Saddam Gassed His Own People

“With France bending like that, it should put the icing on the cake. Bushie will get the war he has so desired for all this time. I just hope this guy isn't doing more damage in the long run. I can't help the feelings of apprehension I have about this whole thing. Gut reactions have been wrong before. Hopefully mne are also.”

“but i don't think attacking them is the answer.

So you support Bush's Clintonesque appeasement policy? Dangle aid in front of Kim in hopes he'll settle down?”

“A while back, we apparently told Israel to prepare for a mid-February attack. But that was at least a month ago. I'm just worried about the weather warming up too much over there to the point where wearing ABC suits will be next to impossible.”

“I think Powell will push for a new UN resolution authorizing force. That should take, what, a month?”

“no mutt.....i have no clue what to do about it. . . ..i'm just a dumb guitar player.”

“Stratdewd: I'll tell you what we should do - we should put Kim down. Hard. Bush is a complete friggin' disingenous ASSHOLE for suggesting Sadam is the bigger threat. We should have parked 5 aircraft carrier battle groups off the Peninsula, increased troops in SK by about 150,000, and engaged in the Pentagon's 'max' operation: overwhelming first strike takes out ICBMs and something like 80 - 90 % of Kim's artillery. That would declaw Kim. It would be rather straightforward, but perhaps costly, to push into Pyongyang.”

“North korea and terrorism are far bigger threats to the US then the UNs inability to police its own policies And neither requires an all out offensive.

Yeah I do get the world situation, I just dont believe we should stick our noses into other peoples business. If we had kept our noses a little cleaner 9/11 wouldnt have happened. Middle east is tired of the US showing up with a lot of holier then thou nonsense and empty promises only to have us leave them high and dry when it comes to finishing what we started. I dont have any illusions why they hate us, we have interfered in their business far too often and rarely kept our promises for little more then to keep our precious oil prices down.

The situation in Iraq does not warrant committing tens of thousands of our children and putting them at risk. As many enemies as Iraq has who are not willing to even defend themselves, WHY should WE deal with saddam. You want to talk about human rights abuses and attrocities hes committed and I agree that his tactics are downright horrible BuT!, Why is it OUR problem?

rend aid to the kurds and whoever else wants to attack iraq? sure

give the UN our support enforcing its resolutions? no problem

Declare war on iraq when it has committed no overt act of war against us? WAIT a second!

You perhaps want to claim we have a moral imperative to attack iraq and be the defenders of the world? OK but, That position requires us to hold ourselves to a much higher standard of both PROOF and ACTION.We cannot allow ourselves to mistake political objectives for morality in these matters And we must ensure that any action we take is truly needed.

BTW some of you obviously havent considered the true cost of war, the terrible moment when the goverment car shows up at your door and someone informs you that one of your family is dead. Think about it and ask yourself if this is really a price you are willing to pay...sometimes sacrifices must be made to keep our world safe but this isnt one of them.”

“If we had kept our noses a little cleaner 9/11 wouldnt have happened. Middle east is tired of the US showing up with a lot of holier then thou nonsense and empty promises only to have us leave them high and dry when it comes to finishing what we started. I dont have any illusions why they hate us, we have interfered in their business far too often and rarely kept our promises for little more then to keep our precious oil prices down

I don't understand America haters. Tell the families of victims of 9/11 it was all our fault. See how well that argument will be received. And then the holier-than-thou 'what about our sons and daughters' argument - wow you have some balls.

9/11 was NOT the fault of the U.S.! Unless you want to blame past presidents for not doing enough militarily to squash the nascent terrorist movement. 9/11 was the fault of radical religious scumbags. It was the fault of the Arab governments. It was the fault of the ignorant disenfranchised Arab Street. It was the fault of the UN's impotence and irrelevance. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR TERRORISTS' ACTIONS!”

“I bet you think Palestinian homicide bombers are heroes.”

“DOM - you bring up a lot of good points. But still, the U.N. initially agreed to the resolution against Iraq and now that Iraq is in clear material breech, it seems that much of the U.N. is backtracking. I don't think giving inspectors more time or tripling their numbers (like the French want to do) is going to prove anything. Powell gave proof of Iraq's mobile capabilities for producing WMD, so it's a total cat and mouse game. That on top of Iraq's noncompliance puts them at further material breech. The U.N. needs to stand by what they initially agreed to do, that's what I have a problem with.”

“BTW some of you obviously havent considered the true cost of war, the terrible moment when the goverment car shows up at your door and someone informs you that one of your family is dead. Think about it and ask yourself if this is really a price you are willing to pay...sometimes sacrifices must be made to keep our world safe but this isnt one of them.

Well said. Whatever other political goals the Bush administration may have in mind, I am still not convinced of a real link between Iraq and al-quaeda. After re-examining the evidence, There seems to be the one man who may be in bagdad, according to US intelligence. He left Afghanistan after the US attacked and made his way to Iraq, where he's staying.

I wonder how many Al-qaeda are in Jordan or Saudi Arabia?

Iraq is not a threat to the US now or in the immediately forseeable future. The Bush administration is ready to sacrifice US servicemen for political gain.

Call it whatever you want, but that's what it boils down to.

Also, DOM, the first gulf war may have statistically been the rout you suggested, but please remember that there was the bombing campaign - the seven months of desert shield - before desert storm. Many men lost their lives there as well. Men trying to navigate the mine-swept channel in the gulf onboard the USS Tripoli and USS Princeton, helicopter crews of the USS Okinawa and attached marine units, as well as many others on land.

There is no action of this sort without a terrible price. I have my doubts that an administration headed by a man of privledge such as W can even begin to comprehend that price, let alone weigh the sacrifice against the gain for the US.

For everyone here who believes in this man completely and trusts him implicitly, take a good look at his military service record and his personal history.

I think politics dictated that Colin Powell be secretary of state, and it has seemed to me - an outsider - that Powell has been at odds with this action for some time. I can't prove it, but he has the look of a man who is resigned to doing his job now - though he disagrees with it.

I don't believe there's anything we as citizens could do that would stop this war from happening. That is frightening to me.

I didn't vote for George W. Bush. He did not win the popular vote, and, but for a thousand votes in Florida, he might not have won the presidency. A man who came this close to never being in office will make a history-changing decision of pre-emptive war whereing the US is the aggressor. Whatever the reason for this, it scares me.”

“make no mistake, I believe the UN should get off their butts and give Iraq a good pasting but that is a different matter from the US doing it.I have long wondered why the UN hasnt gotten around to dealing with iraq when they clearly werent going to abide by the cease fire agreement.

Too bad you werent around for the shah business and so on Mutt, I guess they gloss over that kind of stuff in school these days. Arabic anger over the US isnt that surprising considering our past involvements.”

“Too bad you werent around for the shah business and so on Mutt, I guess they gloss over that kind of stuff in school these days. Arabic anger over the US isnt that surprising considering our past involvements

I imagine I know U.S. history better than you do, dirtyoldman, considering your repugnant, adolescent perspective on terrorist attacks. In fact, your selective memory betrays your lack of knowledge on the subject.”

“Whelp, since Bin Laden was the "mastermind" behind at least four attacks against the US in the past few years, why is it he has fallen to the background? Where the fock is he and why in the fock aren't we putting forth more effort to capture him? What's Saddam done lately? Nothing.

Just remeber, when you're watching the news and our troops are being killed by suicide bombers on the streets of Baghdad, this is what Bush wanted.”

“Just remeber, when you're watching the news and our troops are being killed by suicide bombers on the streets of Baghdad, this is what Bush wantedj

What a load. First, I don't like Bush, but I don't have the nerve to actually suggest Bush wants soldiers killed by homicide bombers. That's inane. Second, you imply Baghdad will be a hostile occupation, with the citizens hating the U.S. for invading - like in Chechnya or Israel. WRONG. The only Iraqis that will fight the U.S. are the power elite - and they will capitulate. The bulk of Iraqis will welcome the chance to earn money and to have freedom. Don't understimate the Iraqis as a bunch of ignorant Islamic terrorists.

The Americans will have to worry about suicide bombers only because of a larger, more visible presence in the ME (and on the mainland for that matter). It will be the islamofascists who will be attacking americans in this way - not the Iraqis.”

“What? You think Bush cares about each and every soldier on the field? Hahahahahahahaha. They're numbers on a sheet to him and his cronies.

I never said it would be the Iraqis, Mutt. I just think Baghdad might be the "mecca" that Islamic extremists come to for a chance to destroy some "evil American Imerialists." Anyone who doesn't think there will be retaliation in this regard is living a pipe-dream.”

“The bulk of Iraqis will welcome the chance to earn money and to have freedom. Don't understimate the Iraqis as a bunch of ignorant Islamic terrorists.
Mutt
10:47:38 AM
02/06/03

Very good point. The Kurds in the north were the victims of chemical/biological weapons attacks some years ago. The only thing preventing them from being wiped out by Saddam are the no-fly zones. I don't think the vast majority of the Iraqi people are anti-Saddam, but of course they cannot vocalize it or they'll be killed, literally.”

“I mistyped my last sentence in my last post. I meant "I think the vast majority of the Iraqi people are anti-Saddam..." Sorry!”

“What? You think Bush cares about each and every soldier on the field? Hahahahahahahaha. They're numbers on a sheet to him and his cronies.

Wow you're cynical and it's clouding your perspective. You're so enamored with hating Bush you're making an emotional leap into the unreasonable. I think Bush is an ignorant ass-clown, but completely detached from human sentiment? Foolish.

I just think Baghdad might be the "mecca" that Islamic extremists come to for a chance to destroy some "evil American Imerialists." Anyone who doesn't think there will be retaliation in this regard is living a pipe-dream

Guess what, genius. Our troops and expats have already been targeted. That it will be recurrent in the future is a given. There will be a multi-national peacekeeping force in Baghdad. Radical islamofascists will be dispersed. The borders will be well patrolled. Yeah, there will probably be incidents as you suggest, but to predict a homicide bomber 'mecca' is, as you put it, 'living in a pipe-dream.'”

“I think the link between Iraq and al Qaeda was tenuous at best. The Washington Post laid that one bare beforehand. Perhaps they have more information they couldn’t let out without jeopardizing sources, but then again, maybe they don’t.

I’m not really very good at analyzing satellite photography, so that one did little for me.

However, the communications intercepts are really the proverbial smoking gun. I’m not sure what a ‘modified vehicle’ is but they sure didn’t want the weapons inspectors to know about it. ‘Nerve agents’ are pretty self-explanatory.

We now have a situation where our allies (and others) are forced to face Iraqi intransigence head on. It’s no longer possible to deny that they are hiding weapons they are not permitted to have under UN mandates. Some will join in, others are still going to oppose us, but the case has been proven.

I agree with Senator Biden’s assessment that while rushing into this position may have been unwise, we are now in a position where we have to act. To withdraw our troops would destroy our credibility and lead to much future violence against our allies and us. I don’t really know the logistics of keeping the current deployment in place for extended periods. Obviously the best case scenario would be for Saddam to realize that we’re coming no matter what and tuck his tail between his legs and bolt.”

“I think you’re assuming a best case scenario, mutt. As they say “hope is not a plan”. I have no doubt that we’ll be able to roll up the north and south in short order. The hard part is Baghdad and surrounding areas. If the Revolutionary Guard, which we didn’t even see during Desert Storm, remain loyal to Saddam, he could position his artillery among the civilian population and dare us to come after him. That would be a blood bath. If we dig in and lay siege to Baghdad, we could face a hostile and restless civilian population – remember Beirut? If there were a revolution in Saudi Arabia while we’re there or Iran mobilizes, our troops would face a threat from the rear. We may well be greeted as liberators but anyone who says he knows now how this will play out is either a liar or a fool.”

“No, Violin. Mutt has ALL the answers...”

“Oh, you're just mad I called you out on having no legitimate basis for your argument, other than a lame emotional plea.

And, I believe Violin meant that to apply to both of us, roseymonster.”

“Hey, Bud. We're all just playing PolySci 101 in here...”

“True that - I guess I got carried away. Sorry.”

“I believe the expression is 'True dat' homeslice.”

“Yeah, Mutt, jeez, you're so white! j/k :-)”

“I have seen some good things on this thread. Everyone seems to make good points in a heated, yet respectful manner. To me, this is Free Speech at its finest.

After yesterday's presentation, I think it is clear that we will once again project military power around the globe in pursuit of Freedom and Liberty. While I have mixed emotions as to the necessity or effectiveness of such action, I am constantly reminded that such action will not be cheap. Not by any means. I don't refer to the costs in terms of dollars, I talk in terms of loss of life.

I have been working on a project for the past several months to learn more of my brother's tour of duty in Vietnam. He served during the First Tet Offensive and was KIA 15 JUN 68.

Today I received the following message. It seemed timely to me as I meditated on the gravity of the current world situation. While we are of differing opinions on what should happen in Iraq or N Korea, let us all take time to reflect on those who will execute on policy as opposed to those who formulate it.

Message is:

james, you should always be proud of your brother and his service to his country. we were young and foolish boys sent to fight a man's war. I was twenty one at the time and was the 3rd oldest member of the platoon. most were 17, 18, or 19 years old. we were good soldiers but did not have the maturity it takes to handle such horror and pain that war inflicts.
my platoon was the 2nd platoon of the D company, 2nd battalion 501st airborne infrantry, of the 2nd brigade, 101st airborne division. our nickname was the delta raiders. a name coined by captain McMinemy when the division deployed to viet nam in december of 1967.
In the winter of 1968 during the Tet Offensive attack by the north vietnamese ,the 2nd brigade was deployed to defend the city of Hue in the northern part of the country known as the quang tri province. the city was beautiful and surrounded by a large wall about 30 or 40 feet high. it was known as the old imperial capital. there were many gardens and pagodas surrounding the city. most of the villagers had never seen white and black men before.we operatated in an area close to the street without joy near the coastline, highway one, and further west to the mountains. the villages were without electricity and the houses were just thatch shacks. very primitive.
as the tet offensive was developing we were airlifted to set up a camp north of the city several miles away. the entire brigade headquartered there. we probably had about 5000 soldiers at the camp. because we were seperated from the division and they were also moving into a camp south of the city, logistics was a nightmare. food, ammunition,clothing, etc. was hard to come by.
when it was realized that the NVA had overtaken the city of Hue we were ordered to fight our way to the city clearing each village south of highway one along the way.your brother was one of the survivors of that action. we fought heavily armed units encountering lots of dead and wounded. in many firefights we encountered numerically superior north viernamese units but still were able to push them back south toward the city or make them flee to the mountains to our west. he fought bravely.
it took several days to take the twenty five miles of territory between us and them. we finally made it to Hue and were told to stop at the wall and protect our position adjacent to a bridge over the perfume river. the next day we were told the marines had been selected to clear the city and we were reassigned to clear the villages of NVA surrounding the city as well as destroying their basecamps located in the mountains nearby Hue.
the fighting lasted until about april with a firefight, booby traps, land mines, or other action being encountered almost daily.several of the battles were large scale ones that were considered significant at the time. one in particular was Phouc Yen. that battle was a classic cordon operation, where we encircled an NVA regiment and pounded them into submission. several hundred NVA were killed and 107 were captured.
my platoon consisted of a full strength of 32 men. most of the time I was lucky to have 20 healthy. at the time of robert's death we had a strength of 13.
after may of 1968 the NVA were difficult to find. they had retreated into the mountains. they only came out at night to raid the closeby villages of rice and young men to replace their dead. we began ambushing the trails and our platoon was quite adept at setting up a successful ambush.
an ambush is a frightening event to say the least. dark, can't see, so quiet you can hear an ant crawl across the ground. your brother was one of the brave men that could control his emotions and trigger the ambush at just the right moment. almost fearless when it mattered the most.
in the days leading up to his death, we had successfully ambushed various size units coming from the mountains several nights in a row. one trail in particular had three nights in a row that an ambush had been triggered. quite frankly we were all nervous and had been operating with only about 4 or 5 hours sleep a night for weeks.
fatigue was setting in and the men needed a rest.
on the day of his death, battalion had ordered my platoon to split up into two ambushes. I only had 13 men at the time. I objected but was told to organize the mission anyway.
since we had triggered an ambush three nights in a row on the trail I selected for platoon sergeant hines, I really thought that location would be safe and they would not have any action. I thought the NVA would not dare use the same trail again.
Sgt. Hines picked his men from the roster and selected the squad led by sgt. wingo. your brother was a member of the squad.
I took a different position about 300 meters away on a different trail. both trails were on the edge of a deserted village northwest of Hue. an old concrete french fort left over from the french war with the Vietnamese was west of us about 2000 meters. the village was deserted but was surrounded with open rice fields several thousand meters long. Sgt. Hines picked a position on the trail that gave him visibility with about 100 meters to his front and wooded on his right and left flanks.
he put your brother and sgt. wingo at the front of the ambush. they would trigger the bush if any came into the kill zone. we were on a 50% sleep rotation. half the men would try to rest and half would lookout across the kill zone.
early in the night about 10 o'clock, I heard a burst of automatic fire from an AK47. a few tracer rounds lit up the dark sky. I can still see those rounds climbing into the sky. silence ensued for several minutes. finally a radio message from Hines said that brockman was hit and he needed the medic ASAP. the medic was with me in my ambush sight , he and I took off trying to get to the other site. it took several minutes to get there and when we arrived your brother had already expired. we worked on him for quite a long time but the loss of blood was just too great to overcome. there was nothing we could do. I carried his body on my back for about 1000 meters to the company headquarters group hoping that another medic could do something for him. they too tried but couldn't save him.

---

I don't post this for pity or to have anyone say what a loss. I post it to demonstrate the true costs associated with an action to pursue Democracy and Liberty.

While we can advocate either position in this debate, we all must realize that talk is cheap.

It will be those who fight who will bear the burden.

I may exercise my Rights to oppose the action, but I will absolutely support those who actually have to take action.”

“That's food for thought, chili, thanks for sharing that.”

“"A principle familiar to propagandists is that the doctrine to be instilled in the target audience should not be articulated: that would only expose them to reflection, inquiry, and, very likely, ridicule. The proper procedure is to drill them home by constantly presupposing them, so that they become the very condition for discourse."
 Noam Chomsky


As reported in salon: "the Princeton Survey Research Associates polled more than 1,200 Americans on behalf of the Knight Ridder newspaper chain. They asked a very simple question: "To the best of your knowledge, how many of the September 11 hijackers were Iraqi citizens?"

Forty-four percent of Americans believe that most or some of the hijackers were Iraqi; another 6 percent believe that one of the hijackers was a citizen of that most notorious node in the axis of evil."”

“As reported in salon: the Princeton Survey Research Associates polled more than 1,200 Americans on behalf of the Knight Ridder newspaper chain. They asked a very simple question: "To the best of your knowledge, how many of the September 11 hijackers were Iraqi citizens?"

Forty-four percent of Americans believe that most or some of the hijackers were Iraqi; another 6 percent believe that one of the hijackers was a citizen of that most notorious node in the axis of evil.”

“I believe the best way to support those who go to fight is never to forget, nor to allow apathy to keep you from voicing dissent in the face of that with which you disagree.

I know it made me feel good to know that there were people protesting at home. It also made me feel good to have those same people welcome me back.

I believe the UN has a problem. The UN should act to enforce its resolutions.

The link to al-qaeda is weak.”

“That's really heavy, Chili. Thanks for sharing.”

“it will be over in 2 weeks....”

“good post chilli, thanks.”

“Exactly, Chili. We must always keep the soldiers foremost in our thoughts.”

“Saddam did gas his own people

Saddam's regime cooperates with terrorist groups”

“Mutt, that is a great editorial cartoon!”

“I'd like to pass along an e-mail I received this morning for your comment.
You all seem to be much more knowledgeable and better at researching this stuff than I.

I'm just curious...


"Anyone remember this??

It was 1987! At a lecture the other day they were playing an old news
video of Lt.Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings
during the Reagan Administration.

There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third degree, but
what he said was stunning!

He was being drilled by a senator; "Did you not recently spend close to
$60,000 for a home security system?"

Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir."

The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience, "Isn't
that just a little excessive?"

"No, sir," continued Ollie.

"No? And why not?" the senator asked.

"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, sir."

"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.

"By a terrorist, sir" Ollie answered.

"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"

"His name is Osama bin Laden, sir" Ollie replied.

At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but couldn't pronounce
it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A couple of people
laughed at the attempt. Then the senator continued. Why are you so afraid
of this man?" the senator asked.

"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive that I know of", Ollie
answered.

"And what do you recommend we do about him?" asked the senator.

"Well, sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be
formed to eliminate him and his men from the face of the earth."

The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was shown
of the clip.


By the way, that senator was Al Gore

Also:

Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The
Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement
with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called
"political prisoners."

However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands, The
American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State,
Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released.

Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an
airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by
many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were
first identified. It was censored in the US from all later reports.

If you agree that the American public must be made aware of this fact,
pass this on."”

“Very interesting, Le S. It is true about Osama. The U.S. supported him and his factions in the 80's.”

“Bull

and

#&%!$”

“Violin beat me to it.”

“Sorry Kleetn.”

“DOH!”

“But, Osama was a 'freedom fighter' that was U.S. sponsored, Correct?”

“So was Saddam, treebeard.”

“True dat, V”

“So, why the hell do we always back the wwrong people? (Rhetorical question)”