War on Iraq, what is our goal?

“Mutt, do you mean my comment on eating The Iceman's remains or by the difference between Americanizing the West and Liberating the East?”

“Yeah, uh, regardless of your, uh, cannabalistic fantasies, your response to Chili was right on! ;-)”

“and more to the point when did it become ok to abreviate the Middle East to Mideast! - for some reason I find that really annoying!”

“then you must find ME to be maddening!”

“actually I don't mind that - it's just that CNN keep calling it Mideast - they need to have some standards!”

“I am sick of those farmers in the mideast, too. We should attack Iowa as sonnas we finish with saddam.”

“No, this is how you appear to think, when you cynically reduce the reason for war to Bush's greed and sense of revenge. You seem to equate Bush himself with the entire administration, and you're quite eager to paint him/America as evil or at least amoral.


1. I have never suggested that the ONLY reasons for invading Iraq are greed and revenge. I have, instead, suggested that those reasons played a larger part than the administration was willing to admmit.

I am by no means eager to see my country act in an amoral fashion.

America is acting in its own self interest, but that happens to coincide with the best interests in the world in this case: restructuring the ME and fighting the war on terror.

I disagree with the premise that the "War on Terror" is significantly other than a pretense for a political and financial plan to set up a domination of the middle east by the US. I'm not convinced the Middle East will be better off with US forces present.

And actually the Bush admin has shown remarkable regard for other countries, as demonstrated by their endless diplomacy, seeking UN approval, and cutting deals with countries in return for support.


In this, perhaps I've bought into, a little too seriously, the Bush administration's rhetoric. "Either you're with us or you're against us" and the idea that we will go in to Iraq despite whatever the rest of the world's opinion, and despite international law, have colored my viewpoint.”

“Saddam has been violating U.N. resolutions for years. The U.N. has an obligation to disarm Iraq. It's beginning to look as though Saddam is doing whatever he wants behind the U.N.s back. The U.N. doesn't want to enforce their decisions. France is making money in Iraq, that may be part of their reluctance to agree to force.

I agree that if the U.N. does nothing we should, I also agree that if we act we may create WWIII. I do NOT support dubya (if for no other reason he is a deserter, that's a traitor in my book).

As for the oil argument...

When Bush came into office he did everything in his power to ensure energy companies could make insane amounts of money. Look at the fake energy crisis in CA if you need proof. He fought and pleaded to allow oil companies into ANWAR and failed. He's quiet about that now, France and Russia have oil contracts with Iraq (these are not just for oil, but for the maintenance of oil rigs). U.S. oil companies are prohibited from having contracts in Iraq. If we overthrow Saddam (he can't just become a nice guy, the prohibition stands as long as Saddam is in power) then the prohibition is lifted and American oil companies can get in there.
It's not about oil supply, it's about $$ to American oil companies, Bush is selling America to the highest bidder”

“Lookout, donman, you're on the verge of cynicism!”

“Yawn, can someone PLEASE tell me what spice might best accent flash-frozen flesh jerky?”

“I think I'm already cynical about the state of American politics Phaed... I try to be a happy camper about everything else”

“Hyway, try cumin, pepper, garlic and red chili.”

“Bush has said that he thinks he was chosed by God to lead the world at this time in history.

I think he should be institutionalized.”

“cumin!!!! thats what I have been leaving out. Of course, I can then market as Cumin Jerky.”

“So you're saying that with cumin the 'commander and chief' would make good jerky? Better than the 'ice dude?'.”

“51st state”

“'chosed'? WTF? LOL”

“Tell,em Father Goose! Turn the crap hole into a sheet of glass,Iraq ,Iran,Saudi,anybody else want to play?In 50 years or so it will cool down and be a nice place to vacation, kinda like the bikini islands!Ahh yes.”

“<>

That's right- we don't do that kind of thing!!!

Suuuuuuuure....

Like when we overthrew (the ELECTED) Mohammed Mossedegh in Iran in '53, and installed the Shah. We do all remember how that one turned out, right?

Or when we overthrew the (democratically elected) Arbenz goernment in Guatemala a year or so later, facilitating a military junta that has been well documented for torturing and murdering thousands of its own citizens.

How 'bout Chile? Remember how Salvador Allende became president? Yep- an election. Remember how Gen. Pinochet came into power? Murdering Allende, with our assistance. (bonus question- who rewmembers the name of the ex-starlet dating, heavily accented secretary of state who might just have had a little to do with this?) Anybody remember anything about human rights abuses during the junta? torture? "Disappearances"? Dropping political prisoners out of helicopters into the ocean?

We have a long record of supporting dictators whenever and for how long it suits our needs, and to pretend otherwise is crap.
(Ferdinand Marcos?)

Even now in Afghanistan, everything outside of Kabul is back in the hands of the warlords.

I guarantee that there won't be anything even remotely resembling democracy, given that ~60% of the population is Shiite.

Think we're going to help guarantee some autonomy for the Iraui Kurds when that will just piss off the Turks, who, with our tacit permission, have been persecuting their own Kurdish population?

What will that do to the perception of the US? Still think folks around the world will look at us as a kindly savior? Think that might just have *some* effect on terrorist recruitment efforts?

I'm willing to listen to arguments as to why we need to remove Saddam right now. I probably won't agree, but at least I'm willing to hear other opinions.

But to think that this is just about preventing terrorism is more than a little naive, IMO...


Oh- almost forgot-

How many people here advocating Saddam's removal, and using as an example the fact that he used chemical weapons on his own people, posted ANYTHING when over 500,000 Tutsis were massacred in Rwanda, in just over a three month period?”

“This should have headed the last post....

<<>>”

“It was the quote about our not putting in a dictator after...”

“We were wrong to test our weapons on the bikini islands.It was a place of beauty and was inhabited with a beautiful race a people,minding their own business and going about the business of living. But Iraq?, ever wonder why they make their women wear veils? not all a religous issue here! They,re ugly as all get out.The camels look better,especially if you,ve been there for a while.mabey its not the good and the bad,its pretty vs fugly!”

“uhhg....camel no good....@$$hole too high...run to swift....


Not everything. Just the same old canned crap that had no validity to begin with, c.f. stratdewd. Yeah, it's getting old to refute your argument, just to have you bring it up again like it had never been challenged."
Mutt


mutt, you don't refute crap from me, if that's what your're trring to say. you say my comments are unitelligent and move on. your a pompus windbag and a walking contradiction, even though we agree about 75% of the time, i'd like to take this time to tell you formally to kiss my butt.”

“I almost never agree with strat, almost purely on principle, but in this case, I also invite you, mutt, to kiss his butt.”

“"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play."”

“You told a WOPR that time.”

“mrl – anything you put inside brackets like these <<>> will be invisible. You can post in HTML on this board. Check out the HTML thread for more. If you want to post in bold, type your post in this form:

<b>No one has suggested the U.S. should prop up a dictator in Iraq after the war.</b>

and it will look like this:

No one has suggested the U.S. should prop up a dictator in Iraq after the war.


By the way, we haven’t seen much from you. Lyra will want to know how old you are and if you are m/f.”

“Jello Fog will want a Twinkie.”

“Bacpac will want you to agree with him... and submit.”

“ok violin but how come it didn't do it when you showed her how to do it...hhMMMM?


hardy har har phaedielox!”

“I just have one question for all of you that don't think we shouldn't use Military force in Iraq. What should we do? Should we do nothing and watch Sadam build up his forces regardless of the fact that he's not allowed to? Should we wait until he gets nuclear weapons and a launching platform? Should we wait until one of his bio weapons or nukes is detonated in the US? Yea, this passive approach is sounding better and better. :p

We gave him a chance to disarm. We could have "blasted him back to the stone age" if we wanted to, but we didn't. Obviously he didn't take us seriously when we said that we would stop kicking his *** only if he disarmed. Why is it our place to put a stop to him? Because he is a direct threat to us. It would be different if he was just threatening a different country like China or India. Actually in that case many of the anti-war people would be for it because it's a humanitarian effort to save those poor innocent people. I guess Americans don't count then.

As for France? Why even bother. All they could really do is teach Sadam how to Surrender.”

“mutt, you don't refute crap from me, if that's what your're trying to say.

You've got that right! If you articulated insight on anything, I may or may not refute that, but you're right: when you cut and paste crap and disguise it as your argument, I'm going to call you out on it.


your a pompus windbag and a walking contradiction

What contradiction(s) are you referring to?

i'd like to take this time to tell you formally to kiss my butt

If you can't handle criticism, stay out of the debate. Resorting to ad hom is pretty lame.”

“We have a long record of supporting dictators whenever and for how long it suits our needs, and to pretend otherwise is crap.

Who is pretending otherwise? Where have I said the U.S. hasn't?

Really, where in the debate on Iraq has there been mention of "supporting dictators"? We're going to war to overthrow a dictator. Your examples of 20th century support for dictators, while m/l correct, is not a great analogy to Iraq today. Back then we were in a proxy war with the USSR, and we did some pretty unsavory things to contain communism. A better analogy would be the U.S. installing - highly successfully - democracy in Japan and Germany after WWII. We were an invading and occupying country - like we will be in Iraq. I've heard no one mention that as a result of all-out conquest that the U.S. will just prop up a moderate dictator. It's just not germane to the debate, unless Sadam suddenly resigns and goes into exile (highly unlikely it seems).

No, it's your cynicism and selective memory that undermines your argument. Democracy may well prove impossible in the long run for reasons you mention (and for reasons you didn't mention), but so far everything I've read points to the fact that plans are being made for a transition to democracy after the war.”

“And up through the ground came a ' bubblin' crude.
Forgeries, that is.
Yellow cake.
Serial exaggeration.
Premature declaration of success.
Lies, Texas-style...”

“MPHFFFFFFFF!

(the sound of me nosing coffee on my keyboard)”

“Our goal is to feed the hungry...or something”

“The goal is obvious,lie better than Clinton.”

“Re-election?”

“I'm your top prime cut of meat; I'm your choice
I wanna be elected

I'm your yankee doodle dandy in a gold Rolls Royce
I wanna be elected

Kids want a saviour, don't need a fake
I wanna be elected,

We're all gonna ROCK to the rules that I make
I wanna be elected...

Elected...

Elected...”

“Respected, selected, call collected...”

“Our goal is clear. Just as soon as my handlers let me know what that goal is, I'll let you know.”

“I've got the whole thing figured out:

Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle want to be Kings of Kafiristan, just like Peachy and Daniel.”

“Conquest? Bigotry?

Who knows”

“to make liberals whine....

sweet sucess”

“Tell that to the kids comming home in body bags.”

“Impeach the bastard.”