American POW's

“im not so sure if we have that much support from the world. but who cares? if its the right thing to do, then it needs doing. i consider it the lesser of two evils, the greater evil is doing nothing, and taking the chance that iraq is elevated from nuisance to very nasty world power”

“It's ok for CNN to poke cameras at Iraqi POWs who are laying wretchedly on the dirt but apparently not for Iraq to display their POWs. Hypocracy!

Only a retard would expect Iraq's to fight a conventional war when they are outgunned. Try and think outside the box. There's nothing immoral about fighting an unconventional war and using gorilla tactics, especially when it's your country.”

“After World War 1, every civilized country in the world realized that man's inhumanity to man could be horrendous. That is why we have Rules of War. Because there is always an Afterwar when we all have to live together again in peace. Iraqi pretending to surrender then attacking shows how little respect for their own countrymen that these animals have. They have to know what that will do to other Iraqis who don't want to die.

And the idea that we knew this would happen so we shouldn't be upset boils my blood. Those of us who support this war know why we are there. Hussein is a murderous bastard and his regime has to be removed from the world stage before he has the capapility to spread his barbarity across the globe.

If you can look at the cold blooded execution of soldiers from either side and shrug your shoulders you are one souless person.”

“Forrest made a really good point.”

“Naive. This is a war, not a sporting event.”

“"gorilla" tactics? you mean like walking around on your knuckles and beating your chest and screeching loudly? o wait you mean "guerilla" tactics. heh.”

“It always seems that when one side starts losing, the Geneva Convention goes out the window.”

“newsflash! iraq is not a civilized country! hello!”

“Why aren't they? Do you consider yourself superior to an Iraqi? They drive cars. they own businesses. they have electricity?”

“Actually, the ploy of using the "white flag", and then killing U.S soldiers is very good for the Iraqi side. Imagine this happening a few more times...pretty soon the U.S soldiers will ignore the surrender and kill every Iraqi soldier....which will work in favour for the Iraqi regime....."See, if you surrender, the Evil Americans will kill you...so you better stay put and fight".”

“hyway stop intentionally missing my point. you know what i mean. husseins regime is not civilized. gosh, theyre terrorists, dontcha know?”

“Hussein's regime is recognised by the UN and by other "civilized" countries around the world as capapble of joining in on treaties and contracts with the world. They should still be held to that standard.”

“war is hell
that life ; if you let the man do that he want the world will go to hell”

“we will hold them to that standard. just dont be surprised when they dont do it willingly.”

“I am not surprised that they are doing it, but I can still be outraged.”

“Your clever responses seem equivocal.
Do you denounce the treatment of the POWs, or are the invaders being treated like they would anywhere else in the world?”

“I didn't really read all the posts on this thread but got the gist of it. Apparently, there is a difference of opinion. Duh...however, fact remains that we are at war with Iraq, for whatever reasons our government has found or decided upon. We may never know the truest reason as to why we are at war. Oil and liberation of Irag may just be part of the plan and not ALL of it. There may be more to Saddam than we the public are aware of. Who the hell knows? Fact remains, we are at war with Iraq. We have lost soldiers to enemy fire, friendly fire, accidents, deliberate actions from one comrade in particular, and now have soldiers taken as POW's. Some of those POW's were executed. War means loss of life and those who are there, realize that. They do their best to stay alive. I know I would. I agree that those who are sadistic, brutal and unforgiving should reap the blows we may give them. The major difference on each side is that one is fighting psychologically and the other is fighting strategically. Who is to say that the first Iraqis who surrendered were not told to do so to familiarize us with the "white flag"? Sounds like a #&%!$ed up game on their part. How can we trust that now? How can we trust ANY OF THEM now? I say blow the #&%!$ out of the whole country and may the very innocent find safety from our wrath. After today, I am pi$$ed. I am pi$$ed because they do not give a #&%!$ about anything or anyone except torture and themselves. I, for one, do not want this #&%!$ coming over to my country. If they are not stopped, it will. #&%!$ Allah, too.”

“That was an F and U and C and K in all the symbolized spaces!!!!”

“I'm glad to see this debate happening here. If were were in Iraq, we would not be able to voice our individual views.

But, lets not loose sight of the truth. The Iraqi soldiers are everyone and everywere. They train women and children to be assasins. My opinion...don't trust any of em. Shoot em all and move on. I'm not a violent person, and I am not cruel, but this is war, and as I've stated before, we must do what we must do in order to get beyond this place. If we have to become killers, than so be it. We will not remain killers. We have a vision and we want a better place for the people of the world. The USA does not want to rule the world, but, we want peace, security, and a place where people can live life with dignity and happiness.

I'm saddened by the outcome of today's activities. It is now apparant that Iraq will not honor any agreements or treaties, so, why should we honor the Iraqi's. They are the enemy, and even the civilians are soldiers, let them be treated as such. If we treat them civilly, then we will rue that act of humanity. We must remain vigiliant and remember that in war, there are no rules.

Rules of war...there aren't any.

There never was a good war, nor a bad peace.”

“1. Win

Iraq is playing to win, and if you dont think they have a chance then perhaps you might want to review Vietnam. They didnt have a chance against our superior firepower either”

“We would not be in Iraq now,
if there was no oil.”

“My heart goes out to the POWs and their families, as I fear for their lives.

I'm not surprised at the treatment of our men and woman, as I'm sure the Iraqis are pretty pissed at us and will take out their aggression in any and every way. They live in a different world than us and treat people differently, so frankly, we should not be surprised at how they'll treat their prisoners. God be with our POWs.”

“Amen to that Buddur, especially the woman. I pray for strength for her, and them all.

"Don't forget the Pope came out against the war, and said it was
u-n-j-u-s-t-i-f-i-e-d."


Frankly, what the Pope says about war is worthless imo. What did the Pope say about WWII again? Something along the lines of "let the jews die"? The Pope doesn't have the intelligence that the US gov does. I'm sure Saddam wasn't 100% truthful when he spoke with the Pope.”

“i pray and hope for the best.

honestly, i feel guilty. i'm 28, why is a 19 yr old being exposed to combat, capture, and death? i've got ten years on some of these kids, i should be the one exposed to this kind horror and fear.

i should be over there, dammitt.”

“Iraq is playing to win, and if you dont think they have a chance then perhaps you might want to review Vietnam

Absolutley right. Saddam is doing just what analysts said he would do - slow down the advance and inflict as many casualties as he can. Just wait for the casualty reports when our forces are near and in Baghdad.

America's achilles heel is public opinion. If Saddam can exploit anti-war sentiment, he has a shot of ending the war with an armistice instead of unconditional surrender.

Really, the U.S. military is charged with an impossible task: complete the war in days while inflicting little to no "collateral" damage and sustain no casualties.

As the military begins to fail on all these points, anti-war sentiment is going to rise.

Neocons who were swaggering before the war about how it would last no more than 2 days would do well to realize how adolescent they were and how this attitude has set unrealistic expectations among the public at large. In a sense, they played right into Saddam's hand (i.e. played the part of Saddam's "useful idiots"). Borderline traitorous if you ask me.

And now the neocons in this forum are outraged that Saddam isn't playing by the rules. It is to laugh, except it isn't funny.”

“"Rules of war".... what is the word for this, something that makes no sense. I can't come up with it this morning.....”

“OMG! Mutt are you ok? Did it hurt? :}

sorry this is just the first time me and mutt sort of agreed on anything... shocking.”

“Mutt, you aren't outraged? I think that you are taking pleasure in the fact that American's being executed help you feel better about yourself and your poliotics. You disgust me.”

“First I need to say I think the American prisoners need to be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention - and I pray that they come out of this without further harm. But I found the proclomations of Rumsfeld hypocritical. The Administration decided not to afford the prisoners at Guantanamo bay the status of POWs. By the same standard how come Iraq can't define these prisoners at enemy combatants? - The treatment of both sets of prisoners is wrong!”

“I agree with mutt too.

hyway, take a pill. You wanted war and now you have it. War is cruel. If you're going to get histrionic at this stage, you're going to be basket case when the war really starts. We're not fighting smurfs. If you haven't got the stomach for it, perhaps you should be quaking in your basement.”

“Oxymoron”

“Its war they wanted..........


Rumsfeld is a twinkie”

“Mutt, you aren't outraged? I think that you are taking pleasure in the fact that American's being executed help you feel better about yourself and your poliotics. You disgust me

Outraged? Yes. Surprised? Not at all. The rest of your post is emotional histrionics, as Gear Slut pointed out. It appears conservatives form some of their opinions based on emotion, too.”

“Would the common people of America be any different if we were to capture invading Russians or French? Oh, wait a second. What’s wrong with this statement?

The third world way of life isn’t barbarous to a country that has been through 3 as kicking wars in 28 years…it’s just life. They don’t even know the hell Geneva is.”

“Mutt, Don't hide your liberal socialist anti-war views behind a so-called conservative view on foreign policy. Other TT'ers have expressed their anti-war views openly. I suggest you do the same.”

“Oh, I'm not anti-war. I'm not terribly convinced Iraq is the top priority right now, and I've argued that point. But I've discussed in length why I support this war.

I'll tell you what I am, though. I'm anti-neocon and their cavalier and antiseptic perspective on this war. Saddam has shocked and awed the neocons with his brutality against American POWs. And now your emotional outbursts seem even more puerile than your macho swaggering before the war.”

“I suggest you take a chill pill, Mutt. You might burst a blood vessel in your brain.

I don't think the "neocons" as you like to call them are really that shocked by the brutality of the Iraqis on our POW's. We saw how brutal they can be during the first war. They are using the fact that the Iraqis have little regard for human life to help galvinize support for this war.”

“Silly me. I actually thought you had an argument to back up your statement: your liberal socialist anti-war views

You keep whiffing, man.”

“Gee folks, don't you think that perhaps some of the reasons for being against military intervention was so our "boys" wouldn't get captured, tortured, killed, maimed, hurt, blown-up, shell-shocked or otherwise become a casualty? So many of you took that "If you're not with us, you're against us" stance and rejoiced when the news of the first missile was shot. Well, its gotten ugly now, hasn't it. Now, you're outraged that Iraqis are not fighting fair.
I wish that those U.S. casualties hadn't been there and were able to watch their kids grow up or grow up themselves.”

“No argument Mutt. I just like seeing you defend your lame position.”

“No argument Mutt

That's certainly an understatement. I have yet to see anything but ad homs from you.”

“the reality is that we can't be stunned if the iraqi's fight back, even if they hate saddam they may not want to see their nation under attack. the sad result may be high american casualties.”

“What's really amazing is how the Bush Admin. has completely backpeddled on their "sure and swift" victory in Iraq.

From the opening salvo and Bush's speech that night, he made it clear that this could be a drawn out and long conflict -- A COMPLETE TURN-AROUND FROM THE RHETORIC HE AND HIS ADMIN HAVE BEEN SPEWING ALL ALONG!

So, hey, they lied to the American population once again to get their little war, which may turn into a big war. And I'm sure it won't be last time the American public will be misled by this corrupt governing body.”

“You're right, Rosey. The trick is to get us into the war with rhetoric about a quick and easy vistory. Once we're in, public support is galvanized by us finding what saddam was hiding, by the tactics that the iraqis use (which our military commanders, and thus our commander in chief HAD to know beforehand), and by emotional appeals about those american casualties not having died in vain. We need to believe that as humans.

If we can uncover a political prison camp of some sort, each of those prisoners will be paraded out to tell his story to "embedded" journalists along with a translator and anything else needed to get their stories back to the US.

The crazy thing is that all of this is extraneous to WHY we're there in the first place.

I pray the cost of this administration's power grab is minimal.”

“They other thing that has urked me lately is this move to try and equate people calling for peace with anti-troop sentiment. It's bogus and it's wrong.

If there is one thing that people learned from the Vietnam war it is that you don't blame the grunt, you blame the leadership.”

“Rosey, you hit the nail on the head as to why I have been relatively silent on the issue on these threads. There is no distinction between the two here. You can't express a difference in ideology here without being labeled a freakin' commie or liberal or unamerican or whatever. Tired of being labeled by people that listen to nothing but what they think...”

“How could any of you possibly be suprised at the way the POWs are being treated?

Its war. We are fighting with a country and people that don't value the same things we value. We are on their soil, invading their homeland. What else could you possibly have expected??

If some SOB drove his tank down the main street in my hometown, I might not go up against him with my bb gun . . .but you can sure bet I would lie in wait for the less prepared and less well armed supply convoy!!!!

Yes, it sucks. Yes, its horrible.



DUH!!!!!! Its war!!


Next.

I heard a radio survey/interview. The question posed was something like:

"How many American causualities is too many?"


First you had the crop of folks answering "even one death is one too many". That is a non-answer.


Then you had folks coming up with numbers . . .numbers like "25" and "less than 100". I was swearing at the radio and these naive boobs.


ITS WAR!! Once we're there we should f-ing well commit as many troops as needed. If it kills 10,000, 20,000 or more of our troops, I assume that is a risk that Bush weighed.

As if when we reach 100 we're going to say . . oops, that's too many, we have to go home now.

What the heck happened to the country with Vietnam??? 25 deaths . . . .good god.


The reason I bring this up, on this thread, is that some of you seem to embody the same naive, violated outrage.

"what????!! OUR soliders are going to be captured and beaten??? What???? our soliders are going to be tricked and killed??? What . . .you mean smart bombs and stealth bombers can't do this all on network TV during primetime so that I can watch from my barcolounger???!!"


WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FOLKS ON????”

“lee - I am pissed at the act they are not fighting fair, you'r damn right I am. They "played by the rules" the first time we fought them. They didn't execute anyone. If they wanted world sympathy, they should play by the rules. I pissed at the fact the world comunity and the UN have said nothing about this. It's like a "Well, it your fault.....we told you not to go in.." feeling I'm getting. If that's the case ----#&%!$ them, but we'll save that for another time. Agian, what would happen if WE showed/did that kind of stuff? Now, every Iraq surrendering might stand a chance of being shot.....hell, after this kind of #&%!$, I'd say shoot'em all in the leg, then let'em surrender, just to make sure. But that wouldn't fly.”

“Laqtis --

I can't blame you for being pissed off . . .that's for sure.


But I hold very very low expectation that they will "play by the rules".

I mean . . . presumably one of the primary reasons we are in there is because they have caches of bio and chem weapons. They wouldn't ahve them if they didn't intend to use them . . . .

If they do use them . . . I won't be suprised . . .


In fact . . . I'd be suprised if they didn't use them. And use they in such a way that they can inflict the most possible damage they can to our troops.

[ to flip 180 degrees . . . I think it would be kind of ironic if he NEVER used NBC weapons on us . . .and in fact, didn't have any to use if he wanted to).”

“First of all, Bush never said it would be easy. He said it would produce casualties, be a hard fight, and not end overnight. The perception it would be easy came because when the tanks first rolled in there was no opposition, because an entire infantry division capitulated with less than token resistance. The perception was in spite of reporters stating unequivocably that the real resistance would come later. The perception was built on wishful thinking by people who do not have a concept of what war is.

Militarily we will win. But it will not be without cost, both in casualties and in atrocity. That is the nature of war against a ruthless dictator more concerned with self preservation than in the welfare of his citizens. I just hope military victory translates at some point to political and diplomatic victory. If not, we have a tough row to hoe.

I loathe war, but we are there and fight we must. Our troops will have to do what they must. If it comes down to vengeance, the Iraqis will reap the whirlwind.”