Saddam Gassed His Own People

“We are getting a little off topic.

True. You have yet to refute my assertion that cutting funding and denying geography will reduce terrorism, and that this is precisely what invading Iraq will allow us to pursue.”

“Iraq has chemical weapons. That is known. I mean, we sold them enough of the stuff ourselves, if you remember. They are under a microscope and will be for quite some time. IMO, this still doesn't warrant immediate invasion.”

“U.S. hegemony, real or perceived, is at least one of the root causes that inflames the passions of Islamofascism.

In the long term U.S. occupation of Iraq may be seen as a manifestation of U.S. hegemony.

Fasten your seatbelts, ladies and gentlemen, this could get bumpy.”

“They are under a microscope and will be for quite some time. IMO, this still doesn't warrant immediate invasion

Actually, I agree. The likelihood of Sadam getting away with much right now is slim.

Bush should be dealing militarily with North Korea.”

“This will get bumpy, Tom. You said it, my friend. ANyone who thinks this will be quick and easy is being disillusioned, I believe. The repercussions can be devastating. Frankly, I pray I am wrong. As far as N, Korea goes, they really are the ones that worry me.”

“N. Korea?

Let them work it out with S. Korea and stay out of the way.

This military adventurism is going to break the bank.”

“Don’t expect me to rebut your every point mutt. I really don’t have a fully formed opinion on all this and consider myself a student. Much of what you have argued here makes sense to me.

Your Sept 11 reference is a red herring though. There has been no credible link made between Al Qaeda and Saddam. In fact, I linked earlier to the NY Times article about CIA analyst who were upset about the politicizing of intelligence and stated that after studying possible links for over a year, didn’t think links existed. Blix has echoed that opinion. Al Qaeda views regimes like Saddam’s as corrupt and want him gone as badly as we do. There is very little chance that they could become partners, despite their shared hatred of the west. If Iraq had nothing to do with past terrorism against us, we have no justification for attacking them, geography or not.

However - if Iraq were behind 9/11 or other attacks against us then we are perfectly justified in taking Hussein out. In fact, I’d urge a swift congressional declaration of war and a full invasion as quickly as possible. Like many are saying: “show the proof”.”

“U.S. hegemony, real or perceived, is at least one of the root causes that inflames the passions of Islamofascism.

I agree with "perceived", but I don't think the root cause is U.S. hegemony. For one thing, the U.S. is trying to gain hegemony by invading Iraq. Our ability to directly influence nations in the Arabian Peninsula right now is rather shaky, and we're by no means the only major player in the region.

Another reason I disagree with the "root cause" argument is that it's rather disingenous to single out America's actions when there's factors in the ME which explain more of the anger among the Arab Street. I believe the true root causes stem from the fact that the Arab Street is disenfranchised from power and economic self-determination. The reason the ME is so backwards is because of all the despots, monarchs, and islamofascist governments. They keep the population impoverished, uneducated, and brainwashed. So it's not the U.S. that is inflaming islamofascist passions. In fact the U.S. is apparently the only power willing to give the Arabs what they need most: democracy, liberty, economic freedom, etc.”

“i watched some of Powell's speech when i was just at the gym. all i saw him talking about were things that happened in the 1980s...he was using those as excuses for what we should do now??

i'm reading a book right now called "Busted," which explains why the War on Drugs is a total crock...and the author said the War on Terrorism is today's War on Drugs. totally divorced from reality. i thought that was a pretty good analogy.”

“This military adventurism is going to break the bank

I guess I'd rather be temporarily broke than have the spectre of a nuclear arsenal and ICBMs in North Korea.

But your point is taken.”

“Mutt, I agree with a lot of things you say, in general. But, to imply that we are going to invade the place with such 'noble' intentions seems to undermine your base argument for going in and pulling the 'power play.'”

“Don’t expect me to rebut your every point mutt

Yes, I see your perspective as well. I'm not sure there's a correct or moral path to follow in all of this.

Your Sept 11 reference is a red herring though. There has been no credible link made between Al Qaeda and Saddam

Yes, and that is the difference between us. You see Iraq as an end in itself. I see Iraq as a means to achieve a greater end.

But now I think we're both repeating our positions!”

“Treebeard, what is not noble about protecting our country? The U.S. is a decent democracy. "Liberating" the Iraqis and installing democracy, freedom, et al is just a beneficial side-effect of American intervention. Not the main reason to intervene, however.”

“So, giving them freedom and democracy is not our main objectives, right?”

“"One" of the root causes.......among others!”

“I think his presentation (I call it that because he had audio tape, video tape, pictures, and other slides) was pretty effective. I know some of those things could be faked, but I think most of it was genuine. I think that based on his evidence the U.N. HAS to act. Again I will state there are bigger threats to America that we seem to be ignoring, but if we continue to let Iraq slide Iraq's threat will only grow.

The U.N. NEEDS to act, and yes I am considering re-enlisting, I encourage anyone else who feels the same about Iraq to do the same...”

“Ok, I can see that. I guess I just get a little upset when I see the administration 'sugar coat' things, especially when i don't feel they have been leveling with us.”

“Good luck on the "installation" process.

"We" didn't install any of those noble institutions in Sodomy Arabia, yet "they" are or "friends".......”

“Tom, don't forget Germany and Japan. And we haven't overthrown SA militarily and started over from scratch there. Big difference!”

“Friends like that we don't need. Talk about regimes that abuse their own people. I don't know of a country that has poured more into harboring terrorists than SA”

“Wow! HUGE reversal there Donman!

I knew I should have programmed my VCR this morning. I hope someone shows the whole thing unedited tonight.”

“I watched the whole thing. I heard it described that it was more of an abstract painting that if you stepped away from it you could see the picture... I think that's pretty accurate.

Like I said the U.N. started this therefore the U.N. should act, the U.S. has to be very careful here because there are bigger (and more immediate threats), and acting alone could quite possibly make the situation worse.”

“I like the comparing to the abstract painting.. that's how I've been trying to view it all.

However, wouldn't a comparison to an impressionist painting, such as Monet's "Water Lillies", a more favorable style to compare it to?

(sorry, just felt the need for a little silliness)”

“I haven't had time to see or hear much about the presentation yet.

If the facts are laid out as clearly as don indicates, then I would say many of my questions will be laid to rest.”

“What a bunch of pigs we are.

While we were wrapped up in our testosterone induced posturing, a babe walked in and we didn’t even offer her our barstool.
8D

I agree lyra. ‘War on Terrorism’ is an abuse of the language. There is no such thing as a war on a concept. We are at war with those who would murder civilians for political gain.”

“they played a tape of an Iraqi Colonel (isn't it funny that there's no "r" in Colonel?) talking to an Iraqi Captain saying to omit all instances of the words "Nerve Agents" from all wireless instructions.”

“aawwww! thanks, Violin.

wow, that's such a good book. everything i hear, i compare to it. LOL!”

“As reported by AP...

"Sen. Joseph Biden of Delaware told reporters, "If I had this evidence before a jury that was an unbiased jury, I could get a conviction.""

Makes me believe that the presentation was pretty substantial.”

“That wasn't the cpmplete quote, Chili. Read the rest of it.”

“Yeah, I saw that also Chili.. It should be noted that Biden is also a Democrat.”

“i only got to listen to bits and pieces on the radio. what heard seemed pretty damaging to the iraqi cause as well as the blame america first croud. like i've been saying all along, there will always be 25% of the people who simply hate bush and will oppose him no matter what.”

“Don't get me wrong, Bush is still technically a traitor for his Vietnam record. He was either AWOL or a deserter and as such should be shot”

“at least you have integrity don. i can respect your honesty and openmindedness on the iraq thing.

btw, i wouldn't try doing that to the president. . . .”

“LOL! I probably shouldn't even suggest it, but facts are facts”

“I did get to watch the UN presentation and Had a few impressions about it.

nerve agents, biologic and chemical weapons. In this catagory it is very clear saddam was not disarming and making a concerted effort to hide his arsenal. This is only typical of the idiot but this is also a UN problem and not generally ours.

nuke weapons. It was clear that saddam is persuing nuclear arms but does not have fissile material yet among other problems. This is worrisome but not a particular threat to the US or the UN yet.

It is clear that the maximum missle range he currently has is about 650 kilometers and he is planning to test/build missles in the 1200 kilometer range both of which are in violation of the 150 kilometer UN limit but none of which can reach the US so this is again a UN problem.

With out a weapons platform to deliver payloads to US soil saddam is basicly a military joke when you consider that we do in fact have the capability to bomb him with out even leaving our living room. His weapons of mass destruction are useless against us as are his chemical and biological weapons since he has no military means of delivering them to any battle field outside the middle east.”

“As many of you will recall our gulf war They hyped saddams military capabilities heavily during thier campaign to rally public opinion however when the war actually came all we really saw was a few scud missles and the iraqi soldiers falling over themselves to surrender. Where was this terrifing military power that we were over there to fight? I just dont find any assertion of the Iraqi military to be a creditable threat to US forces and consider this to be a local problem to be dealt with by the local natives rather then US troops.

On the other hand there is the terrorist issue. While Powell did make it clear that Iraq was running training camps for mercenary forces and that various terrorist were using iraq as a base of operations I did not see definitive proof of Iraqi involement in 9/11. Iraqs support of terrorism has been well known and documented for over twenty years so this is no surprise.

This is a case of the differance between knowing they did it and proving they did it. While I think the US should encourage the UN to act against saddam I dont see that an all out war by the US is justified. The only creditable threat Saddam poses is in fact his continued support of terrorism and this is a matter that should be handled with surgical strikes rather then an all out assualt.”

“Put in a different light I dont see that iraq poses a grave enough threat to risk the lives of US military personnel in an all out assualt. These are our children we are risking and I for one am not one to throw away a single one over oil prices or speculation on saddams military. Nor am I willing to advocate the US becoming the worlds bully for overhyped polical guesswork.

Locating and destroying terrorist training camps inside Iraq using satellites and high altitude bombings would be more then sufficient response to Iraqs current posture and would be within established protocol as we have used this technique before. We would minimise any risk to US forces and most goverments would not be opposed to this sort of action.

I for one am still waiting for PROOF that iraq took an active part in 9/11 so that we would be justified in kicking thier behinds off the planet but untill then we must remain true to our ideals and remember that even saddam is semi-innocent untill proven guilty.”

“I've come to the conclusion that the U.N. is a joke. Iraq is clearly in material breach of a resolution that the entire U.N. unaminously agreed to, yet they still want to play cat and mouse with mobile trucks and trains that are producing WMD. I don't get it.”

“you get it arty. DOM's the one who doesn't get it. no pffence DOM or anyone else. we're debating here, not arguing.”

“Well, I think DOM makes a lot of sense. I still think that we are shortsighted for putting all the attention to Iraq when the real threat is in places like N. Korea. Enough of the muscle flexing with Iraq already. We all know that militarily we could whip like a gang could beat the hell out of a special ed kid in a school yard. Teddy Roosevelt said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick." (This administration should heed that quote) Let's just not get caught with our pants down again. I agree with DOM, unless these guys produce some evidence of some conspiratorial involvement between Iraq and Al Quada, then perhaps we should prioritize according to who's a bigger threat to our security on the globe.”

“Given North Korea's most recent comments which threaten to preemptively strike America in the face of what they percieve as an inevitable with the U.S., I can see your point treebeard, and it's a totally valid one, IMO. But I still think Iraq poses a very grave threat not so much in the short term as they do in the long term, and action is justified. Just my POV.”

“I appreciate what you say, buddy. I just don't want to see the U.S. do this for all the wrong reasons. I am a little apprhenensive about the aftermath of a military strike. The factions in Iraq are not friendly toward one another. The potential for inner conflict there in trying to set up a government is great. I just hope we are not unnecessarily opening a can of worms here.”

“we could flatten NK 1,000 times over. nobodies that stupid. and this is the kind of thing handled behind the scenes, and maybe even between diplomats that we probably never heard of. it's a chess match. they (we) are working on it. but i don't think attacking them is the answer. of course this is a serious matter. and of course our people are all over it in ways we can't imagine.


by the way, upon reviewing the transcript of powells speech yesterday i think he established a strong tie to al queda and other terrorist groups. it was perfectly clear to me. surely you can see that tree, being one of the most reasonable and thoughtful people on here(not being sarcastic).”

“What you say is true, treebeard. We are seeing that now in Afghanistan. Setting up a "puppet regime" like we did with Japan and Germany post World War II will not be as easy this time around. The warlords and competing factions pose new and different challenges. I'm still confident that the we have a plan to deal with this though, and it's worth the risk. Having an internationl coalition take part in this is very important. I think we can handle the actual war with little support, but the post war phase is where international support will be crucial. I don't know how other countries feel about taking part in that.”

“Maybe I need to more fully read through what was said because my first impression was that the tie in with al quada appeared to be mostly hearsay. In the interest of fairness, I will keep an open mind in the meantime.”

“Well, judging by the deployment of the Charles DeGaulle aircraft carrier to the eastern Mediterranean, and their hint of several thousand soldiers to "secure" Iraqi oil fields, it looks like the French are going to switch sides. Obviously they don't want to be left out of splitting up the Iraqi spoils.

Schroder is basically politically dead and will not put up much of a fight against the war.

Greece's UN president, whats-his-face is an innefectual turd and will likely go wherever France takes him.

So, to me, it looks like the U.S. will get UN support for war. By the Ides of March, I bet we'll be rolling down the Tigris/Euphrates river valley.”

“Do you think it'll be that late? In March?”

“Not sure. That's what our gov't apparently told the Aussies to prepare for.”

“We?”

“no, it's 'oui'.”