The Backside

“My new cold-weather sleeping bag just arrived from Gear 4 Life (gear4life.com), an outlet for The Backside, and I have to say I am impressed. The model is the Black Goose. Fill is 2 lbs. of 750 fill-power prime goose down, total weight 3.1 lbs., shell and liner are made of their proprietary Diamond Tech ripstop nylon. The bag is rated to -5 degrees, but I expect that it will keep me warm well below that figure should I ever be crazy enough to put myself in that situation. The substantial hood fits around your head and you can snug it up with a draw cord and the draft tube is very substantial. The shoulder girth is 70", which is a real plus for me. The bag is a little long at 94" but I can live with that. This is a very well-made bag and I would recommend it to anyone who is looking for a high-quality cold-weather bag. The sale price on this bag was $152.00 and it compares favorably with bags in the $300/$400 range made by the major manufacturers.
Now, if we would only get some more single-digit weather so I could test it properly...”

“Errrr, uh... how's the zipper on that bag?”

“Oh yeah, one more thing. With the free compression bag I received, the sleeping bag compresses to 8" X 13".”

“Artex is now a zipper expert. Consult him for all your zipper needs. Ya want big zippers? Little bitty zippers? Nylon zippers? Call Artex and let him fill your zipper needs.”

“Artie, the zipper is the YYK self-locking zipper and is snag-resistant (actually, I'd say snag-proof).”

“Geo, I don't think I want to know how he came by that distinction, lOL!!!!”

“I wish they had a deal that good on their 20F bag...”

“He can tell it better than me. He was there; I wasn't.”

“Bit, the TNF Blue Kazoo is a GREAT 20 degree bag and you should be able to find one for around $120.00.”

“Good Golly! They have a -50F bag for $300 there!

It's too bad I can't imagine ever needing it...”

“You would have thought this was a gear thread?”

“Yah I should look around. I was thinking of getting the Campmor 20F, because I've been so satisfied with my 0F, but Nowslimmer has the Campmor 20F and complained of being cold the night we were at Blue Mountain.”

“Snagproof zipper, cool.. thanks Father Goose.

In case you didn't see the thread, I had a run-in with a now discontinued REI bag that didn't have a snagproof zipper. It got ugly. They refunded my money and I'm in the market for a new bag. I'll probably pick one up at Campmor this evening though, since it's right near my house and I get 10% off there.”

“lol StoveStomper...we should start a thread called "T!ts and Ass" and talk about nothing but gear on it...”

“Bit - Now THAT thread would stay on the title topic.

Sleeping bag ratings vary so much. I think WM bags are close to true ratings. I am a very very cold sleeper and I stay warm to within 6-7 degree of the rating. Can't say the same for my "20 degree" REI bag. I'll call it more a 30 degree bag.”

“Zippers is about gear. See Artex's post.”

“the draft tube that is.....”

“REI has the Blue Kazoo on sale right now for $120. Left zip only though...”

“Father Goose,

I have done some analysis on various bags and use total volume as a measure of bag warmth.

To get the fill weight of a bag you need the weight of the shell, liner, baffles, zip, draw cords (hood) etc. On pretty much all bags where specs are available this comes to about 30oz.

Your specs state total weight is 49.6oz. With 32oz of fill there is only 17.6oz for the shell or a little over 1/2 the norm for sleeping bags or the fill weight is lower than 32oz.

Big difference as 32oz of 750 gives a total volume of 24,000cu in. which is about correct for -5F (0F = 20,000 and -20F = 30,000) but if the shell is normal you only have 14,700 cu in., equivalent to the Marmot Arguille a mild winter/early spring/late fall bag. Or Bloody cold in a NE winter.

The bags I used for analysis are MH King Tut, Marmot Col, TNF Maxwell Demon, REI Down Time -20, Kelty Arete, Marmot Arguille, and EMS Down Under +25F. The results are consistant with fill weight, total weight and temp rating.”

“hmmm...I've never heard of these bags. It will be interesting to read your gear review later...black goose down, eh?

Arty - Western Mountaineering zips are virtually snag-proof.

Manookie, I don't really know whadafuh you said, but you da man! ;p
(seriously though, that's some serious research!)”

“Hey Manuka - my marmot helium only weighs 32oz, and is rated at 15F. If there is 21oz of 800 down in it, that just leaves 11oz for the shell.”

“Big Manuka, I suppose you could run your analysis by the guys at thebackside.com and see what they have to say. This is not a fly-by-night outfit, so I doubt that they would misrepresent their product. I'd be interested in their response.”

“Garfum,

Lightweight Backpacker (spring 2002) gives the Helium 19oz of fill leaving 13oz for the shell which is a special fabric "ParaLight N-80/20 DWR, 1.2 oz, 30 denier, Originally for paragliding."
BTW 19oz gives 15,200 cu in of loft.

Father Goose,

I am not big, Manuka is a small shrub that grows in New Zealand with tiny white flowers, also known as Ti-Tree.

The Backside site is fairly consistent with specs showing that shells are 18 oz across their range of sleeping bags and also include a description of the material they use for shells.

I guess manufacturers reached the limits with down loft and are looking at the shell for product improvement.
The analysis I did was Sept 2001 and we have had 2 winter seasons of product development since then.

I was not suggesting that the manufacturer misrepresented their product. There is no industry standard on temperature rating, and what feels warm for some people is cold for others. I was questioning what appeared to be a very light shell. How was this weight saving accomplished ? New material seems to be the answer, but without checking other answers could be fewer baffles allowing fill to shift and cold spots, or thinner material which could mean a fragile shell and short life.

Ford is not a fly-by-night outfit either but they did market the Pinto some of which did explode and incinerate the vehicle occupants, and the Audi 5000 did have user complaints which the company refused to consider.

Caveat Emptor”

“My 20° bag should be rated at 40°, I feel. At that point I have to start layering. BUT, THE ZIPPERS WORK GREAT! I thought of ARTEX everytime I moved either of the zippers during the last five nights down in Everglades NP. The nearby people must have thought I was nuts_____all alone and laughing like that in my tent. (I wondered how he is when zippering his pants! Gee folks, I'm sorry things are showing, but the zipper broke. Guess I'll have to send these pants back to REI.)
LOL”

“Point well taken, Manuka. I suppose only time will tell. The shell and liner fabric seems sturdy enough and the bag is uncomfortably warm at the current temp of 38 degrees with about a 10mph breeze. I may have to go north to properly test it. Maybe it will be cold at Big South Fork next weekend. :-)”

“I got two Backside Down Under 0 degree bags when Wyoming River Raiders were practically giving 'em away a year or so ago. The only problem I found with 'em was that the zipper on the lh bag was 3" longer than the zipper on the rh bag, so they don't lock at the top, and the little fabric gusset at the bottom of the zippers lets in a little air when they're mated. But they're so warm, it's not a big deal. Awesome hoods; no side baffle, so you can shift down as needed; a little velcro pocket in the chest baffle that WRR didn't even know was there. Material seems very durable, and stitching has held up well through lots of use. They do run long, but since I bought 'em for cold NE winters, it gives me plenty of room to sleep with water, boots, and clothes.

Good bags and they always seem to be on sale somewhere.”

“Yeah, I forgot to mention that little pocket in the chest baffle. What the hell is that for, anyhoo???”

“I put my headlamp in it. Could use it for wallet, keys, or condoms, I s'pose.”

“candy too.”

“hey bit, with the price being so good on the -5° bag vs the 20° bag why don't you just buy it then you won't have to worry about those temps less than 20°

FG, I also hope you post a report on this bag.

Are they even in the current gear guide?”

“I already have a bag in that range or I would...Looking specifically for one for warmer temps that's lighter.

I have been carrying my 0F bag a lot lately because it's lighter and packs smaller than my synthetic 20F bag. It's not really a problem, but on the AT trip, some nights I was half out of the bag because I was so warm.”

“The bags I make usually have from 10 -15 ozs.in shell,liner baffles,zippers,cords and thread.but they are made of 1.10z. ripstop with 1.10z. for baffles and #5 coil zips 48"long.this construction is not for people who use their bag to carry fire wood or as a sled in snow,but hangs in there with some attention.With 725pf. down and the above materials an average 25*F cost about $90.00 .Remember down really last for years and can be re-used as wear and better materials appear.”

“"...on the AT trip, some nights I was half out of the bag because I was so warm."
bitpusher
10:31:53 AM
02/06/03

Most nights, he was half IN the bag, LOL.”

“lol...wait, I drank up all my liquor before that trip!”

“Oh yeah, Ewker, the Black Goose is a current model. List price is about $300.00”

“At least you didn't smoke the whole bag.”

“How many times is a zipper zipped before it can be called snag-proof? And who does this testing???”

“I got a zero degree bag but it didnt' keep me warm in the zero degree weather I slept in... so I put a 25degree campmor bag inside of it...it was large enough to put that inside and move around some..so that was the up side...rather large though.”

“THe temp rating means it will keep you alive at that temp., not comfortable. Found that one out the hard way myself.”

“amazing what you can survive tho...”

“Yah!$400.00 for a real 0*F all the re of these cheapies are just heavy 15*F.”

“FG, have you used this bag yet and how did it hold up to the temp rating.”

“looks like gear4life.com has shut down”

“Hey, Ewker. I haven't tried the bag below 16 degrees in a howling wind while hanging in my hammock, but everything other than my butt was toasty warm. I was experimenting with a reflector pad at the time and didn't have a proper (read ThermARest) pad below me. You can reach the distributors at thebackside.com. You gonna come to Firey Gizzard Halloween???”

“It looks like they are now Newell International, still based out of SLC, Utah. Reach them at newellinternational.com.”

“FG, I noticed that trip has been changed to Virgin Falls..did you see that?”

“The virgin didn't fall, she was tripped, and besides, she's not a virgin anymore.”

“Yeah, I just exchanged e-mails with Katherine. You goin'???

Geobeast, leave the virgins alone, you're scarin' 'em...”

“It all depends on what happens this weekend. I have a trip planned but if it falls thru it may happen next weekend. I will know more later on this week.”