Bush making America safer in the future

“"The if you're against it you're unpatriotic mantra isn't true and isn't helpful."

That wasn’t the crux of my post Bison. It irritates me when liberals say, “Oh I support the troops. They are heroes.”, and then in the next breath start their chicken little doom and gloom and say how we aren’t making a difference and can’t even admit that good things are happening in Iraq. They don’t want to talk about the 140,000 brave troops that are serving with honor and sacrifice. They’d rather talk about the few who are abusing prisoners, over and over and over and over. They chose to do nothing but politicize the war for their own aims…unseat Bush and they will use anything they can get their stinking hands on to do it.”

“I don't disagree with you there Nigal, I'm just saying that using certain terms offputs those with sincere beliefs who can have a reasonable discussion regarding the issue.”

“Nigal, put on a uniform before you lecture the rest of us on patriotism, okay?

Bison, your assertion that the people who disagreed with the war did so because they don't understand what we're trying to accomplish is patently false.”

“It was the "gloom and doom chicken(hawk)little" stuff that so many went along with that got us in this mess.

"Iraq is a direct threat to the saftey of America......we must invade NOW"

What good things may be happening in Iraq are NOT THE PROBLEM!!!

Its the negative things that ARE A PROBLEM!!!

If you ignore the negatives and simply wave the flag, things will fester and any good that is done may well be undone.”

“"Iraqis are getting schools, hospitals, power and water."

Dying in squalor, the children betrayed by broken promises
(Filed: 05/06/2004)


Dying in squalor, the children betrayed by broken promises Baghdad doctors despair at hospital's filthy conditions and lack of drugs”

“Sometimes if someone is offput by something that is said, chances are, they are guilty of the very thing they claim to not believe. It's like yelling "Hey A-hole!" on the street and someone looking. Basiclly, only the A-holes should be looking for the one who called his name.”

“Bison, your assertion that the people who disagreed with the war did so because they don't understand what we're trying to accomplish is patently false

Actually, phaedrus, that's exactly what I observed as well. When I first put forth the strategy of hegemony, it was met with blank stares. Oh it was all about WMD and terrorist ties and all that cr@p.”

“LMAO, Nigal!

I've done that at work before.

Well, not in a library, but when I worked with "The Dirty People" it was a great way to crack up the joint.”

“Sure Mutt, but hegemony wouldn't sell so we were lied to about the WMD.

I smelled that in summer '02.”

“Mark I have stated many times my feelings on the negative things that have happened as well as the pretenses for our going in.

I can't seem to remember you ever speeking a posative word about what we have accomplished there.”

“"Iraqis are getting schools, hospitals, power and water."


From : The other struggle for power in Iraq

[The} U.S. Agency for International Development says that pre-conflict generating levels were "around 4,400 megawatts."

The authority's latest average, for the week ending June 4, is 4,144 megawatts, and a distribution map shows that two-thirds of Iraq only received a power supply for five to eight hours a day: except for two small areas nowhere else got more than 10 hours.”

“And as we've discussed previously, the public rationale for war was and is as important as the outcome. Your input was certainly valid, but it doesn't excuse the attempts to mislead the public.

Nigal,
They don’t want to talk about the 140,000 brave troops that are serving with honor and sacrifice. They’d rather talk about the few who are abusing prisoners, over and over and over and over. They chose to do nothing but politicize the war for their own aims…unseat Bush and they will use anything they can get their stinking hands on to do it."
Nigal
08:58:17 AM
06/17/04


It's pretty clear which side of the fence you and I are on. When you start your "libs this and libs that" spiel, I'll have to assume you're referring to me, since we've been on polar opposite sides of this debate from the beginning. Again, if you're going to lecture anyone on the way they treat politics in light of the troops, you should be certain you understand where people are coming from.”

“Phead, I wasn’t speaking about patriotism. Again, as always, you read everything as you WANT to, not as it is written. It’s not about flag waving. It’s about ignoring the facts and the disrespect it shows the hard working troops.”

“"your assertion that the people who disagreed with the war did so because they don't understand what we're trying to accomplish is patently false."

Phaedrus.

It is? Wait a sec, let me reread this thread and others..... Nope it's not false.”

“Mutt – the blank stares were basically shock that you could openly advocate for an imperial policy.”

“Examples, Bison?”

“Violin, did they teach you to read at Rutgers? I said they are GETTING, not they HAVE. Just more negative liberal impatiens of a conservative administration. What? As soon as we take control these things happen over night?

Loosen your hockey helmet and read slower.”

“Nigal, you're missing the point, IMO.

I'll grant that there are good things happening for Iraqis if you'll grant that we've paid too high a price for it.”

“Who's ignoring the facts?

The section on the electricity situation is pretty clear. Here's a couple of parts from the story about the Central Teaching Hospital for Children in Baghdad:

"If I had a wish-list I wouldn't know where to begin," said Suzan Al-Zubaidy, the duty doctor, who earns about £80 a month. We could start with chemotherapy drugs, proper antibiotics, drips and blood transfusion sets. That alone would save a lot of lives."
[...]
But 14 months into a US-led administration, the children are still dying, the supply of drugs is still erratic and the specialists still rely on diagnostic equipment that is decades old.

In the wards the walls are crumbling, bare electric wires hang from the ceiling and dirty water runs down the walls from broken pipes.

With the daytime temperature touching 45C and due to rise further there is no air conditioning and many parents place their children on the floor next to broken windows in the corridor to provide them with some relief.

Only four of the nine wards in the hospital are open at all. "Of course Saddam created this," said Miss Al-Zubaidy. "But the Americans promised us so many times that they would end it. And to date they have done nothing to help at all."
[...]
"The incubators are not working and instruments are not available even for routine tests," said Dr Adil El-Badri, who runs the unit for premature births. "The whole hospital needs serious repairs but it seems there is no money."

In the cancer ward the parents have little idea who is to blame for the drug shortage and the squalor. They spend their days huddled around their dying children, praying for a miracle.
[...]
"You westerners always come here, you look, you shake your heads and then you go away. And nothing changes. It's no better here this year than it was last year.

"Always promises, just promises."”

“Here was the rationale for the war Phaedrus:

1. Saddam has used WMD.
2. Saddam has attacked neighbors and has threatened to attack the US.
3. Saddam has communicated with Al Qaeda (the media doublespeak on this is not only unbelievable, as I posted earlier, but unconscionable.)
4. Al Qaeda has attacked us, and if they could get weapons from Saddam they would use them against us.
5. Intelligence suggests that Saddam still has stockpiles of WMD and the intention to create more.
6. Saddam was given an opportunity to document what he did with the stockpiles that we know he did have.
7. He did not document what happened to those stockpiles.

I have absolutely no problem with this line of reasoning at all. As a matter of fact I'd be frightened if someone was leading this country and didn't go to war in these circumstances.”

“OK - I get it now. You meant that they'll be getting those things someday.

My bad.”

“I'll grant that, Phaedrus.

Violin, yes, its the imperialism, stupid(not you).

Whoa, Nigal, "hockey helmet"???
You are sooooo mean.”

“It doesn't surprise me that you would chose top form your entire opinion based on one or even a few examples Violin. It says what you want to hear (and perpetuate). It's case closed for you. The world sucks and that's that. Right?”

“Bison, you make a strong case for the buildup of military presence in the Gulf that forced inspections to resume in Iraq.”

“Nigal - Can you give me just one example (besides what Bush said the other day) to back up your assertion that those things have gotten better?”

“Oh, I see Bison is clueless as well.”

“Too high a price Phead? We lost thousands and thousands freeing the French. I know each and every single life that has been lost is a precious thing and a tragedy. But when comparing the scale of what we have done to the losses we can hardly call it a failure. And before you even try to pain me as a disconnected observer of it all I have two young family members in the mideast theater in harm’s way.

We have a long, long history of fighting for other’s freedom and just because we enjoy our freedoms doesn’t mean we should just turn a blind eye.”

“Whatsamatta, Violin, can't figure out why AQ is attacking Westerners instead of the House?”

“Argh. Mutt's about to begin the global domino-hegemony-deny-terrorists-a-geography-so-they-can't-be-a-threat-anymore rant.”

“Is the truth that painful, phaedrus?”

“Yes V, our own congressional leaders (many democrats) came back from a trip and were astounded at the difference between what was really going on there and what the media was showing. The situation was much better as far as restoring infrastructure than the media was letting on.”

“Bison, you make a strong case for the buildup of military presence in the Gulf that forced inspections to resume in Iraq."
Phaedrus
09:36:06 AM
06/17/04

Oh I guess I forgot one.

8. Saddam has spent 10 years subverting and outright denying access to inspectors in violation of the peace treaty ending the first Gulf War.

I think 10 years was long enough.”

“Mutt, you've yet to explain to me how denying Al-qaeda a geographical base is going to keep them from acting on a global scale, especially in the light of increased popular support and (probably) funding.”

“Right, Bison, he hid those massive stockpiles of WMD that we discovered after the war.”

“You're right phaedrus, even without a geographical base, they can just slip into the next 3 dimensions and do all the detailed planning and coordination and training and fund raising from there. My bad.”

“Nigal, I've gone over this with you, I believe. We had other options for bringing an end to human rights abuses in Iraq.”

“Is it so hard to imagine that, in the computer age, planning can be coordinated without a massive gathering place?”

“I don't know where you are going mutt, but my guess is that they are employing Sun Tzu's strategy of disrupting alliances to isolate the enemy.”

“Can't we argue religion or something, for a change?”

“If you're speaking of military training, I'll grant that they will need places for that. I'll also say that, by splitting these into smaller groups, they can do such training almost as efficiently, but with a lower profile.”

“Is it so hard to imagine that, in the computer age, planning can be coordinated without a massive gathering place?

Silly.”

“He was either hiding something or wanted others to think he was hiding something, either way, post 9/11 I would deal with any possible threat upfront especially when someone has been given the opportunity to show that they are not a threat and does not do so.”

“"Nigal, I've gone over this with you, I believe. We had other options for bringing an end to human rights abuses in Iraq."

Yes, 12 more years of ignoring the will of the world would have been much better. Yes, it would have spared the 1,000 odd lives we have lost but how many Iraqis died in that first 12 years under Saddam? How many more would have died in another 12? Admit it, it wasn't working then and it wouldn't work again.”

“my guess is that they are employing Sun Tzu's strategy of disrupting alliances to isolate the enemy

LOL - no. They're attacking Western expats because they're trying to bring down the oil industry. Economics, Violin. That's how they're trying to bring down the House. Plus they want muslims to know they're not killing muslims.”

“Nigal, the "will of the world"?

Uh, my point was that by calling for Saddam to be tried for human rights abuses, we could have eroded his support from western countries.”

“Silly."
Mutt
09:51:25 AM

Spell it out for me if you can.

I'm of the opinion you're just bluffing.”

“1. Saddam has used WMD.

WMD's that we gave him. Where was the outrage when he gassed the Kurds? Where was the outrage when he used them against Iran (on our behalf)?

2. Saddam has attacked neighbors and has threatened to attack the US.

On our behalf against Iran, without any action (military)against the Kurds. If memory serves, during the uprising?

3. Saddam has communicated with Al Qaeda (the media doublespeak on this is not only unbelievable, as I posted earlier, but unconscionable.)

Bison - you are the only one I've heard saying this. You have inside info, then? Even Fox News ran with this for half the day yesterday, before it edited it's story by late afternoon. People on this board have been raked by the right when they make assumptions like this, but this line is creditible when you post it? You're right, it's sure is double speak.


4. Al Qaeda has attacked us, and if they could get weapons from Saddam they would use them against us.

With Al-Queda now in the area, an area of terrorism that we created, wouldn't you think that AQ would have soemthing by now? Look, if they are still there, there are a bunch of pissed off people that could lead AQ to the stockpile to used against us at least in theater. The lack of WMD use in theater some what supports that fact that they no longer exsist in Iraq. Remember wen the wall fell, Soviet nuke peeps were out there selling there knowledge to the highest bidder. We see none of that here.


5. Intelligence suggests that Saddam still has stockpiles of WMD and the intention to create more.

I'd like to see your sources on this. Seems as though you have some pretty inside info. Last time I check, Saddam was in our hands. How can he still have the intention to make more?


6. Saddam was given an opportunity to document what he did with the stockpiles that we know he did have.

He did and did give it to the UN and to us; however, if you remember, we dismissed these submissions as a stall tactic. Even if it was, Bush did not have the patiences needed to build a case for war. Everything in this situation was "rush, rush", as to get things rolling before a case could be made against us going in, or the people would wake up.


7. He did not document what happened to those stockpiles.


Yes, he did. Please see above post.”

“lol - bluffing? That's rich. Phaedrus, you're engaging in the ol' "shifting the burden of proof" fallacy. The current MO of *global* terrorist org's is a geographic base with financial support. Take those away, and simple logic tells you that MO won't work anymore. You're saying that this goal isn't worth anything because for the terrorists it's just simply a matter of them getting online. The burden is on you to show that your idea is not laughable on the face of it.”

“"Uh, my point was that by calling for Saddam to be tried for human rights abuses, we could have eroded his support from western countries."

Yes, the will of the UN (as impotent as it is). We had a complete embargo on Iraq and it did work. Oil for food worked wonders…for corruption. Charging him with human rights abuses wasn’t going to make him give himself up.”

“"Too high a price Phead? We lost thousands and thousands freeing the French. I know each and every single life that has been lost is a precious thing and a tragedy. But when comparing the scale of what we have done to the losses we can hardly call it a failure....."


I might be pointing out an obvious apples and oraganes thing here, but we were liberating a counrty under an occupation of a country that had a leader hell bent on taking over teh world and had the means to do it.

Here, we "liberated" a country from a dictator, much like Panama, but on a much larger scale.

If you want to compare Kuwait liberation to the French liberation, I'd buy it.”