Bush - Man of God?

“I hate to be disrespectful and all but I do believe TrailTurd just may be the dumbest son of a bltch I've ever seen...and I've seen my share! LOL!”

“>There you go twisting my words. It’s not
>the medals that was important. It was the
>LYING about the medals

He didn't lie about anything about the medals out of his own mouth. FOX News and Mat Lauer said he did, but he didn't.

And it's a pointless issue. I have never meat a politician that didn't dodge / weave / misrepresent. In fact, it's in the job description. I don't even know that I would recommend a politician not lie. The job of a politician is to get legislation through for a particular policy.

It's the policies of Jr. that I have an issue with, and always will.”

“>“Nice try turtle. None of those links
>contained a statement from a person who knew
>Bush and said he used cocaine. Keep looking.”

LOL. Now you are lying, quite pointedly and directly.

It was impossible for you to click on and read every link listed in the few seconds between my posting and your response.

You are as bad as what you accuse Kerry of mate. ;)”

“> “Better yet, be man enough to admit that
> you are wrong and that you have no evidence
>to support your lies.”

As a matter of course, I don't lie, not intentionally anyway. Don't have to.”

“LOL! Not sure but maybe you have to be a certain height to be a stormtrooper?

Do you think this cop paid for his mocha-latte grande raschocolate cappucino?


”

“But, if I'm wrong, I'll certainly admit it. I'm not a Republican.

I do believe Jr. did cocaine, abused alcohol, got a DUI, and dodged service during Vietnam. I have friends that have known Bush family for years and they've never denied these things to me either and they are usually quite straight about.

Now, does it matter to me? No. Who knows, everyone seems to have done some kind of drugs back then. I'd put a good likelihood that maybe Kerry was tripping out on LSD when he got back, definitely pot use. I don't know anyone that will deny some kind of drug use back then who was of age.

It doesn't matter to me.

The *policies* matter to me. Not ribbons & cocaine, which consumed 95%+ of the headlines. But, that's the nature of the beast. People care more about 'winning' than they care about getting policy right.

For what it's worth, I voted for Jr. in 2000 also, so I am partly responsible for the mess we are in. I voted for Kerry in 2004. Jr.'s been big disappointment to me.

I admire his leadership, tenacity, and ability to get things done. The problem is that he's doing all the wrong things. If we undid every single decision he's made since he got to office, we'd have sizeable government surpluses.”

“Bear! I can't read the thread!”

“Sorry, WK. I was being ignore so harsher tactics were required.

Long Live The DCLF!”

“LOL. Now you are lying, quite pointedly and directly.

It was impossible for you to click on and read every link listed in the few seconds between my posting and your response.

You are as bad as what you accuse Kerry of mate. ;)”
TrailTurtle
1:20:07 PM
1/05/05

I am not lying. None of those links contain such a statement, because none exists.

Not only are you a liar, but you falsely accuse me of lying.

What a choad.”

“> None of those links contain such
> a statement, because none exists.

Well, maybe not a lie, but you *believe* something, and spout as truth something, that you are showing no provable interest in actually verifying for yourself.

Maybe you believe "no statement exists", but that is something that is impossible to prove, and impossible to believe. I would never say such a thing because it is unprovable.

But I did hop into my own links and the first or second said there is a statement indicating:

[Jr.] has not done cocaine or other hard drugs between the ages of 28 and the present.

It's admirable that our president hasn't done any hard drugs for the last few decades, but any material statement that does not falsify a given theory is supportive of it.

It is called risky testing. A question has arisen as to whether Jr. has done cocaine, they asked him about it, and they said he's been clean since 28.

That statement is supportive of the claim he did cocaine prior to age 28, and in fact, means the theory is more likely to be true, because, given the opportunity to falsify the theory, they didn't.
last edited: 1/05/05 1:42:58 PM”

“> Again, prove it. The time for liberal
> talking points and catch phrases is over.
> Prove it.

BTW, it's impossible to prove *anything*.

The best one can hope for is a large set of material evidence that supports a given theory and no contradictory material evidence that falsifies it.

There is both for all of the things I've claimed. None of the things I've said are 'proven', nor do I claim as much.

I don't believe that, really, anything can be 'proven'. But then again, it's not entirely proven that 1+1=2 (one rain drop plus one rain drop still equals one rain drop ;) ).

I have theories and beliefs for which there is a lot of material evidence that supports them, and very little that contradicts them.

Everything I have said, to the best of my knowledge remains unfalsified, and supported by what we do know.
last edited: 1/05/05 1:57:38 PM”

“I believe this story because there have been many allegations from people who knew him at the time
TrailTurtle
1:02:50 PM
1/05/05

You should be able to prove this statement you made. If it were true it would be possible, even easy. If it is not true then it would be impossible to prove.

Check your facts, if you ever get any.”

“Well, given that you are obviously an expert Bush-lackey rebuttaler I'm sure you are ready to spout Karl Rove's provided retaliations, but this one provides three independent witnesses:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1887128840/103-7897189-0699862?v=glance

As to their credibility, who knows.

The allegations exist, Jr. has never denied them, and anyone I know who is pro-Bush and in-the-know hasn't denied it either.

However, my own belief that he did coke is Bush's own statements on the issue. No better source than himself. And again, doesn't matter. I mentioned this only in passing and you picked up on it, apparently seeking to "disprove" it. You may seek in creating enough doubt for yourself to not believe you support a coke-fiend, but Jr. himself has never denied any of this.

I don't care.

If Kerry did coke when 26 while dodging of Vietnam, I would've still voted for Kerry.

The creepiest thing about Kerry to me is why DID he go to Vietnam. Why did he actually serve in that idiot's war? I've always chalked that up to a desire for experiences.

It's also probable he did want to be a politician from a young age and was told you have to have military service to be electable.

The little thing no one told him at the time however, is you have to have both military service... *AND* be a Christian.

LOL.

(BTW - Someone who says they are a pro-Bush Christian to me... that is a character flaw... Jesus was a humanitarian and never would've supported cluster bombing cities... pro-Bush Christians are walking hypocrits, but not all Christians are... about 50% of the people in the protest groups were church groups, not kidding... little undisclosed fact that never makes the news).
last edited: 1/05/05 2:21:53 PM”

“TT - you'll come to know that the righties on this board never actually provide anything to back up their arguments. They just know GW is perfect - they feel it inside. They will then start using terms like "dumb liberals". Some may even claim to have "life experience." ;op”

“And to use a quote: "They get their panties in a wad" when anyone dare suggest that George has lied.”

“Oh, I know. They have their "one true leader", LOL.

I actually believe that they support Jr. more because they have suffered in the process of defending him than for any other reason.

The way all leaders that have very devout followings are created is through the followers suffering at the hand of the defense of their leaders.

It's kind of sadomasachistic, and quite humorous.


And for what it's worth, I'm not accusing Jr. of lying. I don't think he actually did. I am saying I believe he did cocaine, got a DUI, abused alcohol, and dodged Vietnam. I don't know that I have a problem with any of this. I do have a problem with the fact that he supported Vietnam, while dodging it, and that he's doing the same to others today... and his family, friends, & payees are profiting grotesquely from it.
last edited: 1/05/05 2:28:27 PM”

“Well I'm not so much worried about that stuff either. It's the whole pack of lies told about Iraq that get me. Either they knew there no WMDs and lied about it to garner support for a war which otherwise would not have been backed by congress and the public - or they made such a monumental mistake costing thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives, and they deserve to be called on it.
They certainly lied about the motives for war anyway as they knew America wouldn't back them if they told the truth.

I believe this administration thinks it's ok to lie in defence of the greater good. This may be ok in one or two instances as have happened in the past - but they crossed the line on this one. They will continue to lie to create their vision of America, and the less bright of the voters will continue to buy it as long as it's dressed up as "national security" - or "morality".
Keep Americans scared enough and they'll buy anything you tell them.
last edited: 1/05/05 2:37:09 PM”

“I've got enough plastic sheeting to cover my 10 story building! Hope it keeps them thar bio-weapons out!”

“I dunno. I think they THOUGHT Saddam had WMD and really believed it. And the basis of that belief might have been, purely, that they had convinced themselves that Saddam was "evil" and he couldn't possible be telling the truth. Or, more probably, that we have the invoices as we sold him most of the stuff (just like we are now doing with Allawi).

As to myself, Saddam got himself an exemption from the invasion when he showed willingness to work with U.N. and began destroying missiles to avert an invasion.

That falsified the "Saddam=Hitler" theory for me.

It is funny to note that a similar occurrence like this occurred in Hitler's actual history. Hitler wanted to invade Poland because he said Poland's leadership was evil and a security threat to Germany. Hitler went to the League of Nations to get permission but failed, he then consequently withdrew from the League of Nations and dismissed it as 'irrelevent'. The parallels here are interesting. This is not saying Jr.=Hitler. Jr. hasn't withdrawn from the U.N. for instance, and I believe it is an error to trust that history repeats itself, as in the process, you might actually influence events to cause history to repeat itself, LOL.

But, we do know, for certain, that Saddam had at least the formula for VX in a notebook somewhere. We also know that we sold him milling machines and lots of other stuff to make nukes.

What is very concerning to me is that, post war, the weapons inspectors went to the sites that we installed this stuff at, and found them to be empty... all the heavy equipment, the milling machines for nukes... Where is that stuff?

That is very concerning to me.

But, if we get nuked, I dunno, not the end of the world I suppose. 10k-100k people dead? We are creating 1 million new people a year, won't even be a rounding error.

The financial issues with the deficits & spending are much much bigger issue.

Biggest 'security' issue we have in my opinion.
last edited: 1/05/05 2:53:59 PM”

“Well I agree that they thought there was something there, but I think they made the decision to emphasise the threat to achieve their other goals - in the end over-emphasising. Is that lying? Up to individuals to decide. Of course now saying the reason for invading was to spread "freedom" and telling you that terrorists "hate Americans because they're free" is a complete lie.
But it's all good in GW's America.”

“Yeah, I agree with you, definitely. It's called 'justificationism'.

They use one widely held belief to justify all kinds of other actions and say it's related.

What is most humorous about this is that the thing they chose (WMD) as the basis for the justification for all these other kinds of things has turned out to be so materially false.

Welp, they are about to vote for ANOTHER $100 Billion in throw-away money.

Bush and anti-Bush alike, we are all going to be paying the tab, and if the CBO is right, we (all of us) are going to see taxes unlike anything we've ever seen before in the country's entire history as a result.

The pro-Bush hate taxes crowd that is largely middle-class is going to get it's ass handed to it financially over next 10-20 years as we try and figure out way out of this financial mess.

The Internet bailed us out of Reagan/Bush Sr. nightmare spending.

I doubt the Internet will happen "twice".

And worse, Jr.'s spending far exceeds Reagan and Bush Sr.
last edited: 1/05/05 3:03:29 PM”

“TT - you'll come to know that the righties on this board never actually provide anything to back up their arguments. They just know GW is perfect - they feel it inside. They will then start using terms like "dumb liberals". Some may even claim to have "life experience." ;op”
y2
2:21:12 PM
1/05/05

Do you have an example of this?”

“Until, turtle can back up his claims that several of Bush's aquaintances cite his cocaine use, this conversation is pointless.”

“http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/08/20/president.2000/bush.drug/
Bush's statements in this sotry make it pretty clear that he did use drugs in his youth. Not that there's anythign wrong with that.”

“The Texas governor is the only major presidential candidate who has not answered the question about whether he has ever used cocaine.

Later, an aide clarified the remarks, saying Bush has not used illegal drugs in at least the last 25 years.

"I've told the American people that years ago I made some mistakes. I've learned from my mistakes and should I be fortunate enough to become president I will bring dignity and honor to the office," said Bush”

“I snorted cocaine but didn't inhale.”

“It's funny how conservatives demonized junkies and draft-dodgers for years and years.....

Then they shoe-horned a combination of the two into the Oval Office... and now they worship at his feet.

-- Too Weird By Half --


I guess as long as they get their tax cuts, nothing else matters (?).”

“So BBW, imagine you're running for office, I ask you, if you've ever taken Cocaine. if you haven't you can simply say no. But instead of this you go on about having made some mistakes.... this would infer something huh?”

“I have used cocaine. I have admitted to it on this board. That is why I am conviced that the President did not. If I were running for President and said I did not use drugs, there would be a line of people calling me a liar. The President does not have a line, because he did not do a line.

Turtle's preaching of lies and half truths is what I have come to expect from Liberals. Would it kill them to have a fresh perspective? Options that work? No, half truths and lies is all we get.”

“Here's another bit of weird for ya: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6790738/”

“bbw, I read more than 150 newspapers a day (you can to, check out http://www.bloglines.com).

You can assume everything I am saying is lies, or you can research it for yourself to see if what I am saying is the truth. It doesn't matter much to me, LOL. I am intellectually honest by my own judgement, and that's the highest bar anyone will ever have for me.”
TrailTurtle
1:04:59 PM
1/05/05


Some friendly advice.... Don't believe everything you read.”

“>Some friendly advice.... Don't believe
>everything you read.

Even better advice for you:

Don't discard hard material observation just because it contradicts what you want to be the truth. LOL.”

“That is not good advice. It is a cop out. Hard material observation? I think you made that up. The facts don't fit so you fill in the blanks?

Still waiting on your list of witnesses. You said there were a bunch. It is very simple. Find one.

If you can't find one, then your 'Hard material observation' theory is not enough. In fact it is one of the reasons liberals are not take seriously.

Hard material observation:-) I am going to remember that. Very funny.”

“While you are working on your hard material observation here are some more facts.

President Bush was never charged with being AWOL. No one in the Alabama Guard ever said that he was.

He was accused by the media and the circus begins. How can you liberals expect to be taken seriously when time and time again you are suckered into believing every internet blog or 'journalist' with an axe to grind?

Work on the hard facts, not the 'Hard material observation'. Maybe the facts are too hard.”

“BBW - that's why he didn't say no. Saying he hasn't used for 25-years directly implies that he did before that. It would also depend on how publically he used. With a well-known father it's probably that he was at least slightly discreet.
I read many newspapers a day. It's difficult to see how the direct quote in the CNN story could be taken out of context.

And there's no way to tell a Cocaine user. I've always been surprised to see just who uses and who didn't.
Also Bush has his religious conversion. He's a v different person now to how he was then.”

“Is that your 'Hard material observation'? It certainly is not proof. Proof is something else.

You have been duped.”

“I have not killed anyone since I was 28.

Does that make me a murderer?”

“I actually believe that they support Jr. more because they have suffered in the process of defending him than for any other reason.
TrailTurtle
2:24:03 PM
1/05/05

You really meant to say Bill Clinton and Democrats didn't you?

The term apologist is not universal. It is a term coined to descibe the morally responsible people defending the immoral behavior of their leader. They know what he did was wrong, but they defended him anyway.

I support the President, because I believe he is doing the right thing. Killing terrorists is my policy. I think the President made a mistake by not not going into Falusia sooner and killing more of them. I don't defend his actions.

I think the President needs to move another Regiment of Marines into Iraq to kill more of the bastards.”

“I already posted the source on the witnesses, read back. Go argue with the author, or W. for that matter.

Even your 'hero' Jr. doesn't support your view that he never did coke. You said you once did coke. Are you sure you still aren't? LOL.

Actually... this kind of makes sense. If you once were a cocaine user, of COURSE you are going to be defending another cocaine user.

That's why you identify with him.

Or do you admire Jr. for 'kicking the habit' (if he has... we require our athletes to pass drug tests but not the president, LOL).

That would make sense. Or maybe you just get off on killing poor people? Like being a bully so long as you don't have to be the guy getting shot at don't you? When are you suiting up and shipping out?

The U.S. Military definitely needs more of your kind to be cannon fodder for United Defense.
last edited: 1/05/05 9:30:04 PM”

“Actually you did not. You provided some links to a book and a google search that did not support your accusations. Not a single name of a person who said the President used cocaine. No one who saw him do coke? We split an 8 ball? He asked me for a dollar bill? I was at a party and everyone was doing coke?

Not one, nada, nothing.

No one comes forward and says, I did a line with the president? I sold his roomate some coke? He had white powder on his nose?

Your 'hard material observation' has not produced anything.

You are nothing more than a parrot for the liberal spin machine.”

“Naah BBW, you prefer to sit here back in the states and let poor 18 year old kids who have been cut off financial aid and can't afford to go to college do the dying for your delight don't you? Just like Jr.

Yep, you think he is like you don't you? Cocaine, alcohol abuse, war-dodging bully.

BBW, you think he's just like you don't you?

That's why you like him. LOL. You want to be Jr. don't you? I hate to tell you but you aren't him, never will be. Why? Because you've been scammed BBW. Jr. and daddy and Jeb, and Neal are all laughing at you and the fact that you helped him get re-elected.

Why are they laughing? Because YOU are the guy who's going to be paying the money he's stealing BBW. You'll #&%!$ about taxes and everything else for the remainder of your days. You'll blame Democrats, you'll blame bad economics, you'll always find someone to blame, ... except for yourself.

Because he's just like you BBW isn't he?

LOL, so you think.
last edited: 1/05/05 9:50:12 PM”

“Anyway, this is pointless.

It doesn't mean anything because we'll still all be paying the highest taxes in all of American history if the C.B.O. projections hold out.

It's either that, we get lucky and have something as big as the Internet happen again , or America defaults with all the related problems like Russia.
last edited: 1/05/05 9:52:37 PM”

“That would make sense. Or maybe you just get off on killing poor people? Like being a bully so long as you don't have to be the guy getting shot at don't you? When are you suiting up and shipping out?

The U.S. Military definitely needs more of your kind to be cannon fodder for United Defense.
last edited: 1/05/05 9:30:04 PM”
TrailTurtle
9:22:34 PM
1/05/05

My son is on active duty in the Marine Corps. I served in the Marine Corps. My Father served in the Army. My Grandfathers served in the Army.

Killing poor people is not the issue.

Liberals like you who think passing out lies and faux challenges as a righteous substitute for combat is a joke.

Now how about some hard evidence on the issues you are trying to avoid?”

“Jeez, that's even worse. Letting your son do it.

Did you encourage him to join the military?”

“Did you give up on finding evidence of your false accusations?
last edited: 1/05/05 10:07:23 PM”

“Your 'Hard Material Observations' aren't going to cut it. Your personal attacks are not going to prove your point. In fact they blew up in your face.”

“I've said all I am going to say about cocaine. It's a non-issue. If you want me to say he didn't do cocaine, I won't say that because I don't know for certain, although I have not seen the theory falsified that he did. And you don't know that he didn't either. And regardless, I don't care if Jr. did cocaine or not, although if he is still doing it, that would explain a lot.

I am definitely interested in knowing if you encouraged your son to join the military?

I do not mean that as a personal attack, and I apologize if the question has offended you. I am really just curious about the answer to be honest.
last edited: 1/05/05 10:10:28 PM”

“If you apologize for spreading false truths about the President and admit that you were wrong and that you do not have the evidence you claimed to have, I will answer the question regarding my attitude towards my son joining the military.”

“Well, I'm not spreading 'false truths'. I don't even believe firmly in 'truth' as a concept. We only know that which remains unfalsified. At any given time, new information can arrive that shows something someone thinks to be false.

You simply have not understood what I have said regarding my views on this subject, which are:

- Jr. has said he hasn't done cocaine for 25 years.
- Public statements indicate "no cocaine or heavy drug use since he was 28".
- There is a book out listing 3 independent witnesses that he did cocaine.
- Valid points as to the credibility of the witnesses has been raised.
- People I know personally who are close with the Bush family have not even tacitly challenged the notion that he has done cocaine.
- Jr. was grounded from flight duty during the same time frame and has refused to release the medical records indicating why he was grounded.

The above is what I have said, along with "I believe he did cocaine". My belief in such does not make it a fact, it is only my best effort to balance what is hard fact and what is fantasy. I will be more specific to my beliefs

--"The cocaine use by Jr. theory has been suggested & alleged and Jr. has never denied it. Further, he has refused to release records that would disprove the theory."--

I can not say what you want me to say, specifically "Jr. never did cocaine." Especially not in light of the available information.

This is all I will say on the issue, and my best read on it is that the knowledge we have suggests cocaine usage, and I did (regretfully) vote for him in 2000 even knowing this, so I don't fit into your "liberal" stereotyping.”