Economy UP

“The Japanese car companies are unionized in Japan. They aren't unionized here.

And Ontario, Canada has probably taken as many American auto jobs as Mexico and China. The reason? They have nationalized health care and the car companies don't have to pay for it. As a result, they can build cars more cheaply five minutes across the border from Detroit with Canadian labor.

Southwest Airlines, the most consistently profitable airline, is 87% union.

The American car companies' biggest problem is that they misjudged the market. They placed all of their bets on SUVs and trucks. So, when the market changed, they didn't have cars that people wanted to buy.

But they were perfectly fine with paying health care and pensions when everybody wanted an Escalade.”

“So Socialisim is the way to go huh Reformed? LOL...yeah and when someone had a HORRIBLE medical need...they routinely fly them to.....Namibia right (LOL)?

The reason for Southwests Success is NOT the Union it is the fact that the employees are encouraged to serve the clients.

As for the incredible success of socialized medicine in England and Canada...who come patients are coming the the US to pay cash for routine stuff like CT scans?”

“Unions have their good and bad points. They have in the past drastically improved pay and working conditions for workers. Unfortunatly most unions tend to hamper attempts to streamline or modernise operations which kills long term productions sooner or later.”

“correction: Unions had their good and bad points. Laws have since superseded the benefits of unions.”

“XL!

I tend to be a middle-of-the-road kind of guy. Even the best ideologies have massive problems. The real world calls for compromise.

Unions are like anything else. They can be good. They can be bad. It's all in the details.

You are absolutely correct that Southwest Airlines is successful because of good management.

My post above was not, BTW, a call for nationalized health care. But it is the truth that jobs have moved to Canada because health care costs are subsidized.

If you look at the stats on health care expenditures, the United States pays about twice as much as the next highest country as a percentage of GDP on health care.

I don't think that national health care is the answer. But, I'm not sure that 10 to 15% of GDP is best spent on health care.”

“Nice thoughts, reformed lurker.

Misjudging the market played its part. I loved when the new GTO was introduced. It was just before gas prices skyrocketed.

But the unions have their share of responsibility. Union brokered retirement benefits and higher union wages play a big part in the decline of U.S. industry, not just the auto industry. Just as government mandated retirement benefits and wage increases hurt the poor more than they help by raising prices and restricting the job market.

Yeah, socialized medicine helps some. I’ve enjoyed understanding how companies lobby government for market relief. It would be interesting to research exactly which businesses are lobbying government for socialized medicine. Government intervention almost always discourages competition and encourages the growth of government monopolies.

Are monopolies OK if they’re government run?

Most socialist European countries have 10-12% unemployment. The real GDP growth rate of Germany, Netherlands, France, UK, Finland, Sweden, and Canada (which are all held up by our media as great examples of socialized medicine), are all worse than ours. If our media will report the facts, it will be interesting to see how bad their economies get when their boomers retire.

Would socialized medicine help companies? Some larger companies would benefit, most certainly. Especially the ones where unions have gained the most generous health care benefit concessions.


We all owe a debt to some good ideas that unions implemented. But I agree with lumberjack’s take.”

“Look, Unions were necessary at one time. But today they seem (okay i will give a break to Electrical Workers Unions that do push for professional testing and quality) to be more interested in their own survival than creating success.
The unions oppose private voting for various decisions (yeah like I am going to vote against the Union Thugs for major decisoins if they are going to know). I think the unions could survive if they could offer thier positions as insurance.

If a component was poorly made the union would offer to pay for changes etc. But sadly the unions have now become just another arm of the failed Socialist Workers Unions.”

“Arclite,

That's a good post.

I just have a couple of things to add.

Unions basically have as much power as the market and corporations allow.

Companies have to agree to the contracts.

I don't know what the exact number is now, but my understanding is that about 12% of the population belongs to a union. And most of that is concentrated in certain industries. And, of course, that number is decreasing daily.

It's a convenient bogeyman for Republicans to argue about, but it's really only a small percentage of the work force.

It convenient to complain about unions when you don't want to deal with a transitioning economy.

Personally, I think that unions have a productive role to play in society. You are welcome to disagree.”

“It's a convenient bogeyman for Republicans to argue about, but it's really only a small percentage of the work force.

I don't care what the overall % is.

It's 100% of the public schools in my state - and most of the state government.

It should be 0% in each.

That's plenty for me to argue about it.”

“It convenient to complain about unions when you don't want to deal with a transitioning economy.

Wow, that's one of the least understanding arguments I've ever heard.

Are you saying that we've just started complaining about unions recently??

My complaints go way back - and just because there may be other issues to reconcile, that doesn't mean this issue cannot be addressed.

Can't you guys talk about the issue instead of the others' motivations for their viewpoints? It's like the first day of debate class around here.”

“Orders for manufactured goods soar
By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer
Thu Oct 26, 8:49 AM ET

WASHINGTON - Orders to U.S. factories for big-ticket manufactured goods, powered by a huge jump in demand for commercial jetliners, soared in September by the largest amount in more than six years.

The Commerce Department reported that orders for durable goods rose by 7.8 percent last month to $226.7 billion. The increase followed two consecutive months of declines and was the biggest gain since June 2000.

The improvement was more than triple the 2.3 percent gain that Wall Street had been expecting, but virtually all of the strength came from a giant 183.2 percent increase in orders for commercial aircraft. Outside of transportation, orders were up a far weaker 0.1 percent.

In a second report, the Labor Department said the number of newly laid off workers filing claims for unemployment benefits rose by 8,000 last week to a seasonally adjusted 308,000. That increase was in line with expectations.

The September 7.8 percent increase in factory orders followed declines of 0.1 percent in August and 2.8 percent in July. Despite last month's jump, analysts believe that the factory sector is slowing under the impact of a weakening overall economy.

The economy began the year with growth at a sizzling pace of 5.6 percent at an annual rate but saw that slow to 2.6 percent in the spring and analysts believe overall economic growth in the just-completed July-September quarter slowed even further to around 2 percent or less. The government will report the actual third quarter figure on Friday.

For September, transportation orders rose by 27.6 percent as the big jump in demand for commercial aircraft offset a 6.1 percent drop in orders to automakers, who have been struggling recently under the impact of weak sales of trucks and sport utility vehicles.

The rise in commercial airplane orders had been expected, given that Boeing Co. booked new orders for 175 planes, up from 30 in the prior month.

The 0.1 percent increase in orders excluding transportation was the first advance in this category since June. Orders excluding transportation had fallen by a sharp 1.5 percent in August and 0.1 percent in July, signaling that the manufacturing sector was slowing.

Outside of the booming aircraft sector, orders were generally weak across the board. Demand for primary metals such as steel fell by 1 percent while orders for computers were down 2.3 percent and communications equipment dropped by 5.3 percent. Orders for machinery did post a 1.3 percent increase.

Orders for non-defense capital goods, excluding aircraft, considered a good barometer of business investment, did increase by a healthy 1.1 percent, the best showing since May.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy_8”

“Walmart is a clear case in point. If they unionised they could in fact force management to provide health care and better wages.”

“... and then go out of business.”

“LOL the unions HATE Walmart..now if they are having good employees and the union wants to make some dinero why not start a health insurance company that will service the lower income people.
Or better yet why not pay the union thug protesters mimimum wages and give them benefits? Oh yeah..that would not be duplicitous...totally against the grain of socialisim.”

“

”

“For anyone interested the largest union members are...Government Employees. That is why the Defeatocrats wanted to make the Federal Air Transportation Airport Security Services....federal so that they could join the UNION>”

“yep, good pay great benefits.... all thanks to a union :)”

“And lots of good nap time and time to steal from the company by surfing the net...”

“Walmart is being priced out of many foreign markets and having to sell out and run. The stocks down today and probably will be for a while. It like the US government is too BIG.”

“Out of work in Michigan? Wyoming wants you.

By Amanda Paulson, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Mon Oct 30, 4:00 AM ET

WRIGHT, WYO. - When Zeb and Sharon Goodrich look out their front door these days, they see antelope, sweeping treeless plains, and dozens of jack rabbits - a far cry from the view at their previous home in Lake Odessa, Mich.

"I miss the trees," Mr. Goodrich admits. "I was in shock when I [saw] how many trees there weren't." On the other hand, he likes that "you feel like you have room to breathe."

More important: He has good work, and lots of it.

Goodrich's job as a welder for a mine- services company pays far better than the welding he was doing back in Michigan, especially when he factors in the opportunity for overtime. And unlike the jobs in Michigan, it's not in danger of disappearing any time soon.

The Goodriches are at the vanguard of a small, new migration westward. As a result of aggressive recruiting on the part of job-rich and labor-poor Wyoming - and their family's willingness to leave roots and relatives behind in search of a more secure future - Zeb, Sharon, and their two young boys moved more than 1,000 miles this spring to a region in the throes of an oil, gas, and coal boom.

Employers in Wyoming are hoping that many more follow. For nearly a year, several county economic development councils and companies have targeted Michigan, with its large pool of skilled blue-collar labor and dwindling jobs, to try and fill the state's thousands of job openings. They've conducted three job fairs and placed a huge billboard outside Flint, Mich: "Live and Work in Wyoming!" And they're having some success.

"The Michigan folks are really fitting in," says Ruth Benson, director of the Campbell County Economic Development Corporation, just back from a recent recruiting trip.

Few of the Michiganders who move let Ms. Benson know they've done so, but she knows of at least 65 who have moved to her county in recent months, and hears of many more. Her county's website, www.jobswyoming.net, has been getting thousands of hits. "It's not for everyone," she says of the move, "but it's good for some."

Campbell County - which produces more than 35 percent of the coal used for the nation's electricity - is filled with evidence of the boom. Lines of trucks and cars - especially at shift changes - wind through roads in an otherwise barren landscape. Gas wells dot scrubland near the highway. Houses are going up all over.

Unemployment in the county is 1.7 percent - compared with 3.6 percent in the state and 7.1 percent in Michigan. And the mineral industry has given Wyoming a budget surplus of nearly $2 billion - evidence of which is seen in the new schools, civic centers, and infrastructure springing up.

In tiny Wright, for instance, where the Goodriches live, the population of 1,500 has four or five new playgrounds, a stocked fishing pond for kids, a new library, and a recreation center with an indoor pool.

"They're not burning the desk to heat the school," Zeb says with a laugh.

Such a boom has a downside too, though, as many families learn when they try to find a place to live - especially if they also need to sell a home in a depressed market like Michigan's.

The growing population has sent housing prices soaring, and many newcomers have to wait months just to find a place that's available. Motels are filled with laborers, and many companies need to offer temporary housing to lure workers. The lower-paying service sector has also had a hard time finding and keeping workers, with so many better-paying jobs available.

Benson is hoping that once the county is able to lure more skilled workers for the high-paying energy-related jobs, their "trailing spouses" will follow, and hopefully fill some of the many service and part-time positions. Sharon, for instance, has already bought a day-care center in Wright, which serves 51 kids.

She's enjoying her work, especially since it keeps her with 4-year-old Zeb Jr. and 3-year-old Jacob.

But the main change for the better has been for her husband. Back in Michigan, Zeb was doing welding on water heaters, bored by the monotonous work and making some $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Now, he works at P&H MinePro Services, repairing and building the massive coal mining equipment. The only thing that keeps him from overtime is the need to spend time with his family, and he loves the work - even when it means 14-hour nighttime shifts.

"I call my friends and ask how their job is, and then say, 'Oh, I worked on the world's largest electric shovel last night,' " he says, grinning. "It's not hard to make six figures here if you don't mind working."

He remembers an ethanol plant back in Michigan that got 10,000 applications for 35 jobs. Here, he jokes, "you've got 35 people applying for the 10,000 jobs."

Still, despite his best efforts, none of his friends have followed him. And even Benson admits it can be an uphill struggle to get people to leave their extended families to come to an area they may never have heard of.

When she and officials in several other counties first realized what a labor shortage they had, they tried recruiting from Texas and the Gulf states, encouraging those displaced by hurricane Katrina to move to Wyoming.

"It was late fall, and they'd call and ask about the weather and all but hang up on you," she remembers.

Michigan, with its own tough winters and outdoorsman culture, has been a better fit, but it's still a challenge. Also, the area's employers don't want just any workers - they need heavy equipment operators, electricians, welders, mechanics, and other skilled laborers.

The growing population, though, is creating some need for a few other professions too. Richard Andriaens, Gillette's chief of police, moved here from Royal Oak, Mich., nearly two years ago. Budget cuts forced him to take an early retirement from the police department there, and as he scanned Michigan for police chief openings, he happened across an advertisement for Gillette, Campbell County's largest town.

"I thought, if we're going to move an hour, why not 20 hours?" he remembers. Since then, he's brought three more Michiganders to the department, and is going back on another recruiting trip in November.

The lack of shopping has been a bit tough for his wife, but mostly he says it's been a welcome change.

"I used to commute to work with half the number of people in this entire state," he says. His oldest son shot his first antelope and mule deer a few weeks ago, and his other three kids have all adapted quickly. "The best kept secret out here is the weather," he laughs.

As with the Goodriches, Chief Andriaens says the hardest part has been being away from family, but he's never looked back.

"I'm from a blue-collar family, and the blue-collar orientation makes you set strong roots," he says. "But if you have even a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit, then the opportunities here are just incredible."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061030/ts_csm/agillette”

“Reformed Lurker, I think you’re probably right about unions having a role, but how important I really don’t know? I don’t know enough about that to speak intelligently on the subject.

I do know that I worked as a helper for a union plumber for a year. We had a non-union guy on the job as well. It wasn’t even a contest. My union guy really knew his stuff compared to the non-union guy.

I do know that Friedman speaks about the harm caused by unions raising prices and reducing competition. I also believe that unions act as a certain quality control. It’s an interesting issue that I don’t know enough about.

I’m not sure that the Reps really use that as a huge issue. The truth is that most unions support Dems., so it is an issue.

Yeah, government unions, talk about socialism in action. It’s nigh impossible to get fired, pay is comparable to private wages in many places, while the healthcare, and the retirement benefits, in many cases can’t be matched by private industry. Meanwhile we end up with a government monopoly that costs a huge, and growing, amount for the taxpayer.

Check out the healthcare and retirement benefits for Senators. Whatever happened to public service?


Here’s an interesting article about Wal-Mart:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/13/AR2006091301573.html


Democrats Vs. Wal-Mart
By George F. Will
Thursday, September 14, 2006; Page A21
EVERGREEN PARK, Ill. -- This suburb, contiguous with Chicago's western edge, is 88 percent white. A large majority of the customers of the Wal-Mart that sits here, less than a block outside Chicago, are from the city, and more than 90 percent of the store's customers are African American.

One of whom, a woman pushing a shopping cart with a stoical 3-year-old along for the ride, has a chip on her shoulder about the size of this 141,000-square-foot Wal-Mart. She applied for a job when the store opened in January and was turned down because, she said, the person doing the hiring "had an attitude." So why is the woman shopping here anyway? She looks at the questioner as though he is dimwitted and directs his attention to the low prices of the DVDs on the rack next to her.

Sensibly, she compartmentalizes her moods and her money. Besides, she should not brood. She had lots of company in not being hired: More than 25,000 people applied for the 325 openings.

Which vexes liberals such as John Kerry. (He and his helpmeet last shopped at Wal-Mart when?) In 2004 he tested what has become one of the Democrats' 2006 themes: Wal-Mart is, he said, "disgraceful" and symbolic of "what's wrong with America." By now Democrats have succeeded, to their embarrassment (if they are susceptible to that), in making the basic numbers familiar:

The median household income of Wal-Mart shoppers is under $40,000. Wal-Mart, the most prodigious job-creator in the history of the private sector in this galaxy, has almost as many employees (1.3 million) as the U.S. military has uniformed personnel.

A McKinsey company study concluded that Wal-Mart accounted for 13 percent of the nation's productivity gains in the second half of the 1990s, which probably made Wal-Mart about as important as the Federal Reserve in holding down inflation. By lowering consumer prices, Wal-Mart costs about 50 retail jobs among competitors for every 100 jobs Wal-Mart creates . Wal-Mart and its effects save shoppers more than $200 billion a year, dwarfing such government programs as food stamps ($28.6 billion) and the earned-income tax credit ($34.6 billion).

People who buy their groceries from Wal-Mart -- it has one-fifth of the nation's grocery business -- save at least 17 percent. But because unions are strong in many grocery stores trying to compete with Wal-Mart, unions are yanking on the Democratic Party's leash, demanding laws to force Wal-Mart to pay wages and benefits higher than those that already are high enough to attract 77 times as many applicants than there were jobs at this store.

The big-hearted progressives on Chicago's City Council, evidently unconcerned that the city gets zero sales tax revenue from a half-billion dollars that Chicago residents spend in the 42 suburban Wal-Marts, have passed a bill that, by dictating wages and benefits, would keep Wal-Marts from locating in the city. Richard Daley, a bread-and-butter Democrat, used his first veto in 17 years as mayor to swat it away.

Liberals think their campaign against Wal-Mart is a way of introducing the subject of class into America's political argument, and they are more correct than they understand. Their campaign is liberalism as condescension. It is a philosophic repugnance toward markets, because consumer sovereignty results in the masses making messes. Liberals, aghast, see the choices Americans make with their dollars and their ballots and announce -- yes, announce -- that Americans are sorely in need of more supervision by . . . liberals.
Before they went on their bender of indignation about Wal-Mart (customers per week: 127 million), liberals had drummed McDonald's (customers per week: 175 million) out of civilized society because it is making us fat, or something. So, what next? Which preferences of ordinary Americans will liberals, in their role as national scolds, next disapprove? Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet?

No. The current issue of the American Prospect, an impeccably progressive magazine, carries a full-page advertisement denouncing something responsible for "lies, deception, immorality, corruption, and widespread labor, human rights and environmental abuses" and for having brought "great hardship and despair to people and communities throughout the world."

What is this focus of evil in the modern world? North Korea? The Bush administration? Fox News Channel? No, it is Coca-Cola (number of servings to Americans of the company's products each week: 2.5 billion).

When liberals' presidential nominees consistently fail to carry Kansas, liberals do not rush to read a book titled "What's the Matter With Liberals' Nominees?" No, the book they turned into a bestseller is titled "What's the Matter With Kansas?" Notice a pattern here?
last edited: 10/30/06 3:31:21 PM”

“How can the Unions support the very people we here are infavor of allowing more and more rights for illegals? I am sorry but that sad state of affairs means the very people keeping wages depressed are supported by the very people who want to raise wages.”

“XL - maybe unions support illegals because the very entities that make thier presence here in the USA financially viable, illegally, I might add, are the very people that people unionize against. In other words, unionizing illegals, and allowing them to collectib=ve bargain, will bring up thier wages and benefits, lessening the strain on legal union people.

Ever think of that?”

“LMAO!!!!!

The funny thing is he's SERIOUS!!!

Oh man. Unfreakingbelieveable!

That's gotta be the saddest SADDEST attempt at saving face EVER!

ROTFL!”

“Infallible as always Booby Bear!”

“Unions are required by law to support even non- members....”

“like fair-share who are REQUIRED to pay the union? nice!”

“Good response buddah...so what the Defeatocrats need to do is LOSE big time in the elections then people will see how incredibly great they are and just switch sides.....?

No wait thats not liberal logic....let me hook up the FEEELOMETER.....

Okay so we bring Illegals on board (notoriously macho race) and tell them they need HELP from pasty Union Thugs....So hows it going so far (LOL).

I have a great idea, the unions can totaly disband then as they disband more and more people will want to join them. Then the liberals can disband and they can get more and more people to join them...I mean according to the FEELOMETER this FEELS right...(LOL)”

“Wait a second, XL. My FEEELOMETER is telling me something different.

My FEEELOMETER tells me that the Dems can't disband because they never banded. The Dems don't actually stand FOR anything.

What they do is sit in their comfy armchairs, or wave protest signs, and criticize everything that they disagree with. The only thing is, they don’t know what they agree with. All they know how to do is complain about what they think is wrong.

Did you hear John Kerry’s latest remarks? The Dems can’t hide their disdain towards people who decide to serve their country with their lives. They think complaining is the patriotic way to go.

Much can be criticized about the current administration’s policies but, if you want to get elected, you should at least come up with ideas other than moving inexorably towards socialism. That’s just stupid to the extreme.




I heard something very funny on the radio last night. The guy who invented the Plastic Pink Flamingo is closing his business. He said that when he graduated from art school he could either starve trying to depend on earning a living from people with good taste, or he could earn a good living off of people with bad taste because there are so many more of them.

Just like that guy, the Dems pander to that lowest common denominator.
last edited: 11/01/06 6:03:29 AM”

“Arc..is right! (RARIN") (reference Blazing Saddles)

The Dems are actually a loose mixture of fringe elements held together by hate. Don't believe me...there have been some hilarious editorials that Nancy Pelosi may not want to be Speaker of the House becuase she will be pulled between the fringe that want "Defeat in Iraq" "Impeachment of Bush" and "Amnesty for Illegals" and the much larger part of society who would respond rather negativly.”

“More bad news for the libbies.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1120/p01s03-usec.html”

“lalalalalalala! We can't hear you!”

“Is it the wages rising or the cost of living falling?”

“Um gee sale thats what I love about libbies...since you FEEEL it can't possibly be getting better then you are required to FIND the Cloud in every silver lining.”

“Intereesting. After years of wage stagnation, wages are growing - the last time they were growing this fast was in Clinton's second term. Sure, I'm glad their rising. I guess this means that Bush may be the best president since Clinton.”

“UM well we will see, since the Congress has more of an effect on the nation than the president...we shall see what the first quarter of next year looks like.”

“Thanks for straightening that out for us Ped. I was breathlessly awaiting you ruling on the matter.”

“I'm surprised the left is looking at the negative side of this. (re: pedxing)

I normally wouldn't think their glass was half empty when it came to America's successes.”

“The economy sucks. My 401k is up about 15k in the last 3 months.”

“As long as the glass has Bush's face on it they will hate anything that goes inside the glass no matter how damn full it is.

Anything good under Bush is bad for them so they will deflect or ignore until a democrat gets in there. But, of course, then everything will be Bush's fault for 20 years just like they accuse the right of doing to Clinton.”

“Wow. Interesting I get bashed for negativity but look where all the sour notes are coming from.

Like I said, I'm happy things have been up this year. But wholly smokes Bush puts together one year that looks like the majority of Clintons and y'all act like he's a miracle worker.”

“LOL! Sorry Ped but after 6 years, I'm tired of the crying. The Bush haters have been frothing at the mouth since 2000. It's old hat as well as the "If you aren't against Bush you wanna have his baby!", routine. No one is calling Bush a miracle worker. He's a doofus. Some are just fed up with negative people pissing on anything that happens to be good news. Especially when that piss is accompanied with a superiority complex.
last edited: 11/20/06 7:14:28 PM”

“stupid bush.....”

“We have socialized medicine, go to any emergency room if you're not a citizen. Stupid Shrub!”

“Well Nigal, you have to see how this round started:

“More bad news for the libbies" as this was "mission accomplished."

I wasn't a Bush hater in 2000. I didn't vote for him, but I didn't see much difference between Gore and Bush. I thought his daddy was highly competent and hoped for more of the same. Being in New Hampshire and getting a feel for the candidates, I did like McCain and Keyes better and better and Bush and Forbes less as the primary went on. (I disagreed with Keyes on most of what he said, but the guy was the most consistent, logical, and principled guy running and he had a great attitude. Even in Borat, he comes of looking like a stand up guy IMSC).

BTW: IMSC = In My Superiority Complex”

““Well Nigal, you have to see how this round started:

“More bad news for the libbies" as this was "mission accomplished."

I wasn't a Bush hater in 2000. I didn't vote for him, but I didn't see much difference between Gore and Bush. I thought his daddy was highly competent and hoped for more of the same. Being in New Hampshire and getting a feel for the candidates, I did like McCain and Keyes better and better and Bush and Forbes less as the primary went on. (I disagreed with Keyes on most of what he said, but the guy was the most consistent, logical, and principled guy running and he had a great attitude. Even in Borat, he comes of looking like a stand up guy IMSC).

BTW: IMSC = In My Superiority Complex”

Translation; backpeddle.”

“Any news on productivity levels?”

“Yes, production is way down. But strangely only for companies that employ TTers. Hmmmmm. LOL!”