Economy UP

“That’s why I say, I like every American I’m speaking with were ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the tax payers looking to bailout.

Ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health care reform that is needed to help shore up the economy– Oh, it’s got to be about job creation too. So health care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions.

And trade we’ve got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive scary thing. But 1 in 5 jobs being created in the trade sector today. We’ve got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation.

This bailout is a part of that.”

“Jeeez, Phaedrus, you know who that sounds like.........”

“Obama said in the last debate that there are not very many small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year.

How could he make such a statement and expect his economic plan to be taken seriously?”

“Because its true, Nancy.”

“Bullcrap, there are tons of 1 and 2 person small businesses that make under 250k. My barber, the guy who repairs my lawn mower, the record place down on main street,....Small towns are full of these type of businesses. They're part of what makes small town America great.”

“dh, I don't think bacpac was saying that there aren't many small businesses that make under $250,000. He was arguing against Obama's claim that there aren't many that are bigger than $250,000.”

“Yes, and Violin said that Obama said that because it's true..that there aren't many. I'm calling BS. I can think of many small businesses that make under 250k. I guess the question is are they asking if they gross or net under 250k?”

“OK, I reread the 250k thing and realize I royally screwed it up. Sorry about that. He said there aren't many small businesses that make more than 250k. Well, I guess that depends on what you define as small. I would define my company as small. We have 6 employees and make more than 250k. If we're not small then what are we? We're not a medium sized company. hyway, you're an engineer, would you agree that 5 engineers and 1 secretary is a small firm?”

“Okay, just define a small business as one that makes less than $250k and move on.”

“That's what I originally thought was stated. I contend there are lots of those businesses out there.”

“I could be wrong, but you could be missing the bigger picture here.

Dayhiker - perhaps you have a business which deals with life's essentials rather than people's discretionary spending, but for most small businesses it's not going to matter how much they're paying in taxes unless they get people coming back in through the door. You won't be paying taxes on money you don't have.

The problem here is that the customers who support these businesses are all struggling, and cutting back on spending.

Median incomes have actually declined in real terms in the past eight years, all at a time when the basic costs of living, housing, healthcare, gas, food, utilities, have all gone through the roof.

Unless we address this, then frankly we're all #&%!$ed.

The real power in the economy is the middle class. They consume 3/4 of goods and services.

The minority of small businesses earning over $250k are under far more threat from losing customers than they are from a minor increase in taxes.
last edited: 10/15/08 7:05:28 AM”

“SBA standards for "Small Business" depend on the type of businsess. For the most part, size standards are the average annual receipts or the average employment of a firm. If your business is mining and you have less than 500 employees, you are considered a small business. If you are a peanut farmer and earn less than $750,000, you are considered a small business. If you are a surveying and mapping firm and you make less than $7.5 million, you are considered a small business.

So bite me.”

“y2 - I don't disagree with what you're saying, but haven't a clue why you're saying it. I'm only pointing that that there are lots of small businesses in that size range.

kleetn - 7.5M for a surveying firm, wow, all the civil/surveying firms I know of are less than probably 1.5M in gross revenue.”

“Sorry then Dayhiker.

I'll direct that at anyone who suggests that Obama's tax plan would be so horrendous to small businesses.”

“I now see that strat's post is what got the 250k actually going. I haven't been reading mr cut and paste so I missed it. Maybe I should just shut up all together. It seems that y2 is really saying the tax cut won't hurt because you're already out of business. That's nice logic. What about folks teetering on the brink and taxes put you over the edge? The post is talking about income of 250k, not the amount hte business makes. I'll contend that there are lots of small business owners with that income range, who file pesonally because they're an LLC or similiar and who damn sure aren't rich. I know lots of people like that.”

“In highway construction the small business enterprise program is for companies that gross less than $1.5 million, excluding materials.

I would imagine that there are quite a few small businesses in the medical field that will make over $250K.

The question, once again, is his plan Net or Gross? It amazing that something as important, and as easily determined, as that hasn't been asked by the media, but they'll dig into the minutest detail of whatever plan McCain puts forward.”

“Study says most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes

WASHINGTON (Reuters) Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:54pm EDT - Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005. During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion.”

“I actually need to go and read his tax plan to see what level of reaming I'm about to receive. As an LLC, I don't pay corporate taxes because we cash out each year and pay it as personal taxes. I get the self employed bonus tax on top of regular income tax. More taxes will suck. Whatever extra taxes I have to pay will in turn be less money that I put back in the economy. It's really that simple.”

“From a small business perspective...
The reason they don't pay corporate taxes is that we dump profits at the end of the year. If I held the profit in the company I would pay corporate tax. Then, I'd pay myself a smaller bonus, and I'd get taxed on that too. If you dump it all as a bonus you pay once. If you hold it in, you pay 2x and I believe pay taxes on money that's already been taxed once before. This isn't some evil corporate plan to takeover the world. It's so that you get taxed once.
last edited: 10/15/08 7:42:54 AM”

“Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005. During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion.”
kleetn
8:39:24 AM
10/15/08

With the Fair Tax those taxes would have been collected.”

“It seems that y2 is really saying the tax cut won't hurt because you're already out of business.

Well if you were deliberately trying to read it the wrong way, then you could say that, yes.
last edited: 10/15/08 7:48:22 AM”

“More accurately I could be saying that we've put the middle class in a deep hole, and unless we start addressing how we're going to get them out of it, then we're all #&%!$ed.

Frankly the McCain plan to give all the breaks to the rich isn't going to work. A big reason we're in this mess is that trickle down has stopped working as a lot of big employers now ship jobs overseas.
last edited: 10/15/08 7:49:52 AM”

“Dow down 353 points”

“They're beginning to realize just how screwed the economy is.”

“Dayhiker, this is all you need to know about Obama and taxes for small business:


"It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance for success too," Obama responded. "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."


He'll take it from you and give it to someone else. Period. Anyone who tries to tell you different is lying.”

“"It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance for success too," Obama responded. "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."


He'll take it from you and give it to someone else. Period. Anyone who tries to tell you different is lying.�
tiltTilBLAM
7:58:05 AM
10/15/08


I wondered when one of the drones would carry this one over.

It's from a fox news clip where they cut obama off virtually in mid-sentence.

More desperation from the right.”

“Another thing about small businesses is that new ones fail at spectacular rates. Not every person who goes into business for themselves is going to succeed. As a taxpayer I don't want to prop them up with all the proposals in Obama's plan. Many fine workers turn out to be poor business people.”

“It seems that y2 is really saying the tax cut won't hurt because you're already out of business.

Well if you were deliberately trying to read it the wrong way, then you could say that, yes.
last edited: 10/15/08 9:48:22 AM�
Y2
9:45:26 AM
10/15/08

The edited version was nicer. Yes, I was being dramatic for effect, but in a way, that is what you conveyed. You're correct too. It would suck wind to own a small record store, to use my earlier example. My firm is pretty busy now, but our backlog is thin. We're likely working on jobs that were funded before the credit spigot got turned off. When it turns back on it may take 6 months for them to get to me again. Whatever cash I get at the end of the year will stay in my account because later in the spring, if the company runs out of cash, I get to be the bank back to the company since it's an LLC. Fun, fun.”

“I realized I was a little harsh there so I toned it down. ;o)

i think we're only starting to see the effects beginning now unfortunately.”

“This reminds me of a story...

Once upon a time, many years ago, when there was a raise in the minimum wage, the fella who owned the KFC next door to my pharmacy was cryin' the blues!

I asked him why... He said that he'd have to raise prices on his chicken in order to pay his employees... and he asked, rhetorically, "You don't wanna pay $20 for a bucket of chicken do you?"

I told him that wasn't going to happen... I told him that those people making minimum wage were doing so in part because they were not very good at managing their spending... that they were not the most economically savvy among us... I told him they wouldn't be investing their extra money wisely, rather they'd likely go out on payday and spend their extra money on a bucket of chicken... ...so his money would come back to him AND THEN SOME!

Well... at the end of that year he came in beaming! Was telling me this was the best year he ever had!! I asked him if he'd raised his prices in order to make these profits... He said, "No. Well, we did raise the price of our soda but only 10 cents or so..."

I reminded him of our little talk... and I think he actually may have seen some light...

For the most part, if you give the po' folk some money, they'll spend it. ...and it will rise back to the top of the stack... all the while creating a robust economy.

_____________________

Call it TRICKLE UP Economics if you want to...

Or maybe OBAMANOMICS :)”

“Here's the full exchange betwen Obama and the plumber. Couldn't be that the conservatives are trying to mislead you could it?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/10/spread-the-weal.html

I think it's interesting that they try to highlight this, when I think the entire exchange reflects well on Obama.

Obama said, "My attitude is that if the economy�s good for folks from the bottom up, it�s gonna be good for everybody. If you�ve got a plumbing business, you�re gonna be better off if you�re gonna be better off if you�ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody�s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it�s good for everybody."

That's the key moment McCain is jumping out�"when you spread the wealth around it's good for everybody."

"But listen," Obama said, shaking Wurzelbacher's hand, "I respect what you do and I respect your question, and even if I don�t get your vote, I�m still gonna be working hard on your behalf, because small businesses are what creates jobs in this country and I want to encourage it.�

"Guys I gotta get out of here and go prepare for the debate," Obama said, "but that was pretty good practice right there."”

“I'm sure there could not have been any other possible reasons for his increase in profits other than the raising of the minimum wage. I bet that guy bought a new mop that year. perhaps the new mop made his floor cleaner and shinier and that's why more people ate there.
last edited: 10/15/08 8:29:04 AM”

“There's much more to the exchange in the link.

He's talking specifically about his plan to give more tax breaks to the middle class and the fact that those earing more than $250k may have to pay a little more.”

“So using taxation to spread the wealth around isn't redistribution of wealth? and you wonder why most people ignore your "arguments"?”

“You can't stand losing can you Hyway. You appear to be in some sort of state of denial about things.

Both candidates are proposing tax cuts. It's just a question of whether they give them to 95% of Americans, or Exxon and the like.

Exxon needs a $4 billion tax break right?
last edited: 10/15/08 8:40:37 AM”

“Here's what's happening in my little corner of the globe as Jefferson County prepares to declare bankrupcy. This is the county that Birmingham is located in.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/news/economy/Birmingham_brink_Whitford.fortune/index.htm”

“y2, what makes you think obama won't raise taxes on everyone?

what a tool if you believe that!

oh, & news flash! You CAN'T give a tax cut to 95% of Americans. It's impossible!!

But, everything is possible with your Messiah, right?”

“Talking of losers......”

“It's crazy to me Dayhiker. Birmingham goes bankpupt after funding a renewal of the sewer system - while we spend billions rebuilding Iraqi infrastructure.”

“If Obama wins then Obama wins. My life will go on. I will make my living as will my wife. What doesn't change is what the redistribution of wealth is. Whether both candidates are doing it or not, the use of taxation to spread around wealth is the redistribution of wealth. I wasn't making a judgment call on whether it is good or not, just stating that what Obama said, even in your expanded version, is the redistribution of wealth. I don't know how you can deny that.”

“the loser is the FOOL who is gullible enough to believe Obama can do the impossible.”

“But then you're probably going down the flat sales tax route - which is kinda a different argument - certainly from the two main political candidates.

The tax system already redistributes wealth. It's just a question of where it moves it to.

So under those terms America has been socialist for a long long time - but it's a nice scare word to use.”

““the loser is the FOOL who is gullible enough to believe Obama can do the impossible.”
Hiker1984
6:54:13 AM
10/15/08

Replace Obama with Bush in that sentence and then keep wondering why people are down on the republicans.”

“Funny how the "redistribution of wealth" from the middle class to corporations through tax loopholes and other forms of corporate welfare is never a problem for some people. � It's only called that when somebody wants to close one of their loopholes. � Then it becomes Communism, Socialism or The Boogey Man.... � Robin Hood, � LOL”

“good grief, dayhiker, I've just started reading that article you linked. What a freaking boondoggle all around. The troubles there goes so far beyond the banking crisis its a wonder the mayor isn't sitting in jail. Not to mention how badly environmentalism has severely run the price up on that project.”

“Replace Obama with Bush in that sentence and then keep wondering why people are down on the republicans.”
Phaedrus
8:56:26 AM
10/15/08

Replace 'people' with 'Republicans'.

That's why I'm not a Republican.

Bush never promised an impossible 95% of people tax reduction, Obama did, loser!”

“Langford is now the mayor for Birmingham. He's allocated 500k for an Olympic search committe. He thinks we should have the Olympics in 2020. Who's going to pay for those buildings? Buy bonds, right? He did a laptop for kids program when he first took office. I'm not sure if the kids ever got the computers. He's pushing a domed stadium for B'ham. Folks say we can't afford it. He says we can't afford not to do it. They now call him beluga on the radio because he was quoted talking about the Atlanta Aquarium as saying something like, Atlanta has 2 beluga whales, we should have one too.... I think he also got caught pulling an Oprah's mom by running up a big clothing tab and then was shocked that someone actually wanted him to pay his bill.”

“This paragraph sums him up:

The man defies easy classification. To some he's a scoundrel who's been cavalier with the public trust ever since, as mayor of Fairfield, he built Visionland, an amusement park financed with $90 million in muni bonds and featuring a statue of himself near the entrance. Visionland soon went into Chapter 9. (If Jefferson County follows suit, it will be a rare and ignominious twofer for a public official.) He has also been through personal bankruptcy. "He is the most creative politician you've ever seen," says Langford's friend Jesse Lewis, publisher of the weekly Birmingham Times. "If he had to run a business by himself, he wouldn't do too good, in my mind. Larry will spend whatever money he has. He'll just spend it."”