Peace March

“Newgirl, I never meant to imply taking the view that you have is stupid or cowardly. It is however unrealistic...Can I email you regarding Jesus and Ghandi. I dont want to open up a Pandoras box with another "Jesus thread".”

“We, America, as a whole have a foreign policy of giving way too much money to lazy countries, and ask to be recompenced in some way. The lazy country doesn't want to give us anything and berates us thru the media. Meanwhile our ambassadors tell us we can not end the aid as millions will die and it will be our fault.

Our military incursions are to free the oppressed, our citizens in Grenada, Kuwait, hunt down our Sept. 11th attackers, etc....

In WWII we stayed as far out of it as we could, until December 7th.

What I am saying, is we Americans, as a whole, do not want war, hate it, despise it, will even ignore in other areas of the world to avoid going there. But when we are called to war, our enemy had better get prepared. Our military is an awesome bohemoth that will roll over on them in an unfair fight (if our politicians let our well trained military do their job). It truly is an unfair fight, but we are trying to attain our goals with a minimum of casulties.

Had we acted earlier, in some kind of pre-emptive raid on Bin Laden, can you just imagine the cries of the Peace-nics: "Why are you bothering him, he hasn't done anything to us". Why do we always have to take the first shot, and lose thousands of innocent civilians? If we know things about our prospective enemy, we ought to act on that knowledge.

Just for the record, Saddam has been targeting and firing upon our patrol planes regularly, after signing a surrender and agreement to disarm. This signing occurred in lieu of our forces marching all over Bahgdad and forcing him out. Strange, but in WWII, we did not do this with Hitler or Mussolini. We did allow the emporor to remain in japan, but we occupied their country, proved their non agression and rebuilt them.

Listen folks, History shows America to be an honorable country in world affairs. I don't want war any more than any one else, but I don't want a sucker punch from this Saddam guy years down the road either. We took one from Bin Laden, and there was no need for it. We should have permanately removed Saddam before, and we ought to now.”

“Had we acted earlier, in some kind of pre-emptive raid on Bin Laden, can you just imagine the cries of the Peace-nics: "Why are you bothering him, he hasn't done anything to us".

Sorry, Uphill. Read what you said and respect your viewpoint, but the above statement is going over the line. You overstep your bounds by assuming this to be true of everybody that sees a different solution to Iraq than yourself. Believe it or not, there are intelligent people on the other side of the fence that wouldn't make such an unintelligent statement.”

“Treebeard, You may not believe this, But I am a bit of a peace-nic myself. I would be asking why are we bothering him, but I would also be listening to the answer. I do believe in peace, but I also believe in peace through superior fire power. I do not believe we would be left alone if we had no weapons, though, curiously, Switzerland is an enigma to me. Hitler crushed all those other countries, but not Switzerland-why? Some of those countries also offered no defence. What about the millions of jews and others marched off to the camps without offering resistance. While I admire pacifism, and wish all could live like that, I recognize that it is unrealistic.

You see, I tend to believe our intelligence is actually capable, and that they do a good job.

I am sorry if the term peace-nics got you all wrankled, I meant offence. Yes, I did make a blanket assumption.

History (recent and not so recent) does show that we always take the first sucker punch. So now, I put it to you: What would you, who (I'm assuming again) sees a different solution to Iraq than mine, suggest? A realistic answer please, recognizing that he regularly fires on our patrol planes, violates the surrender agreement, etc...”

“"Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle...Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time....the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."

Patton”

“Uphill, I appreciate your response and would like to address your questions. I was active on this thread more towards its inception, but have eased off as I think emotions started to get in the way of the good, open, intelligent forum for discussion. Last week, (perhaps you didn't see it) I editorialized and summed up my feelings on the matter. I started with an answer to a question that Tilt posed and then went on to explain my take. I am going to reprint it below and let me know if I didn't answer your question, ok?



"Tilt, I honestly think that even if 9-11 never happened, this Iraq thing would still occur. The first thing I thought when W. eked his way into the White House was that he would have us in a war within two years. I figured that cleaning up the lingering mess Daddy left in the Gulf War would be the logical place for it to happen. I mean, just look at the cast of characters here. It's like a repeat performance. You have Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, representative of the Bush family, etc. But, enough of that, right or wrong, I was just expressing my gut feeling. We'll never know whether or not that would have been true anyway.

Apeman, I respect what you say, and despite the fact that you seem to think I am just a tree huggin dizzy man, I am aware of more reality than you give me credit for, But, think what you want. I am totally resigned to the fact that we are going to war and nothing will stop it. It just burns me up, however. Reason is that I fel we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. It is not about WMD, simply because Saddam is not the most dangerous threat on the globe when it comes to that. I would say the threat from North Korea is way more urgent than Saddam, but I don't see our macho, preppie boy prez flexing his muscles on that issue. It's too sensitive. Iraq, however, he can do that with. Saddam is under a microscope and can't wipe his butt without the world scrutinizing every move he makes. I still don't believe that he has nuclear weapons and he couldn't launch his chemical arsenal over here with what he has if he tried. So, that is (in a nutshell) why I don't believe the WMD propaganda. This administration is doing a good job of manipulating the media and putting the fear of God into people, though. I believe it's more about oil and such. You may disagree with me, folks, but this is what I believe. Being that he is watched this closely leads me to believe that, under the present circumstances, it would be very difficult for him to build his arsenal at the rate some folks have suggested. So, giving the U.N. the time it had requested (while the U.S. harassed the shyt out of them) wasn't such an outlandish plan. Don't get me wrong, if someone could prove that they had anything to do with 9-11, I would be the first one to suggest that we blow his balls off and make oil soup out of that country. So, I am not a 'peace at all cost' citizen. I still take 9-11 seriously. My wife, daugther and myself were day and night volunteer workers at a supply outpost within 1/2 mile of ground zero (only because that was as close as the authorities would let us go) and took our work there very seriously. I smelled the vile odor of that place. I was stricken with 'World Trade Center' cough for almost 5 months following it. I take this very seriously. I just feel our government has their own agenda in Iraq and haven't exactly been forthright with us. To sum it up, I just don't want to have to worry about the potential backlash (suicide bombers, etc.) over here in the states over oil and such.

On a side note, I would like to say that i have enjoyed the political discussions with you folks that still believe in the First Amendment. By that, I mean the open minded people that, whether they agree or disagree with me, are willing to listen and debate without resorting to the 'my way or the highway' attitude. Good, intelligent open forum is very healthy, but when some demented, so-called patriot or religious zealot tries to nail their soles on my shoes, that's where I draw the line. Anywhoo, it seems to me that we are lapsing back into something I experienced years ago in this country. I was a peacenik back then (I guess old habits die hard) and I used to attend most of the New York City peace demonstrations. I was there when the hardhats charged down Wall Street and clashed with the marchers and when Huey Newton and the Black Panthers incited a semi riot in Bryant Park. What I'm getting at though, is the divisiveness in this country that is going on now. It is becoming strangely reminiscent of what was happening to us back then. Frankly, I just hope that we are not embarking on the mistakes we made by getting involved in Vietnam. Unfortunately, this time the stakes are higher and more innocent people at home could likely be dragged the mud. Sorry to be so long winded and thanx to those that have the patience to hear me out."”

“War sucks but it is needed at times. Everyone wishes that we could all live in peace, but there will always be those who wish to take or destroy. I believe that there are people who are truely evil and need to be stopped. Saddam is one of those people. I dont know alot about all of these famous people who say great things, but I do know what I had to see over there.

I was stationed in Saudi just after the Gulf war. We did alot of things for the people who had been over there. The worst of these things I had to do was Body bag detail. Several of us were charged loading bodies of people who had starved to death or died of chemical poisoning. If you do not believe that Saddam possesses chemical agents, you had better think again. If you believe that he would not use them, you better think again.

How could we let someone like him in power? Its not a war between two countries, its between right and wrong. I know it can be a blurry line at times, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

As for the fear of sending our young men and women into war, yeah, it sucks. But we all joined of our own free will. Believe me, we did not join for the money (vote for more money for soldiers, I need more gear). Again, being stationed over there, I unfortunately had to see several of my fellow soldiers lose their lives. We swear an oath to defend our nation and protect liberty whenever and where ever. Do I want to go to war...no. But I do know that if I dont, several thousands, maybe even millions will lose their lives. These people maybe my friends or family. As for the people protesting, keep doing it if you feel in your heart that it is right. The right to do so is what it means to be American. I would still gladly protect your freedoms. I'm happy that you think of the soldiers. I'm happy that people are out there to make us think before we charge into battle.

I believe in the war against Saddam and terrorism. We have the strength and power to stand up to such evil. It is our responsibility to protect the world. Many think that its not. To that I say, if you saw someone being brutal beaten could you sit there and watch. I cant. I dont like quoting movies, but With great power comes great responsibilty.

Well thats my rant.”

“My hat's off to you, Dare. You are a person that knows what a true democracy is. You have the courage of your convictions and seem to respect those that may not see eye to eye with you. Glad to say I know you...”

“i've only read a few of the above post..almost 80% of the protestors aimed their marches against BUSH alone. This is strange, where are all the protestors against Osama, and Hussien. Last i heard these pple actually have killed several thousands of pple since 1979.

In the end do these pple who sit on their @$$es most of the time want to have something to tell their grandchildren about their glory days?...ohh go talk to your grandpa..he was a protestor back in the 00's!! Yea it's great we are able to assemble, but do you think the majorities of protestors voices are even heard..there are better channels to follow..even dumb redneck me knows that. How is it when protestors are singled out from the "mob" they become quiet and decline to comment. How is it Protestors who are asking us not to goto war for peace are fighting for police.

Visulize Whirled Peas, and Stop the Violins”

“Visulize Whirled Peas, and Stop the Violins"
OPIE
10:23:38 AM
02/18/03

BAN VIOLIN”

“The Foreign Minister of Turkey stated yesterday that American troops are welcome on their soil to open a northern front into Iraq... but the details of the 'aid package' need to be finalized (they're expecting a checque from us for $15 Billion).”

“Thanks Treebeard. Glad to know you too. I hope every keeps their ideas coming. If we dont exercise that freedom, we will lose it.”

“15 Billion is alot of money, but if it will enable us to end the war quickly and save the lives of soldiers.....spend it.”

“Just as a side note here, for what it's worth. My Dad was an Army Ranger in WWII. He was stationed in Foggia, Italy, Sardinia, Ireland, Morocco and spent over a year in the desert in Africa with the British Army. He was shot four times and God knows what favors he returned in that department. He bounced up and down the ranks from Private to Master Sergeant and back so many times, you'd think he was part yo-yo. He had more love for his country than any man I ever knew. Yet, (and at first this was difficult for him) throughout the Vietnam conflict, he was able to listen to both sides and exhibit compassion for those that disagreed with him. Towards the end of the sixties and into the early seventies, his stance on it softened extremely. Just to note that I have had some exposure in my life to someone who was about as knee deep in a war as you can get. So, I am not without compassion to our service men and women. I just have this skepticism about the truth behind why we are doing this (as stated in my post above).”

“treebeard, tell all the good people the truth as to why your father did the yo-yo thing in the Army.

(its a great story and this man was a HERO)”

“I think many people accept the idea that sometimes we "must" go to war, because we are taught to accept that idea. Did any of you ever have a teacher who taught that there is no "must," that there are always other alternatives? If you did, you were lucky. Again, I'm told that I'm naive and it's unrealistic. I don't remember the exact quote or who said it (I prolly shouldn't post it then, eh), but someone said that non-violence does not rely on the goodwill of the enemy. As Birch pointed out, often taking that higher road will bring out in others even more agression. Jesus, Ghandi, King, even Lennon, all died for trying to tell the world about this strange possibility of loving even the enemy, even as he attacks you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at a point, where if some evil man comes knocking at my door threatening to kill me or my child, that I will just back down to it. I don't think any of those great men I mentioned were teaching that either. War on a massive scale is a different thing entirely though. And peace keeping is hard f@#$ing work. It could take yrs. of talking and carefully sorting out the details to reach a true peace. On the other hand, it takes only seconds for innocent people (including the soldiers) to die.”

“Dad was a real character and had a strong will of his own. The reasons for his demotions and promotions varied. One of them waas when his brother (a bombadier) was shot down in enemy territory over Yugoslavia. When my father heard this, he set out against orders to find his brother. It took two months, but he finally did. Came back to some disciplinary action, but made it through.”

“Why do some people think that all people that go to Marches think that all they want is there faces on TV?

I find this kind of thinking very narrow minded.”

“according to newgirl, timmy will get rid of his bat if only we'll get rid of ours, FIRST. wink-wink."
dayhiker
05:39:38 PM
02/17/03

Guilty.


Let me first same I'm not bringing up this point to start a religious debate OR to use it as a case for war....disclaimer over.

Jesus wasn't completely about passive resistance. He wasn't necessarily about sittin in a corner singing Kum-ba-ya either. Ever read the money changer story?”

“Treebeard, I agree with you about the emotions getting in the way of good discussions. Obviously my second post was born out of emotion. I would have worded it a bit different, but I got a bit wrankled myself. That being said....

I try to keep away from emotional issues as they cause issues with me, but I still read them,(I'm intrigued) shorter posts mostly, and I don't often read the longer ones, as the points often seem capable of being made with less wordiness. I'm the guy who will read a newspaper or magazine full of short articles, but not a novel on any subject.

I felt that everyone on this thread needed the benefit of my wisdom on the issue (TIC), and this opinionated fellow spoke out.

Back to rational discussion: I guess I don't see your suggestion as to what to do with Saddam. You suggested "there are intelligent people on the other side of the fence that wouldn't make such an unintelligent statement." I would really like to hear what the intelligent people would say(about dealing with Saddam, not about attacking those who are taking some kind of action.).

BTW, the Saddam situation being Daddy's mess that never got cleaned up. I gotta say that I think Bush should have removed him when he had the chance, but let's not forget that Clinton was in charge for 8 years and pretty much let Saddam do whatever he wanted. This is Bush and Clintons mess, now GWB is trying to straighten it out. I hope he can, by the most peaceful method available.

So anyways.....”

“I understand what your saying newgirl and I wish that it someday the world will be that way. However, you said that you would not back down if someone came to your door. That is exactly whats happening now. Should we just sit back and allow our people to be killed by these terrorist? I appreciate the fact that you dont want anyone to die, but they already are. As for all of those famous people who died for great things, it was tragic that they had to die. Ask yourself this though, do you think they would have choose life knowing that their death would force the world to realize their message? I know it is off the topic, but just an interesting thought.”

“Interesting point Dare. Did you mean to say "Do you think they would have chosen life knowing that their death didn't force the world to realize their message?" I didn't read the post about famous folks, so I may be missing the point. I'll go back and read.

To further that point. If you were in charge of, say a war. Would you sacrifice 1000 soldiers to save 100,000 civilians. The answer is yes. Would you include yourself in the 1000?”

“Is there some sort of executive summary to this thread?”

“very good question dayhiker!!

That is something for everyone to think about. it is easy to sit here in a nice safe office yelling

"Im proud to be an American"
or "I Dont want War"

I know that if it were my husband or my child that was in the way of a bullet, I would jump in front of that bullet without giving a second thought. But what if it ways aimed at a stranger?

Im not sure. That will take alot of soul searching on my part.”

“I think I would if I was one of those 1000 soldiers. You can never really tell how you will act until your in that situation though.”

“Very true Dare. Hope and prey I am never in that situation.”

“UK, as far as how to deal with saddam...

I never said that eventually we may have to go to war with him. However, I find that the Bush administration was all over the war issue way too prematurely. The part about him being under a microscope is true in my eyes. And with all the attention placed upon him, combined with the U.N. inspectors doing their work there, that his ability to launch any attack in the coming days is severely limited. Limited enough that we could have toned down the rhetoric and worked to build the coalition with a better showing of our intentions. As a result, I do not believe Bush when he says he doesn't want war. Sorry, but he is as transparent as glass to me. The U.N. inspectors are not just twiddling their thumbs, no matter what you think. Their work there is not finished and we should at least let them achieve some results before declaring them useless. I felt the U.S. could have paced their reactions a little better. Some say, 'who gives a crap what these other countries think.' Well, I am not a fan of a lot of these folks, but it seems to make sense to me to work together with them and build unity than to flex muscles and show the world how mighty and arrogant we can be. Frankly, I do not believe in making unnecessary enemies. The result of that can be suicide bombers, etc. right here in our homeland. Imagine how any of us would feel if that happened (heaven forbid) at any of our children's schools. If the inevitable war solution comes after all alternative methods have been exhausted, then I would not be so outspoken. But, to be honest, we never even attempted to scratch the surface in that area.”

“my last word on this thread hopefully...I got in my truck and headed towards the Enlistment office sept 11th..but being an army brat for all my life, i knew that we would piddle around and do things half @$$. Well, if they enact the draft, and we launch against iraq, korea, france...i will be one of the first to enlist..Army/Infantry..if i can't fly heli's i'll pound the ground.
All you pple that say my son won't go, need to ask your sons...if they love and respect all that this country has done for us they will do what is needed....yea life is wonderful...but everyone dies eventually...might as well LIVE before you die”

“not to get to personal here Opie, but why did you true around? sorry I dont understand your answer on that.
like I said if its too personal then there is no need to answer my question.”

“While I applaud the unhesitating willingness to die in the pursuit of Liberty, I just hope the decision to lose those lives is due to the fact that no other possibility existed to resolve the problem.”

“Yes, I definatly would include myself in the 1000.

I can't ask anyone else to do what I myself am unwilling to do.”

“screw johnny, timmy, billy and all the others, lets go pick up suzy and jane and grab some McDonalds.”

“Huh? Die carte blanc? For a rich man's war?

This thread has been interesting to read. Varied and, for the most part, well articulated opinions on all sides.

Bush blew it. He started the military build-up waaaay too early, so certain and cock-sure that he was going to get to steamroll right into Baghdad and do what he wanted. Apparently he wasn't/isn't close to having his foreign policy ducks in a row because low and behold, the majority of the world questioned his actions. He did force the UN to reconsider its role in the world order and I think this is good. But he could have done that without sending 150,000 troops to the Gulf, raising the hackles of nearly every other nation in the world, and driving the US economy further down the crapper. See, now he REALLY has to FORCE the war because we have overcommitted ourselves and have to comp some of our financial losses through cheap oil. He put us in that position on PURPOSE!”

“I respect anyone's decision to be included in the 1000 in question. One thought, however. Those in charge of the war are not usually the ones in the front line situation. You don't find too many generals leading troops up a hill for a frontal assault.”

“Hey, if anyone is joining the Army, they need to call me....lol. I could use a few more enlistee's. McDonalds? Damn Buddha, you know how to treat a woman. Can I come too?”

“ok, so if someone chooses not to be part of the 1000's, does he have a right to say NO out loud, or keep his feelings as to why to himself?”

“true around?..was that to be turn around?..because my initial thoughts were of what happened after pearl harbor...we waited then also...but it's only a matter of time...when i go, i don't wanna sit around fort jackoff, USA...or camp whereda#&%!$arewe, germany. I'd like my place to be on the northern, southern, eastern, western line”

“Who said there aren’t those out there http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/843850/posts" target="_blank"> protesting in support of war?



”

“That's why it was a two part question. Generals and politicians are the ones making the decisions about spending the 1000 troops. The difference with a general is that at one point in his career he was the one possibly being expended.”

“Just tell 'em you want front line combat infantry.”

“why wait till march to smok'em peace pipe?”

“LMAO at Violin! A massive rally! Did they have a permit for that?”

“oh my, I will do a spell check just for you Opie.”

“"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Teddy Roosevelt”

“i wasn't being anal on spelling ML..i was asking cause it didn't make any sence”

“Dayhiker, I'm not attempting to start a religious debate either. And if you noticed, I did post to the fact that Jesus did not always teach "passive Kum-ba-ya."

Here's what I wrote:
Jesus, Ghandi, King, even Lennon, all died for trying to tell the world about this strange possibility of loving even the enemy, even as he attacks you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at a point, where if some evil man comes knocking at my door threatening to kill me or my child, that I will just back down to it. I DON'T THINK ANY OF THOSE GREAT MEN I MENTIONED WERE TEACHING THAT EITHER.

I think for the most part what I am saying is going unread or ignored. I'm posting my real emotion on the topic, but not getting emotional about it. Does that make sense to you guys? I brought up Jesus to make a clear point about non-violence, not to start a ridiculous discussion about God.

I think Chili and Rosey made good points. It is also my belief (as Rosey said) that we are about to enter into this war and have people on both sides die all for oil. I find that sick. It is also my belief (as Chili mentioned), that there will always be an alternative to war.”

“Die carte blanc? No, I would never suggest that. Major decisions such as the one before our nation requires deep analysis and introspection. I don't believe, as others have suggested, that this is some sort of snap decision in the part of our government.

Is it the best decision? Well that is very much still (obviously) in debate.

To say no to service would require a reasonable explaination in my opinion. Especially if you are reaping the benefits of the service of others. To merely say no and not have a resonable rational would at the very best be mere selfishness. Please note that by my definition reasonalbe would mean a decision based on critical reason and not mere emotions.

I do believe it is an obligation of all citizens to serve their nation or fellow citizens in some respect. However, said service doesn't need to be military service.

I do agree with Mr. Rooseevelt. Debate is a mojor part of our national identity

Ya know y'all, it really does hurt your message when it is filled with misspellings and bad grammar. I'm not being nasty just stating facts here so don't take it that way.”

“So much for the comment on spelling! LOL!”

“HPM:

My reposnse re carte blanc was more in reference to Opie's suggestion that "they love and respect all that this country has done for us they will do what is needed....yea life is wonderful...but everyone dies eventually...might as well LIVE before you die."

But thank you for your input!”

“Having not weighed in on this thread to this point:





The invasion of Iraq is utter political-powered propaganda-based bullcrap.

Say goodbye to our soldiers as you respect them on the way to their deaths. After it's over, maybe you can convince yourselves it was worth it.”