up later. I scanned through some AP articles on yahoo news as well.

FoxNews.com also has satellite photos of Iraqi cargo trucks, as well as sanitization trucks used to clean out areas where weapons of mass destruction are allegedly being manufactured.”