Bush - Man of God?

“Listen, WK, I like you and all and I'm flattered, maybe even a bit curious......But no, I don't go that way.

And I know what this is really about. You're hurt that Nigal got Bison pregnant. I know what Nigal told you and I know it hurts but some men will say anything to get you in the sack.

Learn from your mistake and move on.”

“I think Bison is right on his interpretation of that provision - it does not call for a national ID. Techincally, that is not what it is. I would argue that it calls for a defacto national ID, since the federal government sets standards for the ID. Still, it is loose talk to call it a national ID. It is a national ID system, but not a national ID.

While I don't think it reasonable to call Bison stubborn on this point, I also don't see Baldwin as losing credibility over calling it a national ID. It's sloppy to do so, but not far from the truth.

The Bush administration seemed to have floated trial balloons about a national ID, then rejected the notion. What they substituted was a plan that provides all the privacy and social control threats of a national ID while still providing a fig leaf for the Bush boys to hide behind.


For conservative views on this check out:
http://www.eagleforum.org/alert/2002/national-id-7-17-02.shtml
http://www.drudgereport.com/id.htm4”

“On review:
Bison is totally unjustified in saying "Completely and utterly untrue, there is no such provision in the intelligence bill, none, zero, nada...

So is Chucky uninformed, misinformed, or downright ignorant? Or worse is his intention to purposefully mislead people?”
Bison
11:49:50 AM
12/20/04


Baldwin was not at all out of line. Bison can legitimately disagree, but it is just as reasonable (and probably more honest) to call it a national ID card. As the ultra-conservative Eagle Forum points out (linked above):

"A LICENSE TO LIVE, NOT DRIVE
The two basic keys to a national ID system are a unique identifier and linking databases. Driver's license standardization relies on these principles and achieves a national ID card through a bureaucratic back door.

Reps. Jim Moran (D-VA) and Tom Davis (R-VA) have introduced the "Driver's License Modernization Act of 2002" (H.R. 4633). H.R. 4633 requires driver's license standardization within five years. It also calls for standards for biometric identifiers embedded in the card and interoperability requirements permitting all levels of government and the private sector to access and store information on the card. The bill also links state motor vehicle databases. Senator Richard Durbin (D-IL) is also drafting a driver's license proposal."
last edited: 12/21/04 4:24:52 PM”

“Can I ask a stupid question?

What, exactly, does a national ID card have to do with religious belief?

Or gun rights?

I think these are fine issues to debate, but they have nothing to do with Jesus.

I would also note that there has been no change in laws governing abortion today. It hasn't been banned yet.

People should take a business approach to political activities. Support a candidate. Then, as their term progresses, check to see if the key issues are being addressed by the candidate. If not, vote for someone else.

So, religious people should keep a Bush scorecard.

Abortion - still legal
Separation of Church/State - still present
School Prayer - still illegal
Civil Unions - Bush supports
Christians in Africa - still dying

There was a big push to get the religious issues "out of the way" during the month after the election. They talk a big show, knowing that legislation won't start happening until January.

Religious people are mollified. Once January rolls around, they don't argue when all Bush does is work on social security and the tax code.

One final thing that religious conservatives should be VERY concerned about. The No Child Left Behind Act dramatically shifts school control away from local school boards towards the federal government. While this is fine right now, what happens when a Democrat or, say, John McCain takes over the presidency?

Do people really want Washington values controlling local schools?”

“But these measures come about overnight. There will continue to be a constant chipping away at these issues. Abortion is a prime example. Pick the areas that are the most dubious, ban it, then move onto the next step. It's a gradually revolution.”

“Yep. There is no free lunch, or even, milk!”

“There are really some strange ways of thinking around here.

A national ID card would be one issued under the auspices of and via standards set by the federal gov't. The intelligence bill creates no such thing. The federal gov't does not determine who gets a state ID or drivers licence or under what circumstances they are issued. It is totally and completely dishonest to call this provision an establishment of a national ID card, or a "backdoor" to one. It is nothing of the sort.”

“Bison....what's the difference between totally and completely? ("totally and completely dishonest") Damn...it must be pretty damn dishonest.

You're pretty worked up over this dude. Let it go ..... you don't think it's a national ID card and others disagree. Meanwhile, the Feds will be able to track you with these things. But NO...don't call it a national ID card.

Hey .....Bison wins another argument on a technicality. Yahoo!!!!! These weak minded libs lose again.”

“Isn't a social security card a national ID card?

How many people had to use that number for there drivers ID?”

“Not me.”

“Still, you need it for everything, yes? I believe one of the original ideas behind it was that it would be an "anonymous" form of ID.”

“I thought my Medicare card was my National ID Card.”

“What, exactly, does a national ID card have to do with religious belief?

In Apocalyptic Christain Churches (my term not theirs) it is taught that any number or marking system to determine identification is tantamount to the "mark of the Beast" as mentioned in Revelations. The logic used to justify this is strained and inconsistent as they seem to have no problem with Driver's licences or SSN.

I once worked with a Roman Catholic Deacon who renounced his U.S. citizenship and was legally declared a citizen of the Soveriegn State Of Missouri in order to not have a SSN because he considered a SSN to be a "Beast mark." Very strange view IMHO, he never satisfied my questions as to the hows and whys though. All it did was look like a convoluted way to avoid taxes to me.”

“Abortion - still legal
Separation of Church/State - still present
School Prayer - still illegal
reformed lurker
9:11:56 PM
12/21/04


glad abortion is still legal..womens decision not the govt's

glad separation of Church/State
govt does not to be involved in religious affairs. To spend tax dollars on a marriage bill/whatever he called it is wrong

prayer in school should be up to each person.”

“As far as I am aware prayer in school is legal but MANDATORY and/or COMPULSORY prayer is illegal. Huge difference when those words are added to the statement.

As long as schools give tests there will be prayer in school.
last edited: 12/22/04 10:14:31 AM”

“Oh Oh, the abortion thing is going to make this thread explode.”

“STEM CELL RESEARCH NOW!”

“agree!”

“STAY OUT OF HER WOMB!


IF YOU DON'T LIKE ABORTION DON'T GET ONE!”

“Anyone see the article on wired.com today about a new stem cell removal technique that they say doesn't kill the cell?”

“IF YOU DON'T LIKE ABORTION GET A VESECTOMY!”

“nope, but I will check it out. Thanks”

“why does killing or not killing the cell have anything to do with it?”

“Magnet - "cell"?

Check these videos out ... http://www.layyous.com/ultasound/ultrasound_video.htm”

“Because most folks still equate the "death" of a cell to the death of a child.

If you remove that arguement then you remove a ton of opposition.

Like most other things acceptance and approval is all about how you market it.”

“Are those your baby pictures, Sarge? You're cute.

One does not abort to harvest stemcells. Keep that in mind, K?

Back in the day, I recall Stem Cells collected from the cord.”

“Case in point.
last edited: 12/22/04 10:31:25 AM”

“Oops.

Where do these people get there edumecation?
last edited: 12/22/04 10:28:56 AM”

“I didn't know you were talking about stem cell research. The thread on this page refers to abortion.

Nice attempt at an insult, though Bearmagnet.”

“We can talk about abortion as a separate flame from stem cells if you want.

Insult? I'm being serious. I guess I'm in a mood. Anyone that equates death of a cell with death of a child is a moron.

Are we in Fuego?
last edited: 12/22/04 10:34:35 AM”

“Come to think of it ... there were many more references to abortion than stem cells (I counted two references) on this whole thread.
last edited: 12/22/04 10:35:39 AM”

“If you don't have a problem with murder don't complain when it happens to people in other stages of development... say adults.”

“Anyways - those videos are interesting. Should be required viewing for people who want an abortion.”

“Sarge - if you follow the discussion after the last post on pg1 you will see we were in the midst of stem cell talk.

You responded to my stem cell question in regards to HPM stem cell post.”

“Magnet - I see that. That has nothing to do with my "edumacation". On THIS page (without flipping through everything) that was not evident since you only referenced abortion. My mistake. Whatever.”

“Bison! Love ya man! I have a problem with murder and people who like to redefine murder!

Sarge - people should be required to watch propoganda? Interesting.”

“Propoganda???

Ultrascans are propoganda?

I thought you were an advocate of education?”

“Then stop taking "edumacation" so personally.”

“Back to the question.

How are ultrasound scans "propoganda"?”

“You're right. I was just put off by your suggestion that someone be required to watch a video because they want an abortion.

Then again, maybe it's not such a bad idea?

Maybe we should have people who want to join the military watch videos of field medics in action or field surgeons in action?”

“Zlow down, Sarge!”

“right ... or suicide bombers attacks our buildings ... or innocent people being fed to the lions (ref: Uday/Qusay), or women being raped in front of their children ...

good idea - The soldiers should be exposed to the whole truth.”

“Yes! We should make video watching a national requirement!

You want a job? watch the video.
You want to go to a bar? Watch the video.
You want to step outside? Watch the video.

We're going to need some kind of sign off record and a file of what everyone has watched.

I remember in Sunday school watching abortion videos. Kind of pissed me off. I was so happy to walk away at age 13 when I wa confirmed.
last edited: 12/22/04 10:51:52 AM”

“Hey Sarge - I take it back. I took a quick look at those photo's before, didn't really examine them until now.

Now I can conclude those photo's are nothing more than propogand Bull#&%!$.

I won't get into a complex issue about how "happy" doesn't happen in the womb.

Let's talk about drinking and eating.

What is the purpose of labeling those photo's like that?”

“Truth can be painful.

Is that like when you walked away from the Intelligent Design discussion? ;)”

“You are referencing the captions as being propoganda. The videos themselves are not.

The captions are meant to be humorous. I think that's pretty evident, maybe you missed that.
last edited: 12/22/04 11:01:30 AM”

“Truth can be painful, yes. But that is not the reason they showed abortion videos to children. I don't recall being allowed to watch anything else like that at that age.

I do recall my mom trying to shield me from truths such as death, like seeing a family member in a coffin. But abortion videos were OK?

That, plus a whole assortment of reasons is why I would never marry a Catholic.

I can watch any medical procedure now.

I usually walk away b/c I have other things to do or I get bored. Or someone doesn't understand the point I'm trying to make.

You can call the captions humorous. That's your opinion and I can not argue with opinion. My opinion is that they are propoganda, an attempt at tugging on emotional strings.”

“OK - I see why people were quick to call Bison stubborn here. Mea Culpa.”

“Bush White House's Christ-less Christmas

Official commemorations emphasize Santa, Rudolph over Jesus in 2004

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

WASHINGTON – What's virtually missing from the White House commemoration of Christmas this year?

Jesus.

The little baby in the manger.

The reason for the season.

While President Bush was re-elected last month in an election victory many attributed to an outpouring of support by evangelical Christians impressed with his candid outspokenness about his faith, some Americans notice the White House website lacks even a single mention of Jesus, whose birth is celebrated by hundreds of millions worldwide Dec. 25.

The official White House site proclaims this as the "Season of Merriment and Melody" – not the birth of the Savior of the world.

"Throughout the world, the holiday season is greeted by joyful music that brightens hearts and evokes wonderful memories," reads the message. "This year's theme brings to the White House the magic of holiday songs that have been favorites for generations of Americans."

Among the website's many photographs of secular decorations is a shot of a creche, or Nativity, displayed in the East Room, but the baby Jesus is virtually invisible.

The White House has not responded to WND's request for comment.

The White House residence, the site proclaims is decorated with "delightful vignettes illustrating many of the best-loved songs of the season."

Not one of those songs is a traditional spiritual carol or hymn. Instead, the songs listed include "We Wish You a Merry Christmas," "Here Comes Santa Claus," "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus," "All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth," "Upon the Housetop," "Blue Christmas," "Jingle Bells," "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree," White Christmas," "Frosty the Snowman, "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and "Marshmallow World."

In fact, even the word Christmas is only used in song titles and as an adjective – such as before the word tree.

<snip>”

“He doesn't love baby Jesus anymore?”