UN Secretary Bill Clinton?

“Savage what Clinton did was wrong but that was the first year that the 4S deferment wouldn't apply to the Rhodes scholarship. Most people who received scholarships that year went anyway. He did end up fudging some things but all in all it's gray area.

My point is that what Clinton did was pretty common back then, yet there were 11k news stories on it. It isn't really draft dodging... he got permission from the draft board.

What Bush did got very little news coverage, but it is illegal and traitorous.

Yet Neo-cons will cut Bush some slack. As a Vet I agree with going into Iraq, but I'm offended that we let a deserter into the Whitehouse. This isn't spin like the Clinton thing, this is desertion.”

“You seem to think your boy George is something special, when in fact, he's just another crook.

Quit fooling yourself.”

“At least Clinton was elected. Twice!

Free and fair elections used to be the way we chose our leaders.”

“My comments were directed towards pedxing comments:

"The recount done by the Republican administration in FLA was inadequate. Them's the facts."

pedxing
12:23:58 PM
02/24/03

The election process in Florida was managed and controlled by Democrats. Ped and yourself seem to want to bend the truth and place the blame on someone else. This is not a new tactic or a very effective one.

"The recount was dome according to the Republican adinistrations dictates. Fact."
pedxing
02:11:22 PM
02/24/03

Again pedxing ingnores the fact that the Democrats set up and managed the election process.”

“I agree that Bush was elected President. But I also state that the election was flawed. That is the truth, I'm sure everyone can agree to that.

I'm still wondering how Bush even made the ticket considering the fact that he is a deserter”

“Was Bush ever charged with desertion?”

“Clinton is respected and admired around the globe.


Most of the world considers Bush to be more of a menace to world peace than Saddam Hussein.”

“You libs are a treacherous bunch that rarely stay on the topic at hand Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz what was I saying”

“http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

nope, Bush was in a "special" unit in the first place. It was for a decommissioned interceptor that wasn't ever going to end up in 'Nam. He jumped ahead of a waiting list. He had several sets of orders that he ignored. He lost his flight status because he failed to get a flight physical (the same year that they first instituted drug testing into fight physicals)”

“But, as Bacpac says, was Bush ever charged with desertion? No, in fact he has an honorable discharge. That was in the link that you provided Donman.”

“it doesn't matter what he's charged with. I guess that means you think O.J. didn't do it.

Savage does your name have anything to do with Michael Wiener?”

“Regarding Clinton’s role in the Korean crisis:

Does it bother you at all that Rumsfeld was on the board of ASA when it won the contract to supply two reactors to Pyongyang?”

“New York, NY, The Disassociated Press...The United Nations Security Council spent the entire day yesterday debating the meaning of is in 14 languages.
By day's end, none of the delegates was able to define the meaning of is in any language.”

“I did not have sex with that fraulein.”

“I did not have sex with that senorita.”

“I did not have sex with that madamoiselle.”

“At least he's still getting laid, LOLOL”

“Clinton did NOT have sex with Michael Jackson...”

“Yeah, he was too damn old for MJ!”

“Does it bother you at all that Rumsfeld was on the board of ASA when it won the contract to supply two reactors to Pyongyang?"
Violin

Gee, I don't know, wasn't Clinton President at the time? The it must be a good thing.

Does it bother you at all that Loral Space Systems, whose CEO is Bernard Schwartz and very large DNC contributor, was allowed to export advanced rocket guidance technology to Bejing?

Does it bother you at all that Vice President Albert Gore privatized the Elk Hills Naval Petroleum Reserve and the buyer was Occidental Petroleum?

If these don't bother you then I guess the reactor sale doesn;t bother me.”

“Bacpac:

#1: It was Gov. Bush (of Florida), in collaboration with a firm from Texas, who set up a flawed process for excluding people who had been convicted of crimes. This flawed process erroneously excluded large numbers of poor and black people with names similar to the felons.

#2: It was the Secretary of State, a Republican who set the limits on the kind of recount done.”

“Well, Those right wingers at the New York Times sure didn't find what they wanted to.
I think we're a lot better off without Al Gore.I'm sick of finding some Liberals hand on my wallet everytime I turn around.Just my opinion....”

“hey kohnmick, did smooth trail name! lol!


Most of the world considers Bush to be more of a menace to world peace than Saddam Hussein."
Violin


hmm,,,wonder where they got that idea , violin? the peace marches do nothing but strengthen hussein and put more of our troops in danger by allowing iraq to prepare better. appeasers will offer nothing when hussein gives some terrorist a MWD and it is used on us.....who will protect you on that day? how will you save me? how bout your mom in seattle? or your best friend back in boston?

...a day of horror like none we have ever known-- george bush



"During the Vietnam War -- the clearest parallel to the present
events -- the anti-war movement was organized by Communists who
wanted the other side to win. The non-Communists who joined their
marches, whatever their intentions, served the same practical end.
America was divided at home and these divisions eventually forced
its armies to retreat from the field of battle. As a result,
the Communists won and proceeded to slaughter two-and-a-half
million peasants in Indo-China between 1975 and 1978. This is the
scenario that the people (mostly the same people) who are leading
Saturday's protests hope to accomplish: the defeat of the West
and the triumph of Islamo-fascism and its friends. ... Today's
'peace' movement -- the innocent-intentioned along with the
malevolent rest -- is a fifth column army in our midst working
for the other side. Already their leaders have warned that if the
United States remains determined to oppose this totalitarian evil
and stay its intended course, they will act within our borders to
'disrupt the flow of normal life' and sabotage the war. This is
ultimately the most ominous threat Americans face. Abroad we
can conquer any foe. The real danger lies at home." -- David
Horowitz”

“There is really no point in debating the liberals. They offer falsehoods as facts and change the subject when faced with the truth.

Do they not know the truth? Are they too lazy to look up the facts? Do they purposely avoid reality?

I don't know, but there is no point wasting my time making them look foolish. They don't need my help.”

“Think Bacpac. It's not illegal, yet.”

“"It would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official
act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over
the universe." Washington continued: "No people can be bound to
acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs
of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by
which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation
seems to have been distinguished by some token of Providential
agency." --George Washington”

“Bacpac seems to be arguin with something I'm not trying to say.

The reason I said the recount was inadequate was that it didn't go through the physical ballots by hand. The reason Harris is culpable is that she blocked the hand recount. The initial recount was done on a strict deadline that did not allow for recounting.

Bacpac seems to think I am arguing that the votes were tinkered with. I am not.

My main point was simply this: Strat and unpronouncoubletrailname got it wrong --- the newspaper sponsored examination of all the ballots in FLA showed that if there had been a careful hand recount, Gore would have won. Ironically, the same examination showed that if even if the Supreme Court had upheld the FLA court ordered recount Bush would still have won - because the recount would only have happened in part of the State. Thus, the Supreme Court was not responsible for handing the election to Bush.”

“This thread reminds me something I saw on O'Reilly's show some time ago.

He was haranging a researcher from the Centers for Disease Control, trying to make some point my twisting what she was saying (surprise)...

And she replied, "Sometimes, Mr. O'Reilly, the reality of a situation is simply too complex to be squeazed into a three-word soundbite."”

“I didn’t think you would get it Savage.

The 1994 agreement with NK has been repeatedly criticized by the Bush administration (to deflect criticism of it’s bungling of the issue). The agreement froze North Korea’s nuclear program in exchange for the construction of two light water nuclear reactors. The Bush administration is telling everyone what a terrible deal this was yet ABB, the company that Rummy sat on the board from 1991- 2001, won the contract to build those reactors for a communist state with declared nuclear intentions. This while he was also active on issues of weapons proliferation, chairing the 1998 congressional Ballistic Missile Threat commission.

No problem, right?”

“"The great lesson of Sept. 11 is not that terrorism must be stopped
-- an impossible dream -- but that state-sanctioned terrorism
must be stopped. The support of a state -- even a weak and poor
state -- offers the otherwise deeply vulnerable enemies of the
established order the protection they need in their attempts to
destroy that order -- through the terrorists' only weapon, murder.
To tolerate the perpetuation of state-sanctioned terror, such
as Saddam's regime exemplifies, is to invite the next Sept. 11,
and the next, and the next. ...To march against the war is not to
give peace a chance. It is to give tyranny a chance. It is to
give the Iraqi nuke a chance. It is to give the next terrorist
mass murder a chance. It is to march for the furtherance of evil
instead of the vanquishing of evil. This cannot be the moral
position." --Michael Kelly”

“Unpronouncable trail name? It's my real name!”

“ped, ,your newspaper sponsered tally is bogus...where did you gather this disinformation? don't you think we would have heard more about it from the liberal elitists in the media if it was legit? no offence peddy, you know i like you, but i say your 'facts' are wrong.......”

“Do I have to do all your homework!? Don't try to tell me I'm spreading disinformation unless you take a good hard look at evidence - not just what you hear in 15 minutes of Limbaugh.

I read the detailed analysis when it came out. You didn't. You just remember the spin put on the results by the Bushies and the illiberal media (just like you got the Bush spin on what the Michigan affirmative action did).

"The reason the "liberal elitists in the media" didn't trumpet this is because the media isn't controlled by liberals. In fact, the media are more often lap-dogs than watch dogs.

Here is the first commentary I found on a google search. It prretty much squares with what I saw when I read carefully:

http://www.chicagomediawatch.org/01_4_gore.shtml" target="_blank"> http://www.chicagomediawatch.org/01_4_gore.shtml!

Here is a key passage:

As the Associated Press noted, "In the review of all the state's disputed ballots, Gore edged ahead under all six scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide." These were the only possible scenarios permitted under the US Supreme Court's ruling in Bush v. Gore.

Yet the headlines of the major papers on Nov. 12 almost universally declared Bush the "real" winner: "Bush Still Had Votes to Win in a Recount, Study Finds" (Los Angeles Times); "Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote" (New York Times); "In Election Review, Bush Wins Without Supreme Court Help" (Wall Street Journal); "Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush" (Washington Post)."

In additon, the original analysis of the contested counties show that the results in those counties alone were not so clear in showing that Bush got more votes.

For example, take a look at this:


http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/" target="_blank"> http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/
Note the key phrases:

-- If a recount of Florida's disputed votes in last year's close presidential election had been allowed to proceed by the U.S. Supreme Court, Republican George W. Bush still would have won the White House, two newspapers reported Wednesday.
The Miami Herald and USA Today conducted a comprehensive review of 64,248 "undercounted" ballots in Florida's 67 counties that ended last month."

") margin of 537 votes -- certified in December by the Florida Secretary of State's office -- would have tripled to 1,665 votes if counted according to standards advocated by his Democratic rival, former Vice President Al Gore."

"Ironically, a tougher standard of counting only cleanly punched ballots advocated by many Republicans would have resulted in a Gore lead of just three votes, the newspaper reported.
The newspapers' review also discovered that canvassing boards in Palm Beach and Broward counties threw out hundreds of ballots that had marks that were no different from ballots deemed to be valid.
The papers concluded that Gore would be in the White House today if those ballots had been counted."

Anyway, you can see that the media (including CNN) led and headlined their stories with the information most supportive of Bush - and that's what got all the attention.

Politics aside Strat, your a great guy - but you are going to piss me off when you accuse me of disinformation without checking out the facts.”

“hmmm I get accused of disinformation and then there is silence when I back it up with evidence.”

“Can you hear the Jeopardy theme playing.... ?”

“LOL!”

“How much time do the contestants usually have to answer? <G>

(I don't think it's anywhere near a WEEK, <GRIN>)”

“Ped, remember, your final answer must be phrased as a question.”

“The silence is deafening.”

“I do not consider a 'What if' scenario to be evidence of anything.”

“Sometimes it's Too Quiet... kinda spooky.”

“Sort of like an empty auditorium....”

“Bacpac - what I have asserted was that the "what if scenario" was misrepresented. I didn't invoke or bring it up. You keep seeming to think I am making an argument that I am not.”

“Bill Clinton was cute.”

“typical lib, votes off of looks not qualifications.”

“Typical NeoCon, all propaganda, no real thought on the issue.”

“Hope you're not holding your breath Ped.”

“As was heard in BSP: "Blue is my favorite color."”

“ped, don't get mad. we're all friends here.


it is futile to argue this point. i can put up 30 links to stories that say bush won. i have yet to hear a response to my point that offshore military votrs were intentially disenfranchised, that thousands of panhandle voters went home without voting after the media had projected the state going to gore. the panhandle is strongly republican and in a different time zone so the polls were open an hour later than the rest of the state. the gore team immediately sent an army of lawers into the state to quibble over every technicality they could find to disqualify opposition votes(bush team did the same thing, i know).

here's my point. if you think for one minute that any reporter would sit on this story, being the story of the century, because he's a lapdog, you're just not thinking clearly. any network would be drooling at the chance to break this. you show me one big media executive producer that would quell this story. FOX WOULD, ,FOX WOULD! ok, so what about the others? there is no way in haties that they would sit on it for any reason. why would they? they would get huge ratings.

i can agree that the florida system was a clusterphuk wating to happen, it was a mess. but tough #&%!$, it was a mess for both sides. both sides could come up with more votes if all the rules went their way. so all you can do is follow the rules to the letter, and accept things the way they shook out. be a good sport. change the rules for next time, if need be.

outrage is most often stirred by someone's perception of an injustice being done. i would be outraged too if i thought there was one being done. even if it went to bush, and i honestly believed it was wrong, i'd speak up about it. the fact is, that we have a system, and the systems ran it's course and spit out a winner. don't like it? fine, change it through the proper channels.


ya'll waist more energy on something that happened 2 years ago. we got real problems here people. division is not the answer.



united we stood.....”

“George Bush has a heart attack and dies. He goes to hell where the devil is
waiting for him.
"I don't know what to do here, " says the devil.
"You are on my list but I have no room for you."
"You definitely have to stay here, so I'll tell you what I'm going to do."
"I've got three folks here who weren't quite as bad as you. I'll let one of
them go, but you have to take their place. I'll even let YOU decide who
leaves."
George thought that sounded pretty good, so he agreed.
The devil opened the first room: in it was Richard Nixon and a large pool of
water. He kept diving in and surfacing empty-handed over and over and over.
Such was his fate in hell.
"No!" George said. "I don't think so. I'm not a good swimmer and don't think
I could do that all day long."
The devil led him to the next room: in it was Tony Blair with a sledgehammer
and a room full of rocks. All he did was swing that hammer, time after time
after time.
"No, I've got this problem with my shoulder. I would be in constant agony if
all I could do was break rocks all day!" commented George.
The devil opened a third door. In it, George saw Bill Clinton, lying on the
floor with his arms staked over his head, and his legs staked in spread
eagle pose. Bent over him was Monica Lewinsky, doing what she does best.
George Bush looked at this in disbelief for a while and finally said,
"Yeah, I can handle this."
The devil smiled and said...
"OK, Monica, you're free to go!"”