FYAO Member Under Fire

“Hey, what about the Army guy? I mean, if we were attacked by the Iraq millitary, I would have been useful. Suppose you had been shot by an AK-47...I'd know what to do. I get no respect.”

“When you pack an Iso Butain stove, no. Lol :-)”

“But to be seriouse again, Dare, you are in the army, in my mind, clearly a good individual.”

“Tea, I know this as a fact. From one Eagle to another, trust me on this.

The council has NO business or authority in this non-issue.

The council will NOT get involved.

The council will NOT listen to her issue.

The council will NOT revoke your eagle because of this.

Frankly, I do not know of ANYONE ever having an Eagle revoked and I can name at least 10 well known cases that are clear cut candidates for revocation.

In short. She doesn't know what the hell she is talking about. Ignore ALL talk of the BSA doing ANYTHING against you. And if she does try anything SHE will be the one removed from Scouts for harrassment if you push back.

What a load of crap.”

“Good for you, Tea.

However, for all of you, just a thought here. What are the laws on the Net regarding children under a certain age? Is it 18? Is it 16? Are there just child porno laws, or any there other laws out there to protect youngsters?

I just throw this out because maybe you are all putting yourselves "out there" for potential problems/charges in taking a person of such an age off on a hike. Was there a signed liability release by Ice Tea? Did his mother sign, since he is under 18?

I certainly don't know implications of things like this, but I do know guys on the net who correspond with alleged 19-year-old females better A) Watch what they're saying and keep it clean; and B) Hope those girls aren't lying to them or their asses could be grass.

I never thought anything of Ice Tea going on a trip with people from this website till after reading all this. You guys -- adults -- are all good people, I'm sure. But, maybe you better watch your butts and consider the greater implications of such a thing as taking a fellow backpacker on a trip... one who is under 18.

Just throwing ideas out here, so don't get on my case, OK? I'm thinking of the protection of everyone. It shouldn't have to be that way, but we all know hysteria over the net and kids is bad, probably why that woman is acting like she did.

Just something to think about in a developing field of law. Maybe that woman thinks she can charge you all with something, or sock Tea's mom with some charge of "unfit mother" or something.

wow..... I, myself, never would have thought of all this...

So are my ideas off the wall? Or something else to legitimately consider in future plans? I am asking.......”

“An interesting point to be sure liz but fortunately I dont know too many here that are rich enough or insured enough that a lawyer would bother with....

as a matter of policy once a person gets above 15 or 16 years old the law does recognise that they are capable of independant thought and decision and so usually more latitude is given in most matters.

One additional point since there isnt a designated trip leader in the same sense as say a sierra outting would have, no one individual could be held completely responsible for actions not their own.

I am not sure we need to get overly paraniod about the matter. Its not like we are taking him to a party and getting him drunk and high nor are we going to use him for our perverted pleasures.(I assume)

maybe prosecutor could shed a dim light on this subject?”

“I'll bet your friend told his Mom something like... "Guess what? Ice went hiking with a dood he met off the internet." and sounding like you did it on a whim and are luckey you weren't murdered.”

“Liz you bring up good points that none of us know the answer to. I think I should find out some answers.”

“I believe that all that would be necessary would be to have Ice Tea's mother sign a permission slip saying that she authorized one of the TT'ers (Artex, since he was driving Tea) to be his temporary guardian for the weekend. This would be good for the reason of medical treatment, because if he went to the hospital for a broken leg, they would want someone who could legally authorize treatment other than immediate emergency treatment. At least this is what I was told when another mother used to babysit my first daughter while I was working (her husband was a lawyer).”

“Makes sence Lyndy, permission slip. Same thing as when I go on a BSA trip.”

“It's sad that we even have to discuss this legal mumbo jumbo, which is not to say it's not valid. Since Ice is nearly 18 and will be a college man in mere months, and I already verified that the guy is more mature than I am (j/k... kind of. I don't equate maturity with being responsible. I'm VERY responsible), I felt perfectly comfortable with him joining us. He adimantly listened to everything that I had to say about cold weather, and asked TONS of questions. Plus, him being a scout, I had a sense that he wouldn't be doing anything foolish. I was very reassured, and it turns out I was right about everything. Had Ice been younger, say 15, I definitely would have had major reservations about him going on this trip.”

“I am playing devil's advocate here... something I usually do well. (What a curse for ME!! lol)

Because you have the best intentions in the world doesn't make something "right."

"Officer, I didn't see the sign dropping the speed limit to 35 from 50 MPH" will probably not get you out of a speeding ticket.

"Mr. Judge, she told me she was 21" would have the same effect.

I am just wondering what the "rules" are... plus, I'm sure this is a developing field of law. As DOM said, maybe prosecutor would know... or maybe chili. Or at least have some rudimentary ideas.”

“Perhaps I'm just naive. But I know my parents would have let me do the same trip under the same circumstances when I was a kid, therefore I didn't really give it much thought. I know it probably would have been the same for most of my friends at the same age.”

“I agree Artie (Tea is more mature)! ;)

Seriously, other than the punk cutting on me about my stove, I think he's a good kid. In fact, one would hardly notice the age differences (I'm thinking a range of about 30+ years?)amongst us when we were hiking and carrying on. Backpackers are truly a different breed.

The permission slip hadn't occurred to me (til now!) and probably would have been a good idea, but...
who the heck would be indemnified in the release??? All of us? In that case, we would all have to sign it too, I think.

So, to settle this matter...Tea when the heck are you going to turn 18, fer dawg's sake?!!!”

“Amy 7/20/03

As for medical, I'm not sure how much it matters but I did tell Artex exactly where I keep my health care card.

I guess I'll have to do a permission slip for the next trip, unless some one who knows law can conferm or denigh this.”

“Of course, like most things in America, it varies from state to state. I had some buddies who got picked up in Tennessee, and found out belatedly that if you're under 18, you have to have specific permission to be out of your home state unless you're with your legal guardian. At least, in Tennessee, that's the case. I would guess that many states have similar laws, mostly to make it legal for the cops to pickup runaway minors even if they're not breaking any other law.

Chili or prosecutor would know for sure. Heck I bet tango would know for Florida.”

“The authorities will not get involved unless there is a complaint or are somehow made aware that something illegal has happened.

Teas Mom giving verbal permission is sufficient last I heard BUT with all the well-hyped cases of parental kidnapping a little while ago there have been a bunch of laws passed that restrict the travel of minors. Like bitpusher said, it varies state to state.

Scouting requires permission slips so that there is a concrete record that can be easily shown in case there is a problem that the parents consented to their childs participation in the activity.”

“But, Tea's mom was in the hospital, I think he said for depression?? There might be a question of sound mental state there. I'm not saying this in a bad way. Again, just bringing up things to think about here.

I just know when my late mother was in the hospital, due to her mental condition, she wasn't signing anything. Now I had a guardianship, which is a whole different situation than here.

But my point is, something like that might come into play, also. Verbal permission of a mother in a hospital for a mentally depressed condition might be questionable....”

“I think Tea may have a valid suit against his school for allowing him/encouraging him to post on the net all day "in lab" and being brainwashed to venture off with a bunch of stranges where he may have been violated or worse.”

“OK! NOONE hike with Ice Tea until July!!!

SirPete, lizs, lyndyS, HPM, DOM et al, your points are all very well taken. Trip planning involving persons under 18 should be well thought out, for every one's safety. Thanks, y'all!

Personally, if I knew Tea was under 18, I would have left him in the car!!! {ha ha ha j/k!}

May I suggest a backpack in Tea's honor, July 25-27. We'll call it, "Tea's Revenge @ 18"! We can try and kill him off then {for that Iso-butane comment} and then just tell the authorities that Tea "slipt" or something!

Rock On Tea, you are WAY more mature that I ever was at 17.5!”

“I’m wondering if Ms. Busybody isn’t more worried that by talking about your trip in front of other scouts, you might influence other kids who have less judgment and they’ll get into a bad situation. You must remember that tragic Sam Manzi case.

If they never revoked my Eagle, I’d say it can’t be done. lol”

“Hmmm.....

I seem to have missed the mom the hospital and depressed part.

I think the permission slip untill you are 18 would be your best bet to protect your family and those you hike with.”

“I went back and looked in the initial post of the thread. OK, that was involved in a differrent incident. Sorry. My bad.

I wish someone with some legal knowledge would take a look at this stuff.”

“Yeah, my mother is back at work since the 3rd of Feb. Since January she has been healthy, and she was reliced from the hospitale right before thanksgiving.

I think a permission slip would be good. Is Chilli or prosecuter a lawyer or something?”

“They both are lawyers, T. Permission slips signed by your mom would be a good CYA thing to have, in case you get stopped out-of-state. But you only have to worry about it for 5 months.”

“I really want to join in the upcoming PA trips.”

“Tea, why don't you give a shout out to prosecutor on the board? Or just post for some law advice. I am sure that there are probably more lawyers here than we know about.”

“JMitch is a lawyer also.”

“Just have your Mom write a permission slip and postdate it.

That woman is full of cr@p. I'm sure she's helped you out in the past, but it's time to leave her behind.

She and the other chicken littles in this world are going to hold you back. All you have to do is take a few precautions (permission, etc.,) and you'll be fine.”

“I just posted this on the thread where Tea asks for advice. It seems people think I am just making trouble.

No, I just have questions. Here is my personal experience with "the law," where my ex and I got socked for something. Had we known this was gonna happen, his a$$ never would have been at this event!

Good luck, tea. I meant nothing bad by my questions. Just things to consider. Once my ex hubby helped some other men capture and hold a guy hostage who had broken into a building on a farm. He had a history of stealing stuff.

The "friendly" farmers helping out had at least one basefall bat. I'm not sure if it was used or not. I am guessing it was used to threaten and perhaps scare the criminal, yes.

However, bottom line is this: My ex, just for being there, got sued for being part of a "vigilante force"... harrassment, I suppose. Everyone farmer (virtually all had been robbed by this man at one time or another) there got sued. We ended up paying something like $500 in damages to Mr. Criminal.

So things don't always go as they seem. You can be a fairly innocent bystander in something and end up in over your head. I say this to all those adults on the trip.”

“Absoluty nothing was said to me over this by Mrs. X.

Her son did threten to move out and live with his father if she pulled anything, as if council revoked my eagle, he would hand over his too.”

“Good deal Ice Tea. Even still, I think that your thread here was very useful in bringing out some good council on the issue of bringing a minor on a backpacking trip. I think that there should also be some education offered to adults, on the good uses of the internet to network, versus the bad uses that subject people to danger. You know, like the presentations offered at the town library on subjects like "How to Prepare Your School-Age Child for Recess"”

“Good lesson in talking to others about problems, using a support group of friends for advice vs acting out.

Perhaps she was just testing you to see how you would respond.”

“Glad it was much ado about nothing.

Get the Eagle revocation thing out of your mind. It'll never happen even if this issue did explode. This is not merely my opinion, I know this as a fact.”

“Lyndy, maybe some massachuets liberal can start a government program for this......and charge me more in taxes for it. LOL

I do agree in the lack on knowledge on the rules of the net. I think that is because it is so new. I think a permission slip will cover us all, next time.”

“More taxes, blech! The seminars should always pay for themselves with a registration fee. But of course my suggestion was really tongue in cheek.”

“Watch it ice.... shes slipping you da tongue!”

“And as DIRTYOLDMAN implies LyndyS, age 43-ish, is giving Ice Tea,under 18, the tongue..... LOL!! THINK before ya post!! LMAO!!”

“Fun killer Liz....”

“Hi Tea--I just read this whole thread end to end. I admire your attitude about this whole thing and I also admire your friend--sounds like he stood up for you real well like a good friend should.

ps when I was your age I was married and had a daughter”

“Oh we sure can turn the most innocent of things into a dirty and perverted affair....

:}”

“That's your job, dom, isn't it?”

“Yeah, clean old man just dosen't have the same ring to it.”

“LOL... well, then again, Ice Tea is on **MY** ICQ list...

Isn't he an FBI agent over age 40? Isn't that what bacpack always said??? LOL”

“yeah and maybe Im a 12 year old girl....”

“I installed ICQ like a week ago, but no one is ever on, so I ditched it.”

“NO! For Gawd's sake, don't do that!

I'm just back from March break and dug up this thread because I was interested in how Ice Tea made out.

First, I am very impressed by Tea's mature analysis of the situation and his reasoned reaction. Good stuff, Tea.

Realising he might do well to get more information before reacting further was, in my opinion, excellent.

About waivers - here I possess some expertise. It might seem of little importance, particularly in Canada where one controls one's treatment from the age of 14 and has the right of absolute privacy, even from parents (no, I don't like it either). The fact that Artex had your medical card might not have helped - you might be unconscious, for example, and Artex could not have authorised treatment. Contacting a parent might have been difficult, not to mention proving (across state lines) that she/he is one and legally competent to give authorisation. Another relative might not be legally competent.

I would suggest using the BSA waiver as it would be pretty well complete in foreseeing contingencies. Don't forget to initial any changes (Artex's name in place of BSA, for instance) that you might want to make on the form and make sure it has the contact name of your closest relative legally able to authorise treament, as well as a signed (by the parent or guardian) statement that your accompanying adult has been delegated to act on her/his behalf. Don't forget to give a photocopy of the waiver to this person.

Many jurisdictions will permit emergency treatment or operations in the hospital on the doctor's call, but treatment doesn't end there.

Three years ago I organised a rugby exchange with thirty-two adolescent girls to Victoria, B.C. on the west coast. I was meticulous in my paperwork, particularly as rugby is a contact sport. The other coach was a little more cavalier in his approach. Well, of course one of his girls gets hurt seriously enough to be hospitalised. There was no problem at first, she had her medical insurance card and was conscious. However, when the coach went to the drugstore with her prescription, the druggist asked, 'Who are you?'

The only legal answer was, 'Nobody.'

Luckily, this is the country and we went to the neighbouring village where they know me, know I coach high school rugby and didn't ask any questions.

It might be an idea to have a TT waiver prepared for TTers who embark on a trip/escapade that was suggested or organised by another TTer and kept on the trip file. No-one goes anywhere with anyone from the Alpine Club of Canada without having signed one.

Just my 0,02 $”

“Thanks Gremlin, that does help illuminate the details a little better.”

“Give her Artex's name, rank, and phone number.

I didn't have time to read this whole thread, but she sounds like a real pain in the ass.”

“Ninety-nine posts about me getting hounded by this one person and now she invites me to a stake dinner w/ her son at a fancy place in NJ. There are two points that I would like to talk about:

One, today when I called my pal to talk to him about Venture Crew stuff I got his mother who I greeted with “Hi Mrs. X, how are you...Oh’ good and your self. I’m fine, but I’m looking out my window at 20 something temps and 3 inches of snow as leftwing extremists still complain about global warming.” she laughs, and then we bash the left and talk for about 30 minutes. She says, “Keith your like a stranger now days, you haven’t been over in months, I have no idea what’s going on in your life. How’s college?” I know exactly why she knows nothing about my life now, because she new too much before. I also know she found out about the trip from my Venture crew advisor who I told. So I say, yeah I realized that last week too. Then I’m invited to dinner to celebrate the ending of high school. We spoke a little about the trip. I said, I followed your advice and made sure no one from scouts new about the trip. She says something like I know and that is better then you showing off your photos, but you do understand that scouting frowns upon that use of the Internet. I’m aware, I know what you think of it, and you know what I think but we can agree to disagree. Then we talked about our troop and modern business.

My second point is hypocritical of my friend. He was so mad with me that I was talking all about FYAO in front of young scouts and they may follow my lead. So for OLP I told my good friend “hey, don’t ask me to do anything this weekend (wink wink)”. I did that so he didn’t exactly know what I was doing. Besides my mother, Uncle, Venture Crew Advisor and teachers I am fond of at school knew about it. Well when I’m talking to another friend from the troop he asks me how was this weekend? I’m like it was good, but what are you talking about? (Thinking he knows nothing of OLP) well apparently Saturday they got together went on a short hike and made fun of me saying was going to get raped by you all. I know that’s the going joke and I don’t care. But what does bother me is that I did exactly what my friend and his mother asked. I told no one, and then he goes telling people. So hypocritical. I said to him, why did you do that after busting my balls weeks ago so hard. He’s like well every one there new all about the last trip, so. Basically he tried to spilt hairs. It pissed me off, but we are good friends and even though I am mad about that and another thing I wont let tarnish our friend ship.


Not one word spelt wrong!!!.”