Peace March

“BTW, my little town in the middle of the midwest will likely have over 500 people at their rally.

Favorite sign at the last rally:
WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB?”

“alot of good questions have been asked.
I feel that I am very american. I do what ever i can to make peace. I do it with the school yard bullies that beat up my son at least once a month. I do not response to bullies!!
I believe in my heart that there has to be a way to prevent war.
i will be the first one that waves that flag while watching our men and woman fly of to what ever country Bush has a hard on for this week.
Bushes daddy started this and bush jr wants to finish it. i may not have all the facts and i NEVER will claim to KNOW it ALL.
I hate war and anything that has to do with it. It makes me sick in my stomach. I remeber the day we went to war in Kawait(sp) it was on my A-day. we were at dinner when the news broke. It broke my heart. I cried.
My home is and will always be open to anyone and everyone that needs anything. I would not turn my enemy (yes even my ex-husband would find help with me)
away.
this is who i am. i am not a commie or a treehugger just a scared american. fearing the worst for my children.
I hear what you are asking about the brave persons that have gone to nam. but look what has happened to them. I see it everyday. vets with only 1 arm 1 leg in the streets begging. remeber i live in the city. i see more homeless then alot of middle america. I guess its a price to pay to have freedom.

we are living in HIGH TERROR but when will it end? is it going to end?
NO never. we must fight for our right to be free!!!

I just wish there was a way other then WAR.

that is all I have to say on the subject.”

“Dirty makes the same point I made on the Government Warnings thread yesterday. The MAIN thing here is that (as proven over and over through out history) WAR leads to more WAR. I'll repeat myself, "Fighting fire w/ fire leads to everyone missing an eye in their blind rage." And I do believe in peace at all costs.”

“I bet Marvin Gardens would have some insightful analogies as to how this all pertains to secret contact with alien races afar.”

“lmao, Artex! Bet he would...”

“Bacpac's emotion of choice is anger. He also likes the FEELING of superiority. When will he get his own right-wing blab show on the radio?"
Dunadan
10:26:39 AM
02/14/03

How do you reach this conclusion? Do you enjoy feeling inferior?”

“"The eyes of the world being thus on our Country, it is put the
more on its good behavior, and under the greater obligation also,
to do justice to the Tree of Liberty by an exhibition of the fine
fruits we gather from it." --James Madison




peace at all costs.....makes no scence”

“Out of all the superpowers of the world throughout history, none has demostrated the constraint of the United States when it comes to using that power. But some problems have to be dealt with in a more direct method.”

“Weren't they expecting 100-150,000 people at the NYC demonstration? I just heard on the news that they're estimating the crowd at a million.”

“we are tha worrrrrllllllddd ......we are tha childrennnnnnn[swaying, holding up candle]”

“anyone ever notice the right wing spends more time bad-mouthing the opposition than actually talking about the issues?”

“There is a time for talk and a time for action. It's time to turn that desert into a sheet of glass in the name of peace.

And if North Korea keeps it up it will be time to turn that country into a desert!”

“ok stratdewd, hold on to your chair...... i am leaning slightly towards being in favor of war on iraq. does that surprise you? from our last discussion, i bet you thought i was opposed to the war. no. i am suspicious of the administrations motives and critical of the way they try to get the american public to support them. that said, i dont like the way hussein has been uncooperative regarding weapons inspections. if the draft was still in effect, i dont know that i would be favoring war as much, tho. as far as the peace march goes, i think alot of ppl are missing the point about why it was disallowed. basically, it would be too disruptive by tying up the city's streets and human resources. HOWEVER, there is an atmosphere in this country that if youre anti-war, your anti-american and your views should not be heard (see the "dissent is offensive" thread), and thats not right either. this thread was started by someone innocently asking who was going to the march, and it almost instantly deteriorated into attacks from the right.

there are highly intelligent ppl on both sides, and there are dithering idiots on both sides. so enough with the personal attacks, ok? god im so #&%!$ing sick of it, and yes, im guilty, im pointing the finger at myself, too. if we're being honest, 99 percent of us are not qualified to even have this discussion, its all opinion. i will be the first to say im for using force against iraq, but what the hell do i know? i do not believe he is an immediate threat, but we should nip it in the bud. but we should take care of korea first. but what the hell do i know?

of course, thats just my opinion, i could be wrong”

“anyone ever notice the right wing spends more time bad-mouthing the opposition than actually talking about the issues?

This is true of both ends of the political continuum.

f we're being honest, 99 percent of us are not qualified to even have this discussion, its all opinion

We're all qualified to discuss this. It's our duty as citizens to be as informed and vocal about these things as possible. And it's not all just opinion. Logical arguments can be made pro and con. The problem is, the pro and con perspective are not diametrically opposed in logic, and thus we see both sides making substantive arguments without invalidating the other's premise.”

“

this thread was started by someone innocently asking who was going to the march,

Bull! This thread was started by someone promoting that any of us going to the march should wear TT'T-shirts and saying "That way we can rally together!!" This implied that she was going! Then, in the next post, she turned around and said that she can't go! This is one of the ways of agitators. Get the people to do something and then stay out of it yourself. Thus the instigator remains aloof, while the participants risk trouble. I don't consider this to be "someone innocently asking."

and it almost instantly deteriorated into attacks from the right.

I assume you are referring to my post ofHow 'bout a WAR MARCH? People seemed to miss my point at that stage. I used a play on the words and was suggesting that equal rights should support a march on the opposite side. But, more important, the point missed was that any "Peace March" would constitute a "War March" agains the NY City Officials, who had banned the Peace March at this date (for reasons expressed in article at the link I provided.(For cut and paste, since the link software had changed. Matt has restored it.) The instigator of this thread was promoting something illegal! My attack was neither from the right, left or center. I simply pointed out(in an agitating way) what I understood to be the current situation regarding the march.

there are highly intelligent ppl on both sides, and there are dithering idiots on both sides. so enough with the personal attacks, ok?

Sorry, 2scoops, I believe you are talking with tongue-in-cheek, since I feel that you just attacked me. (BTW, I enjoyed meeting you at Ocala NF.)
<>blockquote>if we're being honest, 99 percent of us are not qualified to even have this discussion, its all opinion. i will be the first to say im for using force against iraq, but what the hell do i know? i do not believe he is an immediate threat,

For you and those who do not know, why not put some belief and trust in your government. For almost all of my working years, I was envolved with security and with weapons systems of all types. Although I do not know the details of this situation, I believe our administration's statements with regard to the dangers. And the longer we wait, the more people I expect to perish before the threats are terminated as much as possible. The administration has stated reasons for not revealing all that they know! (I know I would not have enjoyed being sold-out (exposed), when I was envolved in counter intelligence.)

Instead of many rallys against our government's actions and decisions, we need to give them more support.

Paul”

“again.”

“I don't march, I Vote”

“sorry nowslimmer, i didnt mean to implicate you. my "attacks from the right" were not aimed at you, as you were not making a personal attack. as a matter of fact, i echoed one of your assertions concerning why the march was banned”

“I wonder how much the vote will swing back, after all the peace marchers get back home and enter their votes.”

“and yes nowslimmer, i did get your tongue in cheek approach. but i think you were too deadpan for others to get it.

and mutt, i liked all of what you said until you started yellin at me. and im sure youre going to cut and paste this to use against me. why do i keep entering these damn threads?”

“Right, I saw it. It's just that I was the first to post what appeared to be an offense.

You just provided an excuse for me to vent about the way this thread was started.”

“i guess i was really annoyed at how bacpac immmediately started making personal attacks.”

“bacpac annoyes everyone! Get used to it.”

“cant go but sure wish I could. There is a large group in my area that are going. I will light a candle at home."
mapleleaf
03:21:08 PM
02/13/03

NS, please do me a fav, dont include me into your insane thinking and dont pertend to know what the hell im thinking.
i asked a simple question THAT WAS ALL
I will not be blamed for any of this bullsyhit here or on backpacker.com.
every is allowed to think what they want. I will NOT SAY IM SORRY for starting this thread anymore.
so do me a fav and back off of me.


"the way this thread was started"

please do tell me what my motives were. since you claim to be able to read my mind and know why I really started this thread.
go ahead Im listening

mapleleaf”

“So, today the world's citizens spoke, eh.”

“A couple of million represent several billion? I think NOT.”

“MATT!

Please delete this thread. its not worth it anymore.”

“Have a nice evening, mapleleaf.”

“ill be glad when the war(s) are over so we can go back to arguing over regular controversial topics like religion, gun control, and is bert evil?”

“screw this. im going to go look at naked girls.”

“screw this. im going to go look at naked girls.”

“Ns, thats it?
why would you say what you did and then not even bother to answer my questions.

sorry NS thats not right.

mapleleaf”

“NEW YORK (CNN) -- Huge crowds of antiwar protesters jammed into downtown New York on Saturday as demonstrators in dozens of U.S. cities joined massive crowds worldwide in voicing opposition to war with Iraq.

An estimated 200,000 demonstrators converged near the United Nations to protest the possible war -- just one of the more than 600 antiwar rallies around the globe Saturday.



gee and what was I thinking?

Mapleleaf”

“Police in London, England, said turnout Saturday was 750,000, the largest demonstration ever in the British capital. The organizers put the figure at 2 million. In Germany, 500,000 protested, and 300,000 gathered in 60 towns and cities across France”

“Why don't you re-read the thread.

Do I sound angry?

Do the people responding to me sound angry?

Have a nice day.”

“no, you sound inflammatory”

“How so?”

“So in total across the world...there's like 10 million people (just a guess) who's against a war on Iraq. That leaves 4.9 billion people who thinks it's OK to start a war, or couldn't care less.”

“How did the other posters sound?”

“THE BAND PLAYED WALTZING MATILDA


Words and Music: Eric Bogle.
Copyright: Larrikin Music, Sydney, Australia


When I was a young man I carried my pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback
I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in nineteen fifteen the country said, "Son,
It's time to stop rambling, there's work to be done."
And they gave me a tin hat and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war.

And the band played Waltzing Matilda
As our ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, flag-waving and tears
We sailed off to Gallipoli.

And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water.
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk he was waiting, he primed himself well,
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell,
And in five minutes flat he'd blown us all to hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

But the band played Waltzing Matilda,
As we stopped to bury our slain.
We buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.

Now those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive,
But around me, the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead.
Never knew there was worse things than dying.

For I'll go no more Waltzing Matilda
All around the green bush far and free,
To hump tent and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more Waltzing Matilda for me.

So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind and insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship pulled into Circular Quay
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve and to mourn and to pity.

But the band played Waltzing Matilda
As they carried us down the gangway.
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.

And so now every April I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory.
And the old men marched slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war,
And the young people ask,"What are they marching for?",
And I ask meself the same question.

But the band plays Waltzing Matilda,
And the old men still answer the call.
But as year follows year, more old men disappear,
Someday no one will march there at all.

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda,
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me ?
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong,
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me ?”

“That sounds inflammatory to me.

Are you angry?”

“I'm curious to hear what supporters of W have to say about this:

1) Why is W so hard on Iraq and so SOFT on Saudi Arabia?

Bin Laden et al. are Saudi, NOT Iraqi. The Saudis hold telethons to raise money for terrorists. Saudi Islamic clerics are some of the most vocal in their public condemnation of America. It was a team of Saudis, supported by Saudi money, that drove a couple of stolen planes into the WTC towers.

And yet, "the Saudis are our friends."

Oil in Saudi Arabia is privately held, and sold with the "help" of companies like Exxon and Mobil. Meanwhile, Hussein nationalized the oil fields of Iraq, so that all profits in the sale of Iraqi oil goes to Hussein, his buddies, and the Iraqi government (in that order) - Exxon et al. don't get a cent from Iraqi oil.

W's family got its money from oil.

Does anyone REALLY believe that W has any motive other than to replace Hussein with a leader that will "play ball" with the oil companies?

2) If the war in Iraq is about "weapons of mass destruction," why aren't we going after Israel or North Korea as well?

Both of these countries are known to have "illegal" nuclear weapons (whatever those are). I can see how North Korea gets its "safe conduct" pass - China. Disney and McDonald's can't risk losing a market of 1.2 billion customers. Plus, Nike needs to maintain good relations with a workforce that makes shoes for 50 cents that Nike gets to sell for $100.

Oh, and North Korea doesn't have any oil.

But how does Israel get to have its own nuclear force? Is it because the US gave it to them?

3) Whatever happened to "Kenny Boy?"

4) Why has W shifted his attention away from the REAL threat - Al Qaeda - to Iraq? And if Al Qaeda ISN'T considered a threat, why do we continue to get "Code Orange" warnings?

Just curious...”

“Liberals don't base their decisions on reason. The make decisions based upon emotion."
bacpac
05:16:34 PM
02/13/03

this was a fairly reasonable discussion about a specific issue until you polarized it. now because of you, its left vs right again.

mutt said it best:

"Your assertion that liberals base their opinions on emotion while conservatives base theirs on logic is demonstrably false on both points. So it's really just a canned talking point, repeated ad naseum on message boards, and it's very telling of your capability to debate anything of merit on this subject."”

“I posted supporting evidence of my claim. No one refuted it.

Mutt posted his opinion did not offer any evidence to support it.”

“I'm curious to hear what supporters of W have to say about this:

1) Why is W so hard on Iraq and so SOFT on Saudi Arabia?

Bin Laden et al. are Saudi, NOT Iraqi. The Saudis hold telethons to raise money for terrorists. Saudi Islamic clerics are some of the most vocal in their public condemnation of America. It was a team of Saudis, supported by Saudi money, that drove a couple of stolen planes into the WTC towers.

And yet, "the Saudis are our friends."

The Iraqi’s shoot at American Pilots. The Saudi’s do not. It is more complicated than that and I am not enough of a global political wizard to know all the details, but it is a significant difference.

I don’t know how you managed to follow the money trail, but I think you need to call the CIA. There is an ongoing campaign for money to support terrorism from all over the globe. Money from the United States is being used to wage terror.

Oil in Saudi Arabia is privately held, and sold with the "help" of companies like Exxon and Mobil. Meanwhile, Hussein nationalized the oil fields of Iraq, so that all profits in the sale of Iraqi oil goes to Hussein, his buddies, and the Iraqi government (in that order) - Exxon et al. don't get a cent from Iraqi oil.

W's family got its money from oil.

Does anyone REALLY believe that W has any motive other than to replace Hussein with a leader that will "play ball" with the oil companies?

If you want oil you can buy it. Buying and selling oil is what oil companies do. Why did Texaco sell all of its retail operations to Shell? Why are Texas oil pumps only running three days a week? I don’t know. Do you?

Why would we invest $200 billion in a war for oil that you can already buy and sell for a large profit?

2) If the war in Iraq is about "weapons of mass destruction," why aren't we going after Israel or North Korea as well?

Both of these countries are known to have "illegal" nuclear weapons (whatever those are). I can see how North Korea gets its "safe conduct" pass - China. Disney and McDonald's can't risk losing a market of 1.2 billion customers. Plus, Nike needs to maintain good relations with a workforce that makes shoes for 50 cents that Nike gets to sell for $100.

Oh, and North Korea doesn't have any oil.

But how does Israel get to have its own nuclear force? Is it because the US gave it to them?

Israel is our ally. I think even you can figure that out. North Korea is a diplomatic war. China and Russia have more at stake that we do. Let them handle it.

3) Whatever happened to "Kenny Boy?"

Good Question. I sent emails asking my Senators the same question. I suggest you and every other American do the same.

4) Why has W shifted his attention away from the REAL threat - Al Qaeda - to Iraq? And if Al Qaeda ISN'T considered a threat, why do we continue to get "Code Orange" warnings?

The world is not a vacuum. When someone spends a couple million dollars the government knows about it. Even in our FREE society the government has means to track large monetary transactions. Do you think dictatorships are more slack in following money? They own the banks!!! When a country decides to hide the transactions they become guilty as well.

Just curious..."
Forrest
06:36:43 PM
02/15/03

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this.”

“I took pictures at a peace rally today. There have been a series of them in the small towns around here, yes, the quiet Midwest.

It was sure interesting. An older man, the staunchest of staunch Republicans, was there. So I interviewed him at a potluck meal held after the march (sharing in Middle Eastern food).

He said he was not protesting the war. He noted he carried no sign but did carry the American flag. He had served in WWII, as did his brother. He was a former State of MN representaive at the statehouse, as well as a former state agriculture commissioner.

He said he hoped there would be no war, an unjust war that the American public did not stand behind. He had three sons who served, one of them in Vietnam, and he had seen what it did to him. His son will still not talk about it.

If war does come, he will support the troops and the president 100%. However, he said he would pray for peace now.”