Bush - Man of God?

“Well, I'm not spreading 'false truths'. I don't even believe firmly in 'truth' as a concept
TrailTurtle
10:18:22 PM
1/05/05

That pretty much says it all.”

“You forgot this part ;)

We only know that which remains unfalsified. At any given time, new information can arrive that shows something someone thinks to be false.

Believing in 'truth' implies disregarding that new information could enter the picture that shows something to be false.

In the case of Jr.'s cocaine usage that has not occurred, but I don't discount that it couldn't.

Based on everything I know, the "Bush is a coke user" theory has not been falsified. If it is (ever), I will be the first to admit it.
last edited: 1/05/05 10:25:47 PM”

“I believe this story because there have been many allegations from people who knew him at the time
TrailTurtle
1:02:50 PM
1/05/05

You made this statement too.

You have been duped into believing a lie. You knew that there were holes in the theory so you made something up to fill in the blanks.

There is no evidence and no proof the the President ever used cocaine. There is no proof for many of the lies the left has told.”

“They are in the book, but good points have been made as to their credibility.

Anyway, I do sincerely hope your son comes back in one piece, is mentally stable, doesn't beat his wife and abuse his children, for their sake.

Have a wonderful evening!”

“A cheap shot at a young American Marine serving his country during time of war from a liberal scumbag like yourself says everything about your character.

FU”

“Not a cheap shot, not meant personally at all. It's a fact that if he doesn't get hurt he is at a very high risk to abuse his wife verbally or mentally, abuse his children, and abuse alcohol, or drugs. He is also at an elevated risk of suicide for the remainder of his life.

Not all have these effects however. Amazingly (or scarey?), 50% seem to come back completely whole human beings that are completely unaffected by the experience.

I also disagree it is a "time of war". Congress has not declared war.

Iraq is not a 'war', it is an armed occupation, slaughter, and robbery for Exxon, UDI, KBR, and Halliburton profits.

It's not inconceivable some good could come out of it, however, we do need the oil, and any true Democracy means they are going to vote to nationalize the oil. This is an immensely difficult problem.

How do you get people to consent to being robbed while making them think they are free?

LOL.
last edited: 1/05/05 10:53:17 PM”

“You really have no clue. You are all about something you read in your 150 newspapers a day on the internet.

Your credibility is nil.

You make a deliberate cheap shot at my son and every American, because you can't admit you made a mistake.

Get some life/death experience and stop posing as an expert on issues you know nothing about.”

“I do read a lot, but my opinions about Iraq are mostly shaped by the Iraqis themselves and what they say and they want.

FOX News doesn't put every day Iraqis on T.V. very much, LOL, so no, I doubt you'd understand their views. Doesn't matter too much though right, because you've got 'experience'? When I start hearing Iraqis cheering America for all the good that's been done, my views will change, probably over night.

But that's not what Iraqis are talking about.

Do you know what is the hot topic among the Iraqis is right now?

The doctors have reported a lot of bodies in Fallujah that have no outward physical injuries or bullets.

The hot topic among Iraqis is they believe Bush used chemical weapons in Fallujah.

They've got lots of pictures also, pretty convincing stuff. I don't know what killed those people but they've made a strong case it wasn't conventional / force based.

Ask your son if he's heard of the use of any non-conventional weapons in Fallujah...
last edited: 1/05/05 11:12:27 PM”

“Naah BBW, you prefer to sit here back in the states and let poor 18 year old kids who have been cut off financial aid and can't afford to go to college do the dying for your delight don't you? Just like Jr.

Yep, you think he is like you don't you? Cocaine, alcohol abuse, war-dodging bully
TrailTurtle
9:44:34 PM
1/05/05

You don't even know any Iraqi's do you? How could you possibly know what the hot topic is? You don't.

Why don't you follow your own advice and go to Iraq instead of trying to bully your way around your keyboard regurgitating something you read on the internet. You need to stop looking for conspiracies that don't exist and get some real life perspective.”

“The answer is obvious from here, Yes!

http://www.whitehouse.org/”

“BBW - not directly, but if I'd asked you if you ever had killed anyone, and you hadn't - you wouldn't answer "I've not killed anyone since I was 28." - you would just say no - especially if in a situation where it would effect your political future.”

“Quote of the day: Re: nukes, it wouldn't even be a rounding error....Trail Turtle.”

“How old is bbw?”

“18 going on 95.”

“So he can still kill or does he have to wait until he's 28 to kill?”

“I think BM is getting the drift of the logic at play here.”

“If I am than I'm skeering myself.”

“>You don't even know any Iraqi's do you? How
>could you possibly know what the hot topic is?
>You don't.

Well, yes, I do. I read a significant number of blogs, and there is a forum "Chat the World" I've attended several times with Iraqis, and yes, the ones I see think this way, they also think we are hypocrits, and I've never seen a single Iraqi that doesn't think we are there for the oil.

Try reading some of their blogs yourself:

Raed In The Middle
http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/
Baghdad Burning
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Salam Pax
http://dear_raed.blogspot.com
A Family In Baghdad
http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com/
Al Muajaha
http://www.almuajaha.com/
Majid
http://me-vs-myself.blogspot.com/
Khalid
http://secretsinbaghdad.blogspot.com/
Iraqi Spirit
http://iraqispirit.blogspot.com/
Healing Iraq
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
Nationalist Kurdish Blogger
http://kurdo.blogspot.com/

Blogs by Iraqis and people from the region now in the US:
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://iraqibloggers.blogspot.com/

Blogs By Internationals In Iraq:
Dahr Jamail
http://blog.zmag.org/iraqdispatches/
Empire Notes
http://www.empirenotes.org/
Wildfire
http://wildfirejo.blogspot.com/
http://www.wildfirejo.org.uk/feature/list/iraq/index.php

Blogs About Iraq:
Back To Iraq
http://www.back-to-iraq.com/

And you can also read Al Jazeerah which is all lies right?

Link-TV available on Dish Network and Direct-TV has this program called "Mosaic" which summarizes all the arab news from the different countries, including Israelis state-run news network.

These are the sources I base my views on, it's their perspective.

I'll watch FOX News and then Mosaic-Middle Eastern News.

Do you want to know what the wild thing is? I find the arab news sources to be fairer to Bush than FOX is to them, LOL.

And that is the truth.

Of course, ahh yes, this is all lies and propaganda, and FOX News and Clear Channel (both of whom need the Bush admin to keep backing out communications laws to create the cable and radio monopolies they want) is the gospel truth, LOL.

I understand Bill Gates, after paying $12 million to be exempted from anti-trust laws, just called all his small business competitors 'communists' as well, LOL.

Looks like the circle is about complete.

You'll call me a liar BBW, and spreading false truths. I won't call you that. Why? Because you believe what you believe and believe anyone who has a perspective other than yours is 'evil' or immorale or something. They think the same about you.

As to myself it's just about money, only killing and slaughtering people for money is not a business model I agree with, as per my own ethics. I'm not okay with it. You appear to be, that's your ethics model, only you won't admit it... why, because they are 'evil', LOL.

But then... you won't define 'evil' because if you do, you know it means you'll be indicting the then same people you support.

It is a fact that Bush Sr.'s acquisition in 1997 of United Defense (which supplies all the infantry gear in Iraq) would be in bankruptcy today without a long bloody infantry war.

And so your son... yes, he's cannon fodder for UDI's bottom line.

Those people aren't 'evil'. Despite my best efforts, I have searched high and low to find a clear definition of 'evil' and I've never found it. Bush has adopted 70-80% of Hitler's political tactics, and so no one could call Bush 'good' and Hitler 'evil', unless, of course, they would choose not to provide a definition of what those terms mean.”

“If I nail the Persian UC Hottie can I say Iraqied a Persian?”

“"I don't see a clear idenity. After the past election hopefully we learned that just being different than the current will not get any votes. How is that any more than a side show of the current party?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This question is concerning the Greens and Libertarians joining forces.

I think in terms of policies and idealogy, it represents a pretty dramatic break from both parties. Frankly, I don't think the Democratic party is a very environmentally centric party, and the Republicans certainly aren't.

An environmentally sound platform that also supports limited federal government is the complete antithesis of what we have today.

Legalization of marijuana (lots of good reasons for this one), fiscal responsibility, foreign policies we can afford, lower taxes and progressive crime and rehabilitation policies.

Sounds like a step in the right direction to me.
last edited: 1/06/05 3:04:48 PM”

“I was in Knox county for ten years, now I'm in Germantown, on the west side of Tennessee.
It's harder to get to the Smokies, but easier to get to Colorado and the Ozarks.

Air fares are much better to Knoxville these days. I found a $150 round trip fare last week.”

“Trail turtle, Those are not Iraqi's on the internet. They are conspiracy kooks just like you. You have found each other, because of your mutual paranoia and naivety.

You need to get your cowardly @ss to Iraq and talk to some real Iraqis.”

“I have athlete's foot fungus.”

“Ahhhhhhhhhh. The Fungus amung us.

Fungus is one of the most amazing lifeforms when you think about it. It first hit me in college when I left some coffee grinds for two long and saw the happy ecosystem. I thought"

Damn, that crap can grow anywhere on almost anything. I mean it's extracting the necessary nutrients from wet coffee grinds and fluorishing!

just think if we could do the same?”

“You KNOW fungus can grow anywhere if it can grow under your own sweaty pelotas.”

“> You need to get your cowardly @ss
> to Iraq and talk to some real Iraqis.

Why the hell would I do that? It's not very complicated what they want. They want us out and they want to choose their OWN government.

LOL, I can picture myself in Iraq...

You haven't met me, but I definitely look like an American Republican. I can't hide my accent either, no American can. Anyone outside of the U.S. can spot an American instantly when they open their mouth from their accent. We have very distinctive speech patterns compared to rest of world. It's not something we think about here but we sound to them like the Chinese sound to us.

And given that...

It's not like they are going to stop to ask me my socio-economic political views before kidnapping me or shooting me. LOL.

The troops can't even leave the greenzone without multi-vehicle heavily armed convoy.
CNN reporting 7 more heavily armed military dead right now.

If I went to Iraq, what would I do? Be like the politicians and hide in the green zone? Talk to their hand-picked puppets?

LOL, so no, you won't find me in Iraq.

I definitely already understand what the Iraqis want. They want to choose their own government, they want to change their lifestyle which has been horrific since '91 invasion, then sanctions, and now destroying the cities, and they want the U.S. out.

BTW, as another data point, did you know Saddam provided universal healthcare to Iraqis pre-91? If you got sick you went to the state clinic. Baghdad had the most modern hospitals in the arab world, before the sanctions. They also produced 85% of their pharmaceuticals domestically.

Maybe you should be the one over there trying to explain "we are killing you for your own good", LOL. Naah, you'd hide in the greenzone. Either that or you'd leave and shoot some people for kicks.

Now this is quite humorous... in Bush's "occupation elections" which are meant to try and give the occupation some political cover, a funny thing is happening. Aside from the fact that none of the top people are actually being voted on.. something else is funny, LOL.

You see, all candidates have to be U.S. approved, and anytime they pick a candidate and it becomes public knowledge, the candidate gets assassinated.

So in the January election, there is no list of candidates. People are going to "vote" but there are no candidate names lists anywhere, LOL.

Iraqis are being told to vote, but no one has any idea who they are voting for, and none of the people are picked by the Iraqis, LOL.

Tooo funny. This is actually worse than Saddam's elections.

At least Saddam put his own name on the ballot (even if it was the only one, LOL).
last edited: 1/06/05 5:32:02 PM”

“What does the war in Iraq have to do with ball fungus? Don't hijack the subject of this thread.”

“Well, if it's "cowards," ya want... LMAO”

“I wonder if Fungus could grow on Cocaine?”

“Can you imagine hopped up fungus? Hey how about fungus growing on "schrooms"?”

“You guys crack me up, LOL ;)

Now you know fungus & shrooms are dangerous don't you?

http://www.bluewillowpages.com/mushroomexpert/deadly.html”

“It's ok as long as you don't scratch your 'shrooms & eat your fungus...”

“I'm not a democrat or republican. I tend to have conservative views but journey to the left for certain issues. I don't like Bush and didn't like the thought of Kerry.

My environmental side thinks Bush's policies are just short of criminal, but apparently more people in this country wanted him than didn't, and that's our system. I just try to stay informed about the issues that are important to me and act when I can. Like the bumper sticker I saw says "Actions speak louder than bumper stickers". We'll see what the next 4 years brings.

I don't believe the war in Iraq was necessary; however, we're there and we have to finish what we started. Hopefully we'll get out without loosing too many more lives, American or Iraqi.

That's my serious, political 2.08 cents (increased for inflation).”

“I tend to snort through my right nostril. I wonder if it's because I'm right-handed?”

“I think that's true, BM. Studies show the most-picked nostril is usually the snortier one.”

“I would think if you're right handed that you would pick your left nostril. It's a brain hemisphere thang with the face, no?

I can make my left eye wink but not...............oh my GOD!!!!! I can do both know! WTF DOES THAT MEAN??????????????????????????? I hope I can't snarl both sides of my mouth.................. Nope. Just the left.......

BUT WTF IS UP WITH AMBIDEXTERWINKING????????????????????????

It should be opposite of the favored hand. #&%!$. I gotta get this checked out! What if my lobes are crisscrossing signals or something??????????????????????

I'M TOATALY FREAKING OUT ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!”

“Easy BM, sounds to me like you've just developed a latent talent, probably in your genes from waaaay back. Embrace your new-found powers.

Personally, I can't get the proper depth with opposite-side picking. Maybe I just have to try harder.

Heck, crossed signals made John Travolta a "Phenom"... of course, that was a brain tumor...”

“> we're there and we have to finish what we
> started.

But what exactly did we start? What was our goal? To Democratize Iraq? They could've done that 90 days out.

If what we 'started' is what I believe it to be - stealing taxpayer money for military contractors and taking the Iraqi oil... well, how do we 'finish' that.

The military contractors are always going to want more money and, well, you can't carry 200 billion barrels of oil out of the country.

So if we are there to finish what we started, then we will be there forever, or at least 15-20 years.”

“What we started was changing the political system in Iraq, regardless of our purpose. Personally I don't believe we (Americans) are saddled with/have the right to spread democracy around the world. I think that's actually impossible. Democracy, by definition, cannot be imposed, but that's what the current administration wants to do around the world, especially in the Middle East. Draw your own conclusion as to WHY they want to do it. All I'm saying is we can't go into a country, demolish it's government and leave.

and yes, we will be there for much longer than any of us want, especially those who have family there, yours truly included.”

“> What we started was changing the political
> system in Iraq, regardless of our purpose.

But did we actually start that... changing the political structure? Did we actually do that / are we actually doing that? I'm not so sure, at all.

To me control of the oil is not reconcilable with Democracy. We can choose either Democracy or oil control, and if we choose oil control, that means we'll be putting some kind of a tyrannical government in place.

It looks like they want to make this government pass for a "Democracy-face", but it's not a democracy if the people can't vote the government out... and they can't.

Jr. is trying to do the same in Haiti (after ousting Democratically elected... and popular with the poor Aristide).

The Republican's idea of 'democracy' is Democracy wrapping paper with tyranny inside.

So the wrapping paper may be changing, but I don't think any political change is going to occur. If anything, the people will get ultra-frustrated with the hypocrisy. I know that's what drives Palestinians nuts. Not that it's an occupation, but the endless lies day in and day out and the hypocrisy of everything that is said.

With Saddam they had an honest dictatorship, LOL.

It's the lies & hypocrisy that create suicidal nutcases wanting to destroy the world in my opinion. There have been lots of cases of people living under dictatorships relatively peacefully, but I don't know of any cases where the people in power call a tyrannical government structure a democracy and it stays peaceful.

It's kind of like the irrationality around Kerry's candidacy. The ribbons/medals had nothing to do with virtually anything, but the pro-Bush people felt Kerry was lying about it and it made them hate him beyond any reasonable measure of sensible good judgement.
last edited: 1/06/05 9:09:09 PM”

“Kerry actually WAS a flip-flopper. He proved it in many interviews to me, which is why I didn't like him. I didn't care about his military service from the 30+ years ago.

As for Iraq, I didn't say "political purpose" I said political system, reagardless of our purpose. In other words, whether we went there with oil on the brain or not, our intention was to remove Saddam and "install" democracy, in effect changing their political system from a dictatorship to a "democracy". As for oil, it's pretty obvious that both Democratic and Republican politicians care more about oil rich countries than countries without oil. They've proven that time & again. It's up to the American people to decide whether we are going to continue to elect people with that adgenda or not.

I don't think the average Replublican's idea of democracy is any different than the average Democrat's - Government by the people for the people. Democratic politicians have consistantly, with as few exceptions as republicans, demonstrated poor judgement in foreign affairs.

As for Aristide, he was a crook and not well liked by the majority. He ruled by force and the poor only backed him out of fear.”

“Well said athikerol.”

“> Kerry actually WAS a flip-flopper.

You mean he was rational and uncomfortable with the Iraq policy? I'll never get how willingness to change one's mind is seen as a negative. To me, unwillingness to change one's mind and correct mistakes is improper behavior.

As to removing Saddam, yes, I'll agree that was one purpose, but I do not believe installing "Democracy" in Iraq was the purpose, that is, unless, the peculiar tyrannical political model that America (largely 'foreign affairs' expert Republicans) has been pushing of late is what has become known as 'Democracy'.

And again, I disagree. Aristide was a crook, but he was a popular crook and he ABSOLUTELY had the support of the majority of Haitians.

The only people who didn't want aristide were the some 20,000 rich white business pricks who want to farm the Haitians for cheap labor and that's the damn truth.

Prior to Jr. giving Guy 20,000 guns to overthrow Aristide they had a working Constitution, working Judicial system, working election system, Aristide had been elected and was set to step down in a few years, with new candidates to emerge.

What they've done now is scuttled the Constitution and installed a gun-backed Tyranny that is pushing the interests of the 20,000 white pricks that want the slave labor. And this is the truth.

The installation of tyrannical governments is what has become and is becoming known as "American Democracy".

It is *not* Democracy. It is tyranny, and while I personally benefit from it economically, I do not agree with it and will never support it because of the human rights issues.

The people of a country deserve the right to choose their OWN leaders without violence.

We are not imposing a "political" system on Iraq, we are imposing U.S. puppets for economic and other purposes, and the people can not vote these people out of office, and that is why they are packing explosives around their waists and running into the dining centers of our troops.”

“As to "foreign affairs errors", the largest in all of U.S. history, and probably the root cause of all the problems we have with muslims today was the REPUBLICAN (Eisenhower) replacement of Mossadegh in Iran and the installation of the Shah who brutalized the Iranians for 25 years in our name, and for the company that ultimately became British Petroleum.

And here we are, doing it again, and again, and again.

The greatest force *against* Democracy in the world is us because we want oil control or other things and in a real Democracy the people aren't going to let us do that.

The only response they have to these imposed governments is violence...

... and so that is what they do...

... and that is what they will do, until they are either all dead (we go Nazi), they destroy us, or they are free (from us).
last edited: 1/06/05 9:54:43 PM”

“Unfortunately, Turtle, it seems from reading your postings that you are intent on putting words in people's mouths, so this will be my last reponse to your comments on this subject.

Admitting you made a mistake after a review of previously unconsidered information is a strength and a positive thing. It's the ability to say you were wrong and it's important. More people should do that. My problem with Kerry is that he changes his mind even in the absence of new facts. He shifts with the political winds, as do almost all politicians. If it's popular, he backs it; if it's not, he says he's against it. He is consistantly inconsistant. Even during his interview on the Dr. Phil show about his personal life he demostrated this.

As for Aristide, he and his people instilled fear in the majority, stole from, tortured and murdered at will and he was not popular, as you seem to think. His "election" was highly suspect. His administration trafficked drugs. I think sometimes, as with both Saddam & Aristide, the people of the country begin to feel helpless and accept what they consider an inevitable evil. That's not to say that I agree with our (American) involvement, but a person like that is indefensible, IMO.

Lastly, to make excuses for people who kill innocents, whether Palestinian, Israeli, Iraqi, American or anyone is nothing more than rationalization of an evil act and is detrimental to the solution. Maybe you've forgotten that the people being killed by suicide bombers are more often women, children and fellow civilians than US military personnel, not that I wish it were reversed.

I'll be glad when our men and women come home.

Learn - Think - Act...”

“>Maybe you've forgotten that the people being
>killed by suicide bombers are more often
>women, children and fellow civilians than US
>military personnel, not that I wish it were
>reversed.

If we are talking body counts, by far and away, the most people being killed are being killed by the U.S. military. A year ago a Navy secretary was giving a speech and said (accidentally?) that we were killing 2000-4000 a month in Iraq and the U.S. media reports less than 1% of those, but it reports just about every single one that the insurgents kill.

The military will only report "we got 25 insurgents" like once a month. I wonder if they actually have an employee who counts the press releases to make sure they always allow the release of a death count that is lower than the number of people reportedly killed by insurgents.

So, if your 'morality' is defined by body counts well, the indefensible is the commanders telling them to kill these people.

You do know why they have 'curfews' at 4pm don't you?

Its for rules of engagement. The military basically just shoots anyone on the streets after 4pm, then they call in U.S. military graves detail and they scoop the bodies up and dump them in mass graves.

But, they do say they are more humane. Apparently the graves detail buries them such that their bodies are lined up to point toward Mecca, LOL.

As to Aristide... they had a Democracy (a REAL one), he was elected by popular vote, like 60%, his term was up I think next year, and now they have none of this. No Constitution, no elections, nothing but ANOTHER U.S. military backed tyrant controlled by a bunch of rich white guys who want to farm the people for cheap labor... probably to make Nikes.
last edited: 1/06/05 10:52:17 PM”

“I am one with my ambidexterwinkiness.”

“Shewy! Just got caught up on this whole thread. I must say I find it simply scrumptious that so many people are still bothered by Bush winning the election. 2 months later and the left is still dumbfounded and bitter.

Keep up the good work girls! :)”

“Or that Kerry is a "Flip flopper"?”